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Cato · **04-22-2015, 04:18 PM**

(04-22-2015, 03:57 PM)Aya Wrote:
(04-22-2015, 03:48 PM)Oscare Wrote: In other words: it's not going to help, to put it bluntly.
Exactly, its one of the most effective means we have of conducting positivity.Â Many people don't want to make posts praising someone, some will send PMs, many more happily hit that +1 rep button, and often leave a nice comment too.Â

I feel like we've circled the wagons with the guns facing the wrong direction: toward each other.Â This thread is full of high criticism and as much aggression and animosity as any thread on the forum lately.

While what we have been dealing with are a handful of controversial topics which have become testy and the occasional heavy-handed criticism of concepts and ideas these things are (sometimes) unfortunate, but are not a reason to demand vast overwhelming changes to a community that has been well run and well conducted for such a long time.

I know we all have our own prescriptions, but in the end it boils down to: don't be a jerk.Â Express your opinion respectfully, and don't hammer away at someone (or something) with the intent to obliterate it.Â Understand and accept that this is a large community with a variety of opinion and interest, and what what we all consider good RP and good use of time will vary widely.Â

These sorts of things cannot be moderated from on high.Â Board moderators can only do their best to work within a framework to keep the edge cases in check, overall the tone will be our responsibility as users to set.Â

I find it especially upsetting that those very threads most intent upon boosting the tone of the board also come in for harsh criticism.Â What exactly are we supposed to do?Â Cannot be too positive to each other, cannot be too negative.Â Only post when other people think its appropriate?Â How about we just accept all of the good that the community has to offer, and do our best to mitigate the bad.

I can't help but feel like all of these suggestions for any major changes are overreaction.Â Things are not bad, worthy of a moment of reflection, perhaps, but not (apropos a particular thread), of revolution.Â

This has been one of my very favorite web communities, and I've enjoyed it for over a year to the point that I tend to check it almost constantly to see whats going on.Â The idea that we cannot handle or manage ourselves had never occurred to me.Â But, if we're to be a community where we really have to trust the moderators to make things right, and we have to remove such dangerous tools as a reputation system from the hands of users lest new forum goers be intimidated, or undesirable habits be spread, then all I can say is that is not a community that will garner my interest, let alone my love.

The alternative, then, is for more people to take on board what is being said in regards to things feeling frigid. That the community is so great for you isn't a bad thing - it really isn't. Yet I can't help but feel that it may be blinding you to the issues being raised throughout this thread to some extent.

I'll be honest and say that I don't really know you so this isn't meant as a personal attack: your profile has over thirty player character rumours. That's great! Many people who have been here for quite a long time still have zero. When you post in a thread about your character? People respond directly and exchange friendly banter about the good times you've shared together.

Again, I'm not saying it's a bad thing or that you should feel ashamed. I'm saying that more acknowledgement is needed in regards to the fact that some role-players are trying very hard to contribute/get stuff going and their efforts fall flat time and time again through no fault of their own.

It's like I said earlier: people don't like feeling like an outsider, especially if they're trying to get involved and it's possible for two individuals to have completely different experiences within the same crowd.

Let's be honest - we're all warmer to our friends than we may be towards acquaintances/strangers. It's perfectly natural. Breaking the ice is also a two way street and whilst nobody is obligated to interact with anybody else we do need things to be civil across the board.

As for the reputation system? It has a few flaws, I'll admit but overall I think it's a good part of the site. It's made my posts feel valued and acknowledged more than once in the past. I personally make it a point to make use of the system whenever I remember to or a particular post stands out as thought provoking.

At the end of the day we're dealing with a situation where a lot of people are claiming to feel unwelcome and new/seasoned role-players alike are expressing this on a fairly frequent basis. No matter how one chooses to acknowledge that it's an issue that needs to be addressed and if that involves changes in terms of how moderation works then I'm perfectly fine with that.

