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Nako Vesh · **05-14-2015, 11:57 PM**

Quote:All the same, it's also important, I think, to realize that these things are not necessarily the fault of those who possess them or anything like that, and to not let these kinds of problems dramatically impact one's self-esteem, lest that lead to even greater problems down the line.

Uh.

But. That's. The. Point.

You can't reason with or apply logic to mental illnesses. It's not a matter of "letting" anything happen. It just does. You deal with and manage the aftermath as best you can.

Quote:I think extreme personality traits and disorders can indeed make a character endearing.Â

Yep, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. Mental illness is constantly portrayed badly in media, and it's something I'm very tired of. I'm not telling you how you should RP (especially if you find it somehow cathartic), I'm just telling you I don't think it's very classy.Â

Quote:After all, a big part of why people love the Joker so much is because he's such a volatile cocktail of mental disorders that makes him a compelling character.

It's... interesting that the next character you mention as having mental illnesses is the Joker.Â

Going off topic slightly, I disagree that most people like the Joker because they find him compelling. Most people just like to see him kill people and cause chaos. His character has only been nuanced and layered in rather recent years. I would argue that he isn't so insane as he claims to be, but makes terrible, violent choices. I could go on about how his portrayal is actually rather harmful to people with mental health issues, since people with mental illnesses are statistically more likely to have violence committed upon them, rather than the other way around... But I'll spare everyone. Besides, I love comics, especially the characters surrounding Batman, and I enjoy them despite their problems.

Kellach Woods · **05-15-2015, 12:15 AM**

I'm not exactly a fan of romanticizing mental illness. Mostly 'cause you can't romanticize mine.

Zyrusticae · **05-15-2015, 12:27 AM**

(05-14-2015, 11:57 PM)Nako Vesh Wrote: Uh.

But. That's. The. Point.

You can't reason with or apply logic to mental illnesses. It's not a matter of "letting" anything happen. It just does. You deal with and manage the aftermath as best you can.

I think you're misunderstanding something here.

What I mean is that people should avoid feeding into already-existent negative feelings and driving people towards depression (and possibly suicide). Constantly badmouthing people who possess disorders and telling them how damaged they are is not a positive behavior in any context.

I am well aware that the disorders themselves are inherently irrational, and that even depression itself is not something that can be rationally controlled (oh, if only). I just think a lot of people can help by... not being overbearing with their attempts at personal assistance.

But then, I'm someone who grew up with a mother and older brother constantly reminding me of all of my perceived faults, and absolutely resent them for it. That obviously skews my views on the matter quite a bit.

(05-14-2015, 11:57 PM)Nako Vesh Wrote:
Quote:I think extreme personality traits and disorders can indeed make a character endearing.Â

Yep, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. Mental illness is constantly portrayed badly in media, and it's something I'm very tired of. I'm not telling you how you should RP (especially if you find it somehow cathartic), I'm just telling you I don't think it's very classy.Â

That's totally fair. I'm willing to accept that judgment.

I agree that it's portrayed very badly a lot of the time, and I can only hope that I don't add to the pile. In this case, I'm "writing what I know", so I do hope that gives me some amount of insight on the matter. (Not that it matters right now - after all, this is only a hypothetical, and I don't actually plan on playing the character any time soon.)

(05-14-2015, 11:57 PM)Nako Vesh Wrote:
Quote:After all, a big part of why people love the Joker so much is because he's such a volatile cocktail of mental disorders that makes him a compelling character.

It's... interesting that the next character you mention as having mental illnesses is the Joker.Â

Going off topic slightly, I disagree that most people like the Joker because they find him compelling. Most people just like to see him kill people and cause chaos. His character has only been nuanced and layered in rather recent years. I would argue that he isn't so insane as he claims to be, but makes terrible, violent choices. I could go on about how his portrayal is actually rather harmful to people with mental health issues, since people with mental illnesses are statistically more likely to have violence committed upon them, rather than the other way around... But I'll spare everyone. Besides, I love comics, especially the characters surrounding Batman, and I enjoy them despite their problems.

It's very interesting that you say that. I am personally not of the view that 'choice' is a particularly valuable concept, because of the way our brains are wired. This is starting to get into some very complicated psychological gobbledygook, but suffice it to say, we are not nearly as in control of our mental faculties as we like to believe ourselves to be, and that is a large part of why I believe the idea of 'judgment' is more detrimental than beneficial a large part of the time (even though, ironically, I subconsciously engage in it a lot of the time myself - which just helps to prove the point further, really).

