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Jancis · **11-20-2014, 03:00 PM**

At the end of the day, what puts food on the table, what the customer wants. Even though numbers aren't the whole truth, they don't lie. Though it's fun to try to think up biological reasons and whatnot for the sake of imagination, in the endÂ aesthetic appeal is a large selling point for the game in environment and models.

Case in point. Lalalalala - just snagged it from lodestone

[Image: KIM1gjl.jpg]

[Image: shut-up-and-take-my-money-9299-2560x16001.jpg]

Fefeya · **11-20-2014, 03:40 PM**

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I believe there is a woman giving birth in the Hawthorne Hut. (not sure though.)

Edgar · **11-20-2014, 03:52 PM**

Part of me understands this thread to an extent.

The other part of me is having difficulty comprehending why boobs are a bad thing.

Mae · **11-20-2014, 04:32 PM**

(11-20-2014, 02:10 PM)Lalah Wrote: I think on top of the NPC instance I mentioned earlier, someone also brought up the Sahagin mentioning that we don't lay eggs. The quote in question comes from Novv during The Scarlet Bloodletter quest and is as follows:

Quote:I imagine a warrior of your ssstature would have much to impart to your hatchlings. Ah, but you shhhorewalkers do not lay eggs, correct?

Which seems pretty definitive on how our characters reproduce.

There are snakes and sharks that give live birth instead of laying eggs. And if I'm reading correctly, the only difference between their method and most mammals is how the unborn are nourished: in most mammals, there's the placental connection where the mother provides nourishment, whereas with the sharks and snakes the young are self contained for nourishment (basically a yolk). Fertilization and gas exchange is nearly identical for both the sharks/snakes and mammals... and, again, the live birth.

... And then, just to be fair to the overall argument, I suppose... we have the platypus. Lays eggs in nests, but still a mammal. And then we have the echidna, which also lays eggs, but carries the egg in a pouch until it hatches and develops a while before emerging, and females don't have nipples but is still a mammal...

...

Hrm. Okay, maybe XIV races are mammals that evolved from the echidna?

(11-20-2014, 03:00 PM)Jancis Wrote: At the end of the day, what puts food on the table, what the customer wants. Even though numbers aren't the whole truth, they don't lie. Though it's fun to try to think up biological reasons and whatnot for the sake of imagination, in the endÂ aesthetic appeal is a large selling point for the game in environment and models.

Basiaclly, yeah. We're a species that's (for the most part) hard-wired to be attracted to others who have the same basic bodily configuration, and to associate boobs with females and dangling-parts with males. As a selling point, SE would've had a harder time pulling in numbers if they had only given us characters that had androgynous bodies/faces and the only way to tell the differences between the sexes were (for example) skin/hide colours, plumage, horns and ridge patterns. Would they still have gotten players if they had done this? Yes, but the game itself wouldn't appeal to such a broad spectrum as it does, as there are people out there that will only play a human/the setting's human analogue (Hyur, for XIV).

Zyrusticae · **11-20-2014, 04:56 PM**

(11-20-2014, 03:00 PM)Jancis Wrote: At the end of the day, what puts food on the table, what the customer wants. Even though numbers aren't the whole truth, they don't lie. Though it's fun to try to think up biological reasons and whatnot for the sake of imagination, in the endÂ aesthetic appeal is a large selling point for the game in environment and models.

Case in point. Lalalalala - just snagged it from lodestone

http://i.imgur.com/KIM1gjl.jpg

http://pyjamamoney.com/wp-content/upload...x16001.jpg

Haha! Yes, well, it should be noted that pandering is okay in moderation - it's very, very easy to go way too far with it (*cough* TERA *coughcough*). It's also preferable if it's not completely one-sided like it usually is, as Bikini Armor Battle Damage rather ably highlights to the detriment of lazy artists everywhere.

I should also note that I, as a player, should have options and choices and don't appreciate being forced into one thing or another. If the coliseum set were representative of all the armors in the game you can be sure I would be ticked off about it. Instead, the option was available as one of many and I chose to dress my character in this way; my character had no say in it whatsoever. She's a fictional construct entirely at the mercy of her creator.

...This is getting completely off-topic, but suffice it to say that I think there's a healthy middle ground for this sort of thing and that taking the low road is lazy and representative of a regressive mindset.

