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Telluride · **05-26-2015, 01:15 PM**

(05-26-2015, 01:09 PM)Naunet Wrote: @Prova: I'm not sure I understand your point.

One of the primary restrictions of the Heavensward "expansion" forces players to play a class they may not want to play for a hugeÂ chunk of content. Nothing is going to be fun if you're having to play something you don't want to.

To play devil's advocate, I dare say that the reply would be "If that would scare you away, you'd have already left when we made you take a second class just to get the most out of your first."

I mean, logically, why the hell should a Bard study pugilism, or a Thaumaturge study archery, for example? Why does my Dragoon need to heft an Axe for a while?

I am actually of your mind on this, Naunet - I'm just cutting off a counterargument at the pass.

McBeefâ„¢ · **05-26-2015, 01:16 PM**

(05-26-2015, 01:09 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(05-26-2015, 01:04 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(05-26-2015, 01:04 PM)Aya Wrote:
(05-26-2015, 01:01 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Because I'm going to be in an instance with them.
Do you really think there's a correlation between having ground through the full MSQ and making Natalie happy in instances?

My happiness is entirely contingent of the suffering of others.

Nat, you missed your calling as an Electronic Arts employee. I'm choosing now to blame SWTOR's Cartel Market system on you, because I like you and want you to be happy

If I had it my way you would need all classes at 50, a t13 clear, a gold pony the fenrir mount and a lvl 20 chocobo companion to even install the expansion.

Melkire · **05-26-2015, 01:17 PM**

(05-26-2015, 01:09 PM)Naunet Wrote: @Prova: I'm not sure I understand your point.

One of the primary restrictions of the Heavensward "expansion" forces players to play a class they may not want to play for a hugeÂ chunk of content. Nothing is going to be fun if you're having to play something you don't want to.

I think Prova's point might be that lots of people enjoy the leveling experience. I've certainly heard of many players on Balmung and Gilgamesh leveling alts to 50. I know some people who do so on Greg so that they can gear out multiple jobs faster and thus circumvent tomestone caps. They'd rather do that than, say, grind relic.

"Leveling is a low point" does not hold true for everyone, especially those who might be approaching FFXIV for the single player or narrative elements. Admittedly, not being able to level as the class or job you want is a potential setback.

Gone. · **05-26-2015, 01:17 PM**

(05-26-2015, 12:35 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: If you think the community on FFXIV is bad... you must not have played many other large MMOs. I think the FFXIV community is pretty stellar. I think much of that comes from the handholding and learning that the main quest does for people.

Just because something is better in comparison doesn't mean it still isn't problematic to begin with. Take it from someone that's been abused plenty of times through duty finder, experienced countless diva tanks that take a thirty minute penalty over the most minor of mistakes and all sorts of petulant behavior, most prevalent in the crystal tower raids.

Perhaps you have the privilege to play in pre-mades all the time and thus can avoid these sorts of people, but outside of that exception? The community is nowhere near as good as you're making it out to be.

ProvaDiServo · **05-26-2015, 01:18 PM**

(05-26-2015, 01:05 PM)Naunet Wrote: I don't think I've been in a single piece of FFXIV content outside of high endgame (and even then...) where a few bad players couldn't be carried.

Titan Extreme in this current patch comes to mind. especially if the important rolls have no idea what they are doing.

(05-26-2015, 01:09 PM)Naunet Wrote: @Prova: I'm not sure I understand your point.

One of the primary restrictions of the Heavensward "expansion" forces players to play a class they may not want to play for a hugeÂ chunk of content. Nothing is going to be fun if you're having to play something you don't want to.

Well I've been playing through this whole game as a class I have little to no love for. in fact I did it four times. The social connections and the story do a good job to take my mind off that,

There is more to the game than just the content you run, at least that's what ppl tell me.

Telluride · **05-26-2015, 01:24 PM**

(05-26-2015, 01:16 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(05-26-2015, 01:09 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(05-26-2015, 01:04 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(05-26-2015, 01:04 PM)Aya Wrote:
(05-26-2015, 01:01 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Because I'm going to be in an instance with them.
Do you really think there's a correlation between having ground through the full MSQ and making Natalie happy in instances?

My happiness is entirely contingent of the suffering of others.