More to the point, I tend to evaluate by circumstances and situations rather than people, and try to view things from an emotionally detached position. As such, I tend to view, say, hardened criminals as products of society and circumstance rather than as terrible people making bad life choices, and as such, a large part of what makes a character interesting to me are what circumstances and events in their upbringing brought them up to the point they are at now. So I don't really think of someone as "having made terrible choices" in their life as much as I think of them being "the subject of terrible circumstances".

I know my view is probably a minority view, but it is a view supported by plenty of evidence.

All that said, the Joker is indeed a fictional character subject to the whims of his many writers, and indeed, he is NOT a positive portrayal of mental illness and we could probably do with a lot more positive portrayals of atypical minds and mental disorders. It's indeed a shame that a positive portrayal is not the first thing to come to mind for myself, and perhaps I should devote some energy to creating one as well. I certainly would not mind the challenge.

Hyrist · **05-15-2015, 12:28 AM**

I got told less than two weeks ago how I'm kinda cute and endearing when I stutter. It's a very awkward thing to hear, especially when it's a source of frustration for me. But it's quite possible that someone on the objective end of the matter could see it as such. That shouldn't be a problem, as it's a common Media trope as well, especially in Anime.

Qhora Bajihri · **05-15-2015, 12:29 AM**

I've done the amnesia thing. That's something I wouldn't wish on anyone, and it messed my character up pretty badly. He had ways of handling it, but they weren't good ways, and they came back to bite him.

My current character is a mental and emotional basketcase, but she wasn't always. She was the picture of mental health when I built her and there's situational rationale behind all of her current incapacitating feelings, shattered headspace, and inability to respond appropriately in social situations. I don't think I could label her without the help of some psychiatric research, because the ways she's bent out of shape are myriad and reflective of her past experiences and current reality.

I have more experience with textbook depression than I care to dwell on. I can see giving an endearing quality to coping mechanisms that are harmless quirks maybe, and empathy is something that should be exercised around mental illness, rather than immediately shunning someone who acts and interacts differently.

But I can see how some people can find encountering stereotypical mental and emotional problem tropes so frustrating that the first card they pull out of the deck is not empathy but annoyance. That's not me, but I appreciate where those people are coming from.

Faye · **05-15-2015, 12:37 AM**

I don't think stating that mental illness isn't glamorous is at all putting down people with mental illnesses. In fact, it's much more refreshing to hear than "your illness isn't real." Someone saying that mental illnesses can be debilitating is no more saying "you're damaged" than saying that a broken bone can be debilitating is calling someone "damaged."

Kellach Woods · **05-15-2015, 12:39 AM**

Think the problem is we're not arguing on the same page.

I don't think anyone would argue against anyone trying to play what they want to play. Especially since, let's be real here, if we see anything show up in RP it'd be anxiety/depression. Personality disorders we might see borderline, bipolar or extremely misrepresented OCD.

I have a personal problem against saying a character's mental illness is cute by default because that's entirely subject to the whims of the character that's interacting with you. Some might not find the crippling anxiety cute - some might just be mad that you're being anxious.

allgivenover · **05-15-2015, 12:41 AM**

I'm impressed this hasn't degenerated into "playing a character with mental illness is offensive and might land you in jail".

Good show HRC,

Zyrusticae · **05-15-2015, 12:46 AM**

Well, I suppose we can say there are two extremes here, from 'your illness isn't real' to 'you're forever broken and have no chance' (and plenty of space in-between), and indeed, every disorder has varying levels of severity (what can be mildly inconvenient for one person can be completely crippling for another), so like Warren said, this is a really heavily subjective topic.

I can appreciate that my experience is not necessarily going to parallel another's. That's a large part of what makes this whole thing so interesting. So many varying perspectives and views.

allgivenover · **05-15-2015, 12:55 AM**

On a more serious note..
The only time I've ever been put off is when someone RPs a character with a dozen mental problems, and mostly because they want to beat everyone else in the "tortured soul" race.Â

RP them with the respect and gravity they deserve and you're fine.

Except amnesia, because even if you research it and do it correctly people won't recognize it for what it is, as it's been so horribly misrepresented in pop culture that even many educated people are totally ignorant about how it actually presents and affects an individual.