(11-20-2014, 03:52 PM)Edgar Wrote: Part of me understands this thread to an extent.

The other part of me is having difficulty comprehending why boobs are a bad thing.

Did... did someone try to suggest that? If someone did, I don't remember reading it.

(11-20-2014, 04:32 PM)Mae Wrote: Basiaclly, yeah. We're a species that's (for the most part) hard-wired to be attracted to others who have the same basic bodily configuration, and to associate boobs with females and dangling-parts with males. As a selling point, SE would've had a harder time pulling in numbers if they had only given us characters that had androgynous bodies/faces and the only way to tell the differences between the sexes were (for example) skin/hide colours, plumage, horns and ridge patterns. Would they still have gotten players if they had done this? Yes, but the game itself wouldn't appeal to such a broad spectrum as it does, as there are people out there that will only play a human/the setting's human analogue (Hyur, for XIV).

Well, I should say that I think it's quite possible to make a very attractive non-human race with a completely different form of gender dimorphism. As I said, the Iksar are a pretty good example for this (though the males are a bit too bulky in my mind), with no mammaries and a completely different facial structure for the females. I also like the Asura quite a bit, and while they do end up being difficult to tell apart for sex at times, I really don't think that works to their detriment at all.

And of course, FFXIV has the example of Lalafells, where you literally cannot tell the difference between a male and female character if they're wearing full armor (especially with a covering helmet on). Their appeal does not seem to suffer any for it.

Shizuka · **11-20-2014, 07:47 PM**

(11-20-2014, 04:32 PM)Mae Wrote: There are snakes and sharks that give live birth instead of laying eggs. And if I'm reading correctly, the only difference between their method and most mammals is how the unborn are nourished: in most mammals, there's the placental connection where the mother provides nourishment, whereas with the sharks and snakes the young are self contained for nourishment (basically a yolk). Fertilization and gas exchange is nearly identical for both the sharks/snakes and mammals... and, again, the live birth.

... And then, just to be fair to the overall argument, I suppose... we have the platypus. Lays eggs in nests, but still a mammal. And then we have the echidna, which also lays eggs, but carries the egg in a pouch until it hatches and develops a while before emerging, and females don't have nipples but is still a mammal...

...

Hrm. Okay, maybe XIV races are mammals that evolved from the echidna?

You know, this is a good point, and it's interesting to note that apparently sharks have three ways of reproducing! But we're separate from them and snakes because of the presence of hair/fur. The hard and fast definition is pretty clear cut where our characters would fall, based on the limited information we have on reproduction and assumptions that can be made based on the seeming presence of mammary glands.

Mammal: any vertebrate of the class Mammalia, having the body more or less covered with hair, nourishing the young with milk from the mammary glands, and, with the exception of the egg-laying monotremes, giving birth to live young.

Of course, that's a really, really basic definition and I'm pretty sure it doesn't take into account any animals that happen to be defined as "mammals" yet don't follow those hard and fast rules. Dolphins have some hair around the tip of their "beak" before birth (and I think sometimes shortly after?), but don't have any in their adult life. Interestingly enough, whales apparently do have hair though; or at the very least they have hair follicles.

So assuming our characters aren't some sort of deviation from the natural order (hello platypus!), we can infer that they WOULD be mammals because of the presence of hair, mammary glands, internal spine (we're definitely not bugs or something), and quest text that implies we have live birth as compared to egg laying. But at the same time, there's technically nothing that explicitly states that Eorzean biology is the same as Earth biology.

Edgar · **11-20-2014, 08:03 PM**

(11-20-2014, 04:56 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(11-20-2014, 03:52 PM)Edgar Wrote: Part of me understands this thread to an extent.

The other part of me is having difficulty comprehending why boobs are a bad thing.
Did... did someone try to suggest that? If someone did, I don't remember reading it.

It was a joke based on one of your prior statements.

Zyrusticae Wrote:The whole thing with non-mammalian mammaries really ticks me off.Â

I mean, you're not evenÂ tryingÂ at that point. It's completely lazy to the point of being insulting. If you're gonna do non-human racesÂ at allÂ you better do it right! (Hence why I love Iksar and Asura so much more than I do, say, Argonians...)

However, the rest of that post...I wanted to cite artists like SYRSA who use breasts for all kinds of purposes in their work, but I know, in your head, if you slap tits on a nonhuman, it's "lazy" and "insulting", so I'm not even going to bother. I recognize a quest of futility when I see it.