Fresh blood is incredibly important. New ideas are as well. Both contribute to a community evolving and remaining healthy rather than just one big echo chamber for whichever group has the loudest voices.

Though I'm definitely interested in your theories regarding how the proposed changes would impact the site negatively. It's important we discuss it from every angle.

ProvaDiServo · **04-22-2015, 04:18 PM**

(04-22-2015, 03:32 PM)Aya Wrote:
(04-22-2015, 03:28 PM)Aris Wrote: Removing the reputation system - perhaps semi permanently as a trial - might also help new members feel more welcome as everyone is on an even playing field, and not get any preconceived ideas about members already here.
If people really feel that the RPC is in need of removal of reputations in order to be a friendly, fun place then I honestly have no idea what's going on any more.

Going to echo this I don't really think rep is a mandatory thing to take away. Rep only serves a public display on how the streets vibe with shit you say. If someone feels they have to emulate someone with stacked rep, then I think that speaks more on the emulator than the rep system.

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Rin Fashonti · **04-22-2015, 04:27 PM**

This thread seems to snowballing. I've only been on the server for a week and the site for two days so I don't really know much but...Damn..

Isn't everyone friends here? lol

SicketySix · **04-22-2015, 04:29 PM**

(04-22-2015, 04:27 PM)Rin Fashonti Wrote: This thread seems to snowballing. I've only been on the server for a week and the site for two days so I don't really know much but...Damn..

Isn't everyone friends here? lol

Yes, I'd say most of us are.

Melkire · **04-22-2015, 04:30 PM**

(04-22-2015, 04:27 PM)Rin Fashonti Wrote: This thread seems to snowballing. I've only been on the server for a week and the site for two days so I don't really know much but...Damn..

Isn't everyone friends here? lol

I'd like to think so, but some people will tell you no. What I can say is that many discussions and topics here in recent days & weeks have been far more heated than usual.

Nebbs · **04-22-2015, 04:32 PM**

(04-22-2015, 04:27 PM)Rin Fashonti Wrote: This thread seems to snowballing. I've only been on the server for a week and the site for two days so I don't really know much but...Damn..

Isn't everyone friends here? lol

It is an international mix of all sorts.. and far better than many forums I have been on.

If you are worried have some cake, and a hug.

Faye · **04-22-2015, 04:34 PM**

I don't believe taking away the reputations system will help anything. I get rep as often for positive or neutral posts as I do for snarky ones (granted, I apparently don't think I'm being snarky as often as others think I am--maybe I just have a loose definition of snark, or maybe my tone is translated horribly through text, or maybe some folks are just thin-skinned--perhaps a combination of those) and I don't believe anyone here is vain enough to make snarky posts solely for more potential reputation points.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't pay a lot of attention to anyone's reputation count on here. And when I do glance at the numbers, I don't really use it to gauge how intelligent, useful, or well-liked a person is. Getting rid of the reputation system seems like treating an indirect symptom rather than curing the disease. Plus, let's be honest. I really like giving rep, and I really like getting it. I actually think it brings something positive to the site.

Zhavi · **04-22-2015, 04:34 PM**

(04-22-2015, 04:27 PM)Rin Fashonti Wrote: This thread seems to snowballing. I've only been on the server for a week and the site for two days so I don't really know much but...Damn..

Isn't everyone friends here? lol

That people are taking their time to share their concerns and suggestions is, to me, a clear sign that people really care about this community and keeping it a positive and fun place.

I like the people here. I like it here.

SaintEaon · **04-22-2015, 04:35 PM**

(04-22-2015, 04:34 PM)Faye Wrote: I don't believe taking away the reputations system will help anything. I get rep as often for positive or neutral posts as I do for snarky ones (granted, I apparently don't think I'm being snarky as often as others think I am--maybe I just have a loose definition of snark, or maybe my tone is translated horribly through text, or maybe some folks are just thin-skinned--perhaps a combination of those) and I don't believe anyone here is vain enough to make snarky posts solely for more potential reputation points.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't pay a lot of attention to anyone's reputation count on here. And when I do glance at the numbers, I don't really use it to gauge how intelligent, useful, or well-liked a person is. Getting rid of the reputation system seems like treating an indirect symptom rather than curing the disease.