Nat, you missed your calling as an Electronic Arts employee. I'm choosing now to blame SWTOR's Cartel Market system on you, because I like you and want you to be happy

If I had it my way you would need all classes at 50, a t13 clear, a gold pony the fenrir mount and a lvl 20 chocobo companion to even install the expansion.

I take it back. Apparently, you worked for Games Workshop, at some point. Laugh

Gegenji · **05-26-2015, 01:26 PM**

I'm... ambivalent on the whole situation, myself. FFXIV is very much trying to tell a character-based story and be an MMO at the same time, which is indeed quite a different tack from WoW. There was an overarching plot, sure... but it was kind of in the background unless you were raiding and aiding in stopping whatever threat was around at the time - Illidan, the Lich King, evil spirits, Evil-Mc-Bad-Orc that replaced Jesus-Orc. Your character was just of... there, a grunt amongst the hundreds for whichever side of the conflict you chose.

It's not the same in FFXIV. You're playing as a key person - THE key person - and affecting change in the world as the Warrior of Light. You confront the Garleans, you stop the Primals and Ultima weapon, you aid in pushing back the latest Dravanian assault. And, as such, disconnecting from the MSQ is... harder? Since it's so much more intrinsically tied to your character - even more so considering things like joining a GC and access to retainers is also tied to it.

For example, let's take the opening of Ishgard's gates. I'm assuming this is going to be due to the work of the WoL and his allies finally getting some results. But you're the WoL, effectively. And, as a new player, you haven't done any of that yet. And, even if you don't mind skipping that, what about the jarring disconnect if you decide to go back and DO the MSQ (if not for the story, then for the EXPs, gear, or unlock some dungeon for whatever reason)?

Does Ishgard suddenly become... closed off again? Or do you have a situation where the story is telling you "Oh man, Ishgard's so secluded" as you waltz through its gates to go pick up your next DRK job quest? It's not even a situation like the Scions' bases in Horizon and Revenant's Toll, where it's accessibility and contents are based on where you are in the MSQ. This would, if things are set as they are, require Ishgard to be open regardless of your place in the "story" of FFXIV.

How I would have worked it? Have the new jobs work like ROG did - once you get any class to 30 (or possibly a matching role - tank for DRK, caster/healer for AST, DPS for MCH), you could start on the new jobs. And then, place them all in accessible areas outside of Ishgard proper so you're not violating the "lore" of Ishgard being sealed off for where your character is in the plot. I originally thought the MCH trainer was gonna be in Limsa attached to the MRD's guild, after all.

Put it there, put AST in the Observatorium, and put DRK... I dunno... somewhere else in the Coerthas Central Highlands. Or, heck, have ALL of them in the Highlands split amongst the three towns there. You might have to make a mad dash past higher level mobs (or get someone to give you a lift there via Draft Chocobo), but you could get to them once you hit 30.

Then, alter their text based on whether or not Ishgard has actually been opened and BAM. All set. Or, at least, so it seems in my mind. Then all you'd have is the flying mounts and Ishgard behind the "gates" of the MSQ. Or something.

Aduu Avagnar · **05-26-2015, 01:29 PM**

(05-26-2015, 01:24 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(05-26-2015, 01:16 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(05-26-2015, 01:09 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(05-26-2015, 01:04 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(05-26-2015, 01:04 PM)Aya Wrote: Do you really think there's a correlation between having ground through the full MSQ and making Natalie happy in instances?

My happiness is entirely contingent of the suffering of others.

Nat, you missed your calling as an Electronic Arts employee. Â I'm choosing now to blame SWTOR's Cartel Market system on you, because I like you and want you to be happy

If I had it my way you would need all classes at 50, a t13 clear, a gold pony the fenrir mount and a lvl 20 chocobo companion to even install the expansion.

I take it back. Apparently, you worked for Games Workshop, at some point.

Hey, I won't have anything bad said against GW employees.

anyway, if that was the case, then the requirement would be that some of the classes get removed for balance..... and some others loose half their abilities.

Telluride · **05-26-2015, 01:35 PM**

(05-26-2015, 01:26 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I'm... ambivalent on the whole situation, myself. FFXIV is very much trying to tell a character-based story and be an MMO at the same time, which is indeed quite a different tack from WoW.