I will, however, point out that by stating you know what the right way to do non-humans is, you are opening up a can of worms, because that in and of itself is a whole 'nother argument, one not on-topic for this thread.

(11-20-2014, 04:56 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: And of course, FFXIV has the example of Lalafells, where you literally cannot tell the difference between a male and female character if they're wearing full armor (especially with a covering helmet on). Â Their appeal does not seem to suffer any for it.

I can actually tell the difference. It's pretty easy for me. Though, my Lala, Koporo Aporo, has been called a girl both OOCly and ICly multiple freaking times, so I must be gifted or something.

FreelanceWizard · **11-20-2014, 08:34 PM**

(11-20-2014, 08:03 PM)Edgar Wrote: I can actually tell the difference. It's pretty easy for me. Though, my Lala, Koporo Aporo, has been called a girl both OOCly and ICly multiple freaking times, so I must be gifted or something.

Confession time: I'm terrible at telling lalafell apart. Smile

it's actually something of a joke IC and OOC, especially given how much time L'yhta spends around lalafell...

Ilwe'ran · **11-20-2014, 09:25 PM**

Pretty sure someone said it before : Characters have a navel in game. Navel comes from cutting the umbilical cord which is linked to placenta.
Placentalia is a group of mammal as far as I know.. I can be wrong but, for me, rather than any physical obvious stuff such as breasts, the navel is saying that the characters are mammals.

Zyrusticae · **11-20-2014, 09:56 PM**

(11-20-2014, 08:03 PM)Edgar Wrote: It was a joke based on one of your prior statements.

Zyrusticae Wrote:The whole thing with non-mammalian mammaries really ticks me off.Â

I mean, you're not evenÂ tryingÂ at that point. It's completely lazy to the point of being insulting. If you're gonna do non-human racesÂ at allÂ you better do it right! (Hence why I love Iksar and Asura so much more than I do, say, Argonians...)

However, the rest of that post...I wanted to cite artists like SYRSA who use breasts for all kinds of purposes in their work, but I know, in your head, if you slap tits on a nonhuman, it's "lazy" and "insulting", so I'm not even going to bother. I recognize a quest of futility when I see it.

I will, however, point out that by stating you know what the right way to do non-humans is, you are opening up a can of worms, because that in and of itself is a whole 'nother argument, one not on-topic for this thread.

It's on-topic enough. Every thread is going to have its tangents, and this is one of them (especially this thread, even). Let the Great Wizard be the final arbiter of that.

Anyway, it seems you misunderstand something. I don't simply mean all non-humans, but I do mean all non-human non-mammals. And yes, I do consider it lazy because, look, if you want to stick tits on something, it's easy. REALLY easy. It takes absolutely no thought at all. It's done all the time on a very regular basis. I pretty much consider it lazy (and by extension, an insult of my intelligence) for the same reasons I consider the ubiquitous bikini armor lazy: it's EVERYWHERE, and it's only done for really base sexual appeal and that's it. It's extremely transparent and no one of sound mind is getting fooled by that.

It's not that I have something against boobs or sex appeal per se. No, of course not. As Jancis pointed out, I even have my character kitted out in said bikini armor. But the thing is, that was just one choice I could have made of many - and there are many, many ways you can try to make something non-human appealing without immediately trying to appeal to the male (and homosexual female) libido. And that's a LOT more difficult and challenging than just sticking boobs on her and calling it a day.

It's also a problem of representation - you know adult women with extremely small (or even nonexistent) breasts exist, right? In large numbers, even? Now try counting up the number of video games out there that let you play one, or even include one as a side character. Now try counting up the number of games that do so where the female character in question isn't (or doesn't resemble) a child. It's not pretty. Even moreso when you consider that a lot of said women are of the athletic variety that really, really should be used as a reference for body shapes more often but for some reason are not.

That, honestly, makes me angry. There's a really nasty undercurrent here that suggests that grown women just can't possibly be attractive or noteworthy unless they have breasts. Usually big ones. (And while I'm at it, this is particularly annoying considering that over half of all men find very small breasts sexually attractive, making it particularly unnecessary.)