Â Getting rid of reputation also means people can't easily tell who its easier to ignore or taunt if they disagree. As someone who vehemently despises reddit, removal of up/down voting people is only good.

Sarangerel Qestir · **04-22-2015, 04:36 PM**

Honestly, even before 2.0 launched there was plenty of hostility. Maybe a lot of it didn't -openly- appear on the forums, but it was definitely there. It was typically very lightly veiled as joking or sarcasm but there were and continue to be cliques, and new people back then and I have to assume now are being 'warned' against certain individuals based on either the bad experiences the people warning them had, or even more troubling, just the rumors.Â

One individual comes immediately to mind who I won't name but was, at one point, a very active and well known member of the community (there are a lot of those so this in intentionally vague). Someone who doesn't even post on the RPC, who openly denounces it in game that I met through my ooc friend who recently started playing this game, first brought up the name when I asked if they had a linkshell/FC profile listed in the directory here. Then, when I said I didn't know, this individual proceeded to try to incite a smearing conversation with me in regards to this person; someone who wasn't related whatsoever to the topic at hand.

This has happened several times. Over the course of my periodic visits (that were once upon a time pretty frequent) to the RPC, I've had people go out of their way to talk to me about other members that I don't even know and how much they despise them. I usually feel pretty indifferent, but that without a doubt translates into hostile replies to those individual's posts by the people who just do not like them. There's a variety of reasons why they might not like them. Maybe they don't agree with their philosophies. Maybe they personally slighted them. Maybe they feel too intensely about their opinions or are offended by the way someone else words theirs. Maybe they don't like how popular or well-liked someone is. All of this has been more or less covered in this thread, but that's what happens in communities where people become embittered by their own experiences or have been conditioned to become defensive of topics or beliefs or friends.Â

If you want to crack down on hostility, that's grand and all, but it won't stop lonely people from feeling like they're not heard or not worthy of people's attention turning those same sad feelings into aggression towards the objects of popular interest. People are just going to dislike people, and that's how it is. What people need to learn isn't 'Grow a thicker skin; I'm just saying what I think is right' it's -tact-. If you want to be in a community with other people, then EVEN IF ALL THOSE PEOPLE are thick-skinned, filterless, unapologetically close-minded individuals (this is an exaggerated hypothetical, not referring to this coalition or anyone in it) then you SHOULD STILL learn to be tactful and NOT contribute to the bitter back and forths, even if you feel like you're being targeted or that your response is justified. If you have a problem, maybe talk to a moderator and have them try to help you work it out with someone else.Â

So instead of trying to catch hostility in progress, usually after the fact, and thereby try to find a solid definition of what can be considered hostile, why not just point out when people are being harsh instead or when they're being far too strict in their stereotyping and opinions of other people's characters or questions? Why not just soften the tone instead and try to encourage people to give a little more than a half-effort to drop just enough sugary disclaimer onto a post to hide the personal hatred of how other people do things, or how these players are, or why I don't like this thing because this one other thing happened to me and this is how I responded to it--? I honestly don't think anything'll work, but trying to discourage toxicity in any way at all like the ones the leaders have planned is -something-.

And if you have something to say about something you don't like that you can't be open-minded about then maybe make a tumblr and go rant about it there instead of here.