Relevant:

Show Content

And in that vein, I'll be that guy, because my shame reserves are low:

If I didn't find the MSQ so despicably irritiating. I'd care less. I don't dislike the STORY as much as I loathe the NPCs and, even more, that I'm forced to play the Woobie/idiot savant/ "Evil always triumphs because good is dumb" character.

Nathan himself is a good enough guy that I can swallow it, but Magma... Mags would have bludgeoned at least a dozen NPCs into paste (Trachtoum, rest in pieces), and told Minfilia where she could stick her linkpearl.

Yeah, I know, Rper problems. I know, as I have said a dozen times, I got spoiled for stories by other games. But that video in the spoiler link says plenty.

Melkire · **05-26-2015, 01:38 PM**

(05-26-2015, 01:26 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I'm... ambivalent on the whole situation, myself. FFXIV is very much trying to tell a character-based story and be an MMO at the same time, which is indeed quite a different tack from WoW.

SWTOR did this and had some considerable success with it for a time. I'd go so far as to say that the class and story quests there were THE reason to play the game, especially given the writing and voice acting that went into it.

But then, SWTOR too is a different beast from XIV.

Gegenji · **05-26-2015, 02:03 PM**

(05-26-2015, 01:35 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(05-26-2015, 01:26 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I'm... ambivalent on the whole situation, myself. FFXIV is very much trying to tell a character-based story and be an MMO at the same time, which is indeed quite a different tack from WoW.

Relevant:

Show Content

Spoiler

And in that vein, I'll be that guy, because my shame reserves are low:

If I didn't find the MSQ so despicably irritiating. I'd care less. I don't dislike the STORY as much as I loathe the NPCs and, even more, that I'm forced to play the Woobie/idiot savant/ "Evil always triumphs because good is dumb" character.

Nathan himself is a good enough guy that I can swallow it, but Magma... Mags would have bludgeoned at least a dozen NPCs into paste (Trachtoum, rest in pieces), and told Minfilia where she could stick her linkpearl.

Yeah, I know, Rper problems. I know, as I have said a dozen times, I got spoiled for stories by other games. But that video in the spoiler link says plenty.

Understandable. The point I was making was more that the fact that it's a character-driven story means that while it (supposedly, in the case of those who dislike the MSQ) engages the player on a more personal level - having your character being the one who saves the day, serves as the protagonist to the tale unfolding - the flip side is that it limits "skipping" parts. Since you're the protagonist in the MSQ, you really can't handwave over all the stuff you "should" have done.

And, with Ishgard, you run into that conflict. A new player's protagonist hasn't done the legwork that resulted in the opening of Ishgard's gates, so - by that logic - it shouldn't be open. The issue, though, isn't access to Ishgard itself, or the new areas, or even the flying mounts. What is the issue is that jobs are locked in there too. Au Ra you'll be able to play off the bat (and I'm still mildly curious if they'll just plug the suckers into the normal opening scenes on creation and call it a day...), but DRK/AST/MCH are stuck behind the gates of Ishgard.

So, since you have a lock and key situation here, there's no real way to stick to the character-driven story and still give access to the new jobs while their trainers are in Ishgard. The obvious solution just seems to move them out from Ishgard proper into areas people can access.

BroodingFicus · **05-26-2015, 02:07 PM**

(05-26-2015, 12:23 PM)Telluride Wrote: What scares me about it is how really hush-hush SE has been about a LOT of these questions. We're less than a month from release, and we don't have (as of today, May 26) answers for a lot of very, very relevant questions that directly impact... dun dun DUUNNNNNN... people's willingness to preorder this thing. After seeing so many friends get burned by other games' offers of "Pay Us Now, Find Out About Game Later" (I'm looking at you, Everquest Next, and every "Founder's Package' ever offered for games that tanked), my Suspicion Sense is tingling.

I think that issue right there had been an issue with FFXIV for a while. Player communication is not their strong suit. They have a tendency to play things close to the chest. Sometimes it doesn't bother me but when they are asking me for money (well more than my monthly subscription) it does.Â

The idea that square is not worried about new players is unlikely, as others have said, because as with all MMO's people wander between patches or sometimes permanently. No influx of new players is a death sentence and so even for that reason alone I personally don't want them alienating their new player base. I'd like to see FFXIV stick around for a long time and continue growing. They can't do that if they spend all their time sacrificing things to the gods of narrative.Â

(05-26-2015, 12:39 PM)Naunet Wrote: The differences between lancer and dragoon are... almost zero in terms of play. You use the same weapon, use most of the same abilities, and the same armor, etc. But if a new player comes in wanting to play a machinist or astrologian or dark knight, they're going to have a very bad experience.