So, you know... I want less lazy, thoughtless mammary spam in games and more thought, more nuance, more variety. Hell, it would be nice if more developers simply acknowledged that we exist. We already have big breasts stretching as far as and well beyond the horizon at this point, so what's the harm in trying something different, eh? How bad can it be, really?

In short,

Show Content

And less of this.

That's all. Smile

(11-20-2014, 08:03 PM)Edgar Wrote: I can actually tell the difference. It's pretty easy for me. Though, my Lala, Koporo Aporo, has been called a girl both OOCly and ICly multiple freaking times, so I must be gifted or something.

Well... yeah. Smile

Blue · **11-21-2014, 09:35 AM**

I'm shocked this thread is still goingÂ Dazed

..

But since I've started it in sillyness, I would like end/continue it in sillyness with a theory that I have recently come up with.

Eorzean races' babies are like bed bugs.

What!? Bed bugs males must pierce the female's abdomen in order to reproduce. The female does not have any orifice for reproduction purposes.

So, I believe that Eorzean babies are born with special sharp teeth that they use to pierce their mothers' breasts in order to suck their first milk.

Once weaned, the teeth fall.

As for the pierced breasts, we do seeem to suffer lethal wounds everyday and stay unscathed and smooth-skinned for most of our life, so it is very well safe to assume they just regenerate.

Warren Castille · **11-21-2014, 09:51 AM**

(11-20-2014, 09:56 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: tumblr post

Garuda's design in XIV is based off of Garuda's design in XI. Garuda was a woman who prayed to be granted wings and turned into a Prime, according to the legend. XIV Garuda's got boobs because XI Garuda had boobs.

FFXI's lore, stupidly making me strike out what I had wrong Wrote:Garuda was a small bird raised by a young prince. When the prince got attacked by a viper, Garuda looked for means to cure him. Another bird informed her that she should seek the aid of the King of Birds, who could awaken the healing wind, Vuychap. Garuda flew ever further upwards, looking for the King of Birds, but couldn't find him anywhere. Having reached the limits of her strength, she fell from the sky, but her resolve was so powerful that she transformed during her fall, gaining a humanoid shape and regaining her vitality.

She realized that she now had the power to heal the prince, and did so, leaving him afterwards, as she no longer looked like the little bird he had raised. However, it is said that, once the prince grew up, he managed to find her and married her. Upon Garuda's death, Altana transformed her into the Celestial Avatar of Wind because of her loyalty and devotion. Vuychap is the name of the brightest, green-colored star of the Garuda constellation.

Mae · **11-21-2014, 11:17 AM**

(11-21-2014, 09:51 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Garuda's design in XIV is based off of Garuda's design in XI. Garuda was a woman who prayed to be granted wings and turned into a Prime, according to the legend. She's got boobs because she had boobs.

FFXI Wrote:Garuda was a small bird raised by a young prince. When the prince got attacked by a viper, Garuda looked for means to cure him. Another bird informed her that she should seek the aid of the King of Birds, who could awaken the healing wind, Vuychap. Garuda flew ever further upwards, looking for the King of Birds, but couldn't find him anywhere. Having reached the limits of her strength, she fell from the sky, but her resolve was so powerful that she transformed during her fall, gaining a humanoid shape and regaining her vitality.

She realized that she now had the power to heal the prince, and did so, leaving him afterwards, as she no longer looked like the little bird he had raised. However, it is said that, once the prince grew up, he managed to find her and married her. Upon Garuda's death, Altana transformed her into the Celestial Avatar of Wind because of her loyalty and devotion. Vuychap is the name of the brightest, green-colored star of the Garuda constellation.

*pokes*Â

"Garuda was a small bird raised by a young prince."

"Having reached the limits of her strength, she fell from the sky, but her resolve was so powerful that she transformed during her fall, gaining a humanoid shape and regaining her vitality."

EDIT: Poke withdrawn, was confused by how it was edited. Carry on.

Kage · **11-21-2014, 11:21 AM**

That's why he struck it out xD

Warren Castille · **11-21-2014, 11:21 AM**

Quote:(This post was last modified: Today 08:55 AM by Warren Castille.)

I know! I got it backwards and edited it summarily!

...unless there's something else I'm not seeing here.

Edit: Beaten by Kage. I didn't want to switch my post and make it look like I got it right the first time, hence the strike and c/p for the lore added.

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Any mention of pregnancy or birthgiving in-game? Are we even sure we are mammals?

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