Kage · **04-22-2015, 05:06 PM**

The above post reminded me of something that I read earlier in regards to an actual roleplay topic (on tumblr) but was what I see more geared towards tabletop roleplay than MMORPG roleplay however it still applies.

http://www.giantitp.com/articles/tll307K...6efFP.html
The article goes on to describe situations where a character might react a certain way to a certain situation. (Someone steals something, someone else finds stealing is wrong. The person decided that the thief needed to leave the party or the person would leave.) Instead of being adamant about the ultimatum given and thus driving much discord into the small group of roleplayers, the player who thought the thief was wrong could have said or done different things that would be in-character. This is what -we- choose to do.

The point was that, we are a community, trying to keep and foster the community. If we didn't care, we wouldn't say a thing. There were a few who had voiced it outside of RPC that they found themselves coming less and less or wondering if they should visit less and less because of things. But, for me, I wouldn't keep coming to check on things if I didn't care. We -do- care and that's probably why some things get heated. So if we care, I do, I will continue to try and do my best to better how I react and thus treat the community better. Is it truly worth it to keep arguing something to the point of being condescending (which I believe is what starts to get people heated. They feel like someone doesn't treat their opinion with as much "worth" or that it is inferior / it doesn't matter).

I posted one of the posts elsewhere, but I think that myself and in general everyone can stand to be heated in their discussions/debates/what have you. Keep it from shouting matches. Keep it from personal attacks. You think it's going nowhere? Leave the topic; don't post things that "everyone knows" will just end up de-railing the thread and locking it. Instead of stopping the discussion, those who are taking it too far should be notified and/or dealt with that what they're doing needs to cool down.

edit: tl;dr : We choose how we react, bad or good. Our actions should be made with the thought "Is this going to help or better the community?" I'll own up to the fact that I've gotten quite upset about posts or threads I've made and someone makes a post that adds no discussion except to make a snarky post about it.

Warren Castille · **04-22-2015, 05:10 PM**

I'm tired of being guilted for other people's RP or lack thereof.

Zhavi · **04-22-2015, 05:16 PM**

(04-22-2015, 05:10 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I'm tired of being guilted for other people's RP or lack thereof.

It's one of those uneasy middle ground things.

Calling out people can result in petty arguments and hurt feelings.

Being vague stalls the petty arguments and hurt feelings, but leads to more people going 'is that me? am I part of the problem?' I know I've felt that way, just like sometimes I get a very strong impression that I'm being annoying or annoying someone in general. Sometimes I want to foster or encourage a discussion and am either ignored or taken in a way I didn't want to be taken -- but, well, that's every community. In the end I go to rl friends and they do the awkward headpat thing like 'I have no idea why you're getting riled over your silly and sometimes bizarre hobbies, but you're ok' ... and, most of time time, I am ok.

I don't know what your private discussions are, but better to send someone a pm and see for sure rather than not; to me you've always been a positive rp influence, Warren, and inclusive.

Oscare · **04-22-2015, 05:18 PM**

(04-22-2015, 04:27 PM)Rin Fashonti Wrote: This thread seems to snowballing. I've only been on the server for a week and the site for two days so I don't really know much but...Damn..

Isn't everyone friends here? lol

Some people don't like people. So no, not everyone likes everyone or is friends with everyone. We can pretend that we do, but others don't like to pretend either. Tension exists, but it doesn't mean we have to let it inhibit us or our actions. We simply have to live with it and learn to control it so it doesn't cause more grief.

Edvyn · **04-22-2015, 05:39 PM**

the notion of removing or changing the rep system in an attempt to "change people's tone" (read: control their minds somehow) is both completely useless and utterly insane. it will change nobody's posting style, and only really serves to take something inconsequential away from people so that a vocal, hypersensitive, hysterical, over-entitled minority can feel a little better about themselves. it is levelling the playing field by cutting everyone else down. i, for one, enjoy my stupid green number and would rather it stay. if i got my stupid green number by saying things that aren't to the complainers' tastes, why should that even matter? they didn't give me the +1s, did they? why should the people who enjoyed my posts and added to my stupid green number be deprived of their ability to let me know they laughed at my shitty jokes in simple, numeric form? Cool

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Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately?

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