I'm flummoxed as to how people areÂ notÂ surprised by the extreme gating for Heavensward. In every other MMO, an expac essentially means a new game. New players aren't shunted into grinding outdated content before they can play with the rest of the folk who have been enjoying the game previously. And no, I'm not just saying that SE should do it one way because that's how everyone else is doing it. Expacs in MMOs are presented that way because it works well. No one enjoys being walled off from friends and other players just because you joined after launch. This reeks of bad decisions on SE's part.

Agree 100%

(05-26-2015, 01:26 PM)Gegenji Wrote: How I would have worked it? Have the new jobs work like ROG did - once you getÂ anyÂ class to 30 (or possibly a matching role - tank for DRK, caster/healer for AST, DPS for MCH), you could start on the new jobs. And then, place them all in accessible areas outside of Ishgard proper so you're not violating the "lore" of Ishgard being sealed off for where your character is in the plot. I originally thought the MCH trainer was gonna be in Limsa attached to the MRD's guild, after all.

Put it there, put AST in the Observatorium, and put DRK... I dunno... somewhere else in the Coerthas Central Highlands. Or, heck, have ALL of them in the Highlands split amongst the three towns there. You might have to make a mad dash past higher level mobs (or get someone to give you a lift there via Draft Chocobo), but you couldÂ getÂ to them once you hit 30.

Then, alter their text based on whether or not Ishgard has actually been opened and BAM. All set. Or, at least, so it seems in my mind. Then all you'd have is the flying mounts and Ishgard behind the "gates" of the MSQ. Or something.

That is more or less how it seems like it should work. Put them out near Coerthas. I mean Ninja/Doma was not introduced until later in the story but any player with a 15 class and who gets up to 20 MSQ can become a rogue. It still means you need to level for a bit as another class but its not a several week commitment if not more (especially if you work etc).Â

Also I couldn't find who mentioned this but for a game that is punishing alts, it seems foul play to then bring out a new race. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad. I've wanted an Au Ra since they announced them but even older players are left with the option of buying/using a fantasia they saved to morph a character they may be fond of after a year or more or suffer through the MSQ again. I like story. I read it the first time and aside from getting fed up with fetch quests and the very....strange tendency your character has of just sorta standing around being everyones errand boy until he is told to go do something great again, I enjoyed it. Mostly. Now I'm done. I still say they need to make it account wide. Complete the story once, done. The longer the MSQ gets the more of a chore it is to catch up a new character.

Melkire · **05-26-2015, 02:14 PM**

Narratively speaking, all three new jobs seem tied to expansion areas. Dark Knights are supposedly an Ishgardian thing, as are machinists who are following Garlond's example. Astrologians practice a Sharlayan art.

Theoretically speaking, if they got shoved out to Coerthas, how would this be handled?

BroodingFicus · **05-26-2015, 02:18 PM**

I understand they are technically all from Ishgard etc but for example given the recent situation in Ishgard I don't think its unbelievable to imagine DK's could be sent to the gates etc as added protection. There could be an Astrologian out at the observatory tower thing whose name eludes me on some sort of pilgrimage or there to study some phenomenon etc. Seeing as you only need one of the class accessible to the player it would be pretty simple. I mean it seems these new classes are actually jobs. None of the other jobs have a 'guild'. They are one offs mostly, people you meet through certain circumstances that allow you to become like them.

Gegenji · **05-26-2015, 02:19 PM**

(05-26-2015, 02:14 PM)Melkire Wrote: Narratively speaking, all three new jobs seem tied to expansion areas. Dark Knights are supposedly an Ishgardian thing, as are machinists who are following Garlond's example. Astrologians practice a Sharlayan art.

Theoretically speaking, if they got shoved out to Coerthas, how would this be handled?

DRG is also an Ishgardian thing, though. So I'm sure they could manage something for DRK. And the folks at the Observatorium are Astrologians, right? Really, the only problem one might be MCH - but if they had it as one of the Limsan flintlock-users adapting more Garlean tech (stolen off raided Garlean ships, maybe), then you don't have it tied to the expansion areas either.

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Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

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