Nako Vesh · **05-15-2015, 01:04 AM**

(05-15-2015, 12:37 AM)Faye Wrote: I don't think stating that mental illness isn't glamorous is at all putting down people with mental illnesses. In fact, it's much more refreshing to hear than "your illness isn't real." Someone saying that mental illnesses can be debilitating is no more saying "you're damaged" than saying that a broken bone can be debilitating is calling someone "damaged."

Exactly this.Â

Also, comparing the Joker to real life criminals is so absolutely irrelevant. Of course I believe people are products of their environments, but your brought up the Joker, not a real criminal. My point is the Joker makes his choices and is aware of the consequences and implications.

And now I am done with this conversation a hundred years ago.

Cato · **05-15-2015, 02:03 AM**

The people who portray mental and physical health issues as nothing more than a gimmick tend to be doing me a favour since it gives me a pretty good idea as to who I should avoid. Not just because it makes me cringe whenever I see someone pulling them off poorly but also because 'gimmicky' role-play isn't something I enjoy at all.

I hold the firm belief that such issues should be approached with care and dignity. Research should be done to ensure that it's being done tastefully. Furthermore, it's always baffled me when people make their character blind or an amputee but then give their character absolutely no drawbacks or ever twist it as an excuse to make their character even more gifted than everybody else.

It...ceases to be a disability at that point. If you're character is 'blind' but can see perfectly due to magic then it begs the question as to why they were made blind in the first place. To fish for sympathy, perhaps? To try and justify making their sense of sight even more powerful than most other character's sight?

That's my penny's worth.

GloryRhodes · **05-15-2015, 05:37 AM**

(05-15-2015, 02:03 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: It...ceases to be a disability at that point. If you're character is 'blind' but can see perfectly due to magic then it begs the question as to why they were made blind in the first place. To fish for sympathy, perhaps? To try and justify making their sense of sight even more powerful than most other character's sight?

That's my penny's worth.

Never underestimate a disability making for a more compelling character rather than a less compelling one, even if they seem barely hampered by it. Â You can't generalize this particular topic. Each character and player is going to produce something of a different quality with the same ingredients.

Warren Castille · **05-15-2015, 08:01 AM**

"Aww! He's confined a wheelchair! That's so adorable!!"

"Look, she was born with nonfunctional limbs! Isn't that just precious??"

"Look at that person! They can't see anything! Fuckin' kawaii!"

"Aw, she stutters! I just wanna huggle her up and snuggle and shelter her!"

Edit, in case that's somehow not clear: Don't do this.

Hammersmith · **05-15-2015, 08:06 AM**

Can chars have mental illnesses?

Yes. Â They can.

Should you be playing one with such?

If the answer to this involves "I don't want to do the research to portray it correctly and without being an asshole to the people who also have it", the answer is probably no.

This shit is complicated. Â

There's an old term for RPers who do it shittily, "Fish Malk", referring to the "Lol so randum" portrayals of insanity in RPGs from the mid/late 90s in stuff like Vampire the Masquerade. Â It's stuff like that that trivializes the struggle with these conditions in real life, and marginalizes the people who have to deal with it.

Being someone's joke, someone's punchline, being handy attention seeking hook of the hour, is not how any mental illness works and if it's being played as such there's probably a long walk off a short plank you should be contemplating because, I hate to tell you, you are the asshole here.

Now, if you're still set as playing mental illness as a facet and a condition, not a quirk of the hour, a cute thing that is extra cute to add to cute, or the extra tortured soul who is more tortured than thou I mean look at this really, the worst gib sympathy plz, then read on.

Look up how these things work. Â How they change perspectives. Â How they grind the edges off things like enjoyment and satisfaction. Â Some do it fast, some do it slow, some do it dramatically. Â See how it's going to lash out against those around you.

It's called an illness because it inhibits, not because it's neat., Â Mental illness prevents you from operating at a baseline point. Â It doesn't just come up whenever it's convenient.

Which makes portraying it hard.

Really: I'd recommend not doing it. Â It's really easy to be an asshole instead of being interesting with it. Â Personality traits are one thing. Â Actual conditions are another. Â They arn't fun and, for the most part, we're all here to have fun.

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On playing characters with mental illnesses

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes