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Sounsyy · **07-03-2015, 05:15 PM**

(07-03-2015, 05:05 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: No need to rub it in, so mean T_T.

Lol, some of these DPS I probably could've out-damaged on PLD sadly. =/

(07-03-2015, 05:05 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Can I vent that STR spec is stupid and trivializes a whole subset of right-side gear?

Not my fault they detached VIT from DEF's stat modifier. (Even though VIT was still pretty useless in 1.0.) I'm still pretty pissed Parry-Strength no longer has STR as a stat modifier. Then maybe Raw Intuition would've been a halfway decent buff or DRK could've had more mitigation...

Rahal · **07-03-2015, 05:16 PM**

There's a time and a place to go full STR on a tank. Main tanking a fight is not the right time or place.

Enla · **07-03-2015, 05:25 PM**

(07-03-2015, 05:02 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(07-03-2015, 04:25 PM)Enla Wrote: after seeing Virella's post I'm starting to wonder if it might not be because they're taking STR gear to fill in gaps while leveling.

Guarantee you it has nothing to do with STR gear. But it does have everything to do with the amount of buffs your tanks are using. Plain and simple. Having 2.5k more HP is only 2.5k more HP that you have to heal back cuz STR tanks and VIT tanks are gonna take the same amount of damage. But a tank that properly rotates his/her cooldowns will never have an issue short of a legitimately inattentive healer. At least with STR your tanks can actually assist with self-healing, whereas that VIT tank it's 100% up to you to do all the work to heal.

Another possibility is slow DPS. Which isn't necessarily because of bad DPS but possibly because DPS are undergeared for whatever raid or are still figuring out the nuances of their new post-50 job. I can't fault them for that, but if DPS is low, you can bet your tank's ass the tank and the healer are going to notice. In these new dungeons, it's not just a matter of inconvenience, it's a matter of life and death, because if a healer starts running low on MP every pull just because it's taking so long to kill a mob, my god.

Which leads into my vent of the day. Bards that are using their new Wanderer's Minuet 100% of the time now. Stahp! It's hurting your dps. I, as a WAR, should not be top DPS in any 4-man party.

I really appreciate you explaining the nuances of the matter Sounsyy! I haven't leveled any of my tanking classes to an appropriate point where I can entirely judge if a tank is doing their rotation and cooldowns poorly beyond how much stress it puts on me as a healer. I won't pretend I'm not at fault for some of the instances that have happened, there's been a few dungeon runs where I should have honestly gone to bed rather than inflict myself on anyone and I do my best to own up to those facts. However it's legitimately been bothering me as to why this is occurring.

I can't say it's necessarily a problem of DPSing as a healer in every instance. For while I focus on healing 95% of the time, I might pop one Holy and a Cleric Stance Assize for the first two pulls to gauge the damage output and how much stress it will otherwise put on me, the moment I notice DPSing isn't going to be viable is the moment I stop entirely. Save the occasional Aero/2/3 dot. Regen is always kept up, occasionally a Medica 2 is thrown onto the ground. Depending upon the situation Assize is used as either a DPS or a Healing skill, but it's very rarely left stagnant, and Shroud of Saints is popped whenever it comes up due to the MP issues you mentioned. (And even when I use Assize as a DPS skill I almost always toggle Cleric Stance off the second the animation is done and go straight back to healing.)

It just really seems like many PLD's are made out of wet paper these days is all. Trash mobs routinely hit some of the ones I've been running with for a third or more of their health even with Shield Oath activated. Though, I did have one PLD who didn't even wish to use that until it was clear that it was the only way he'd be able to keep his threat from the rest of us. It just feels like there is much more room for error with the class, as a healer observing the situation at least. Where as by contrast I literally have only had one DRK that was a minor inconvenience to heal. I almost get giddy when I see DRK's now in the queue because of how easy they tend to be to work with, which is the opposite of what many people are saying is the case. Chances are with the new expac bringing many people back to the game I just got really unlucky with runs I had to work with a PLD and really -damn- lucky with runs I had to work with a DRK.

Perhaps it's a mixture of running into tanks who didn't know what they were doing, but also my being less than at my best for many of the other times it's occurred. I can accept that easily.

Kellach Woods · **07-03-2015, 06:59 PM**

(07-03-2015, 05:15 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Not my fault they detached VIT from DEF's stat modifier. (Even though VIT was still pretty useless in 1.0.) I'm still pretty pissed Parry-Strength no longer has STR as a stat modifier. Then maybe Raw Intuition would've been a halfway decent buff or DRK could've had more mitigation...

Honestly it feels like we can just stop wearing right-side altogether. VIT's useless, STR is only good because it gives us more ATKP to fuel Equilibrium/Second Wind.

I can understand making parry a flat 20%, but it's still a RNG stat that won't really mitigate much.

It feels like SE has no real clue what to do about tanks, and WAR just ended up being on top because of how its mechanics just enable it to do stupid awesome damage.

In 50+ dungeons tanks have it rough until they start matching up the gear. I got SHREDDED my first time through the Vault, and the second run was a lot smoother due to the gear I'd gotten. I got shredded in Fractal and now it's a bit more manageable since I have two i180 pieces.

Caspar · **07-03-2015, 11:48 PM**

(07-03-2015, 05:16 PM)Rahal Wrote: There's a time and a place to go full STR on a tank.

And that time is ALWAYS. Mo deeps.

I wouldn't say Vit is useless. I see it as similar to accuracy. Past a certain point, it serves no purpose, as you will survive everything you're hit with and you can use less and less Vit if you use cooldowns optimally. After a certain point in T13 or whatever, you WILL survive that Akh Morn and even the potential AA crit afterward, and then there's no use in having more HP, in my opinion. It is an unfortunate characteristic to have for a main stat that will probably not go away unless they change the parry system immensely and make it the main stat or something, keeping Vit as a secondary. I don't know how they'd do this; I'd just like parry to be better.

I don't like to complain in here. I think though that one thing I would prefer is that people don't woundlick quite so much. I've been kicked from parties twice now for pretty innocent, obvious advice like "please use buffs" and "please help burn x." In both of these instances, it was due to a healer or tank that wasd being mentored on the fly by the other two party members, who wouldn't suffer any criticism towards their stagnating friend, becoming a worse player by the minute the more they sheltered them from positive advice for fear of bruised egos.

mongi291 · **07-04-2015, 02:20 AM**

(07-03-2015, 11:48 PM)Caspar Wrote:
(07-03-2015, 05:16 PM)Rahal Wrote: There's a time and a place to go full STR on a tank.
And that time is ALWAYS. Mo deeps.

I wouldn't say Vit is useless. I see it as similar to accuracy. Past a certain point, it serves no purpose, as you will survive everything you're hit with and you can use less and less Vit if you use cooldowns optimally. After a certain point in T13 or whatever, you WILL survive that Akh Morn and even the potential AA crit afterward, and then there's no use in having more HP, in my opinion. It is an unfortunate characteristic to have for a main stat that will probably not go away unless they change the parry system immensely and make it the main stat or something, keeping Vit as a secondary. I don't know how they'd do this; I'd just like parry to be better.

I don't like to complain in here. I think though that one thing I would prefer is that people don't woundlick quite so much. I've been kicked from parties twice now for pretty innocent, obvious advice like "please use buffs" and "please help burn x." In both of these instances, it was due to a healer or tank that wasd being mentored on the fly by the other two party members, who wouldn't suffer any criticism towards their stagnating friend, becoming a worse player by the minute the more they sheltered them from positive advice for fear of bruised egos.

In the end, tanks should keep both VIT and STR accessories, unless they can afford to penta-meld gear and make accessories with both VIT and STR. I can't do the latter (I have something like ~740 gil. :c), but first thing I did when in Ishgard was buying STR accessories for soloing or for pre-made parties.

Sounsyy · **07-04-2015, 04:21 AM**

(07-03-2015, 05:16 PM)Rahal Wrote: There's a time and a place to go full STR on a tank. Main tanking a fight is not the right time or place.

Maybe this topic deserves its own separate thread, but the time is always and the place is everywhere. Main tanking is no exception. Vitality, as it stands currently, does not offer any tank anything worthwhile in the grand scheme of content in this game. Whereas STR can be used to great effect in every situation.

VIT does not increase mitigation in any way. VIT increases HP. 1 point of VIT at Lv60 equals 20.5 HP. This means, that the effective difference between a VIT spec'd tank and a STR spec'd tank is exactly 717 HP versus 280 Determination (DTR). What is 717 HP? Nothing. Less than one hit from a Heavensward dungeon mob. So let's take a look at left-sided accessories.

Currently, the highest Item Level accessories obtainable are 4x i180 and 1x i170 ring.
VIT from Fending Accessories: 177 VIT or 3,628 HP
STR from Slaying Accessories: 179 STR or 1,432 DTR

So... which would you rather have?

There is no content in which a tank with 15k HP is necessary over a tank with 12k HP. That 3k extra HP is doing you no good unless you pop cooldowns. And there's no attack in game yet, where a boss will one-shot a 12-15k HP tank. Or even get close. If you are performing the mechanic correctly and are using appropriate buffs.

So in doing dungeon content where (as of right now) big pulls are nearly impossible. And, if possible, are generally more trouble than they're worth. A tank is, at most, going to pull between 5-6 mobs per pull, usually less. Minor adds that have no HP or damage like those in Dusk Vigil or Fractal Continuum do not count.

Let's say every mob hits the tank for 1k HP.
-VIT tank: 15k HP - 1k x5 mobs = 10k HP.
-STR tank: 12k HP - 1k x5 mobs = 7k HP.

Both are still reasonably high. Even without heals, neither tank is going down with the next hit. So, if a healer is DPSing at this point, it's not a big deal. So let's bring self healing into this. We can use either WAR's Equilibrium or PLD's Clemency for this example.

-VIT tank uses Equilibrium, restores 3.3-3.5k HP @660 STR. (This was the number range that I was able to pull when I took off all my STR accessories.)

-STR tank uses Equilibrium, restores 4.4-4.6k HP @850 STR. (This was the number range that I was able to pull when I wore all my STR accessories. Note that I am not full i180.)

PLD's Clemency is likewise affected by STR/Attack Power. So using the above example, the VIT tank now has 13.5k HP while the STR tank is back to full. Without healer assistance. Now combine this with Bloodbath, Storm's Path, Clemency, Equilibrium, Second Wind, Inner Beast, and the myriad of self-healing abilities tanks (WAR in particular) have access to. You may be lacking in 3k HP, which makes no essential difference in content where you're not being one-shot, but now you can also do almost twice as much DPS, as well as self heal.

Is VIT viable? YES. Is it the optimal way to tank? NO.
A VIT tank can tank big hits. So can a STR tank with mitigation. But a STR tank can also top DPS charts and self heal viably on top of being able to tank anything its VIT contemporaries can.

VIT, like Parry, is also useless if you aren't MT. Your HP is not being threatened at all at that point, so why buff into a stat that is only situationally useful? When STR is useful in all encounters, MTing, OTing, DPSing, or soloing.

So, what about abilities which are affected by VIT? Like Stoneskin or PLD's new Divine Veil?

WHM's 18% Stoneskin on VIT tank:
15000x0.18 = 2700
WHM's 18% Stoneskin on STR tank:
12000x0.18 = 2160

500 HP difference. At 12 and 15k HP, negligible.

Divine Veil buffs party for 10% of the PLD's HP. Meaning the difference between the shield of a VIT vs STR tank is 300 HP. Consider where Divine Veil is most likely to be used. Primal 2hrs or Raid-wide dmg like Terraflare. Both types of mechanics are usually hit-for-death or no-dmg-at-all. So even assuming Bismarck Ex's bubble breath phase change attack deals exactly 1500 dmg and the VIT PLD's Divine Veil completely mitigates it, the STR tank's party only took 300 dmg each. A SCH in Cleric Stance could Succor that.

Therein lies the crux of the issue. VIT champions minimal gains while sacrificing far greater utility and maximization.

Virella · **07-04-2015, 05:12 AM**

@ Sounssy, what you are saying is correct, however I am of the opinion that tanks who are absolutely clueless on tanking, and do not do end game, theory crafting, lacking the skill, ought to just go for VIT because the STR stats will not be utilized in any case.

And after levelling AST, and now my SMN/SCH secondly, tanks who have no idea what they are doing, standing in the aoe, not dodging, not using CDs; eh, give me a clueless tank with VIT over STR any day.

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-04-2015, 05:16 AM**

(07-04-2015, 04:21 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(07-03-2015, 05:16 PM)Rahal Wrote: There's a time and a place to go full STR on a tank. Main tanking a fight is not the right time or place.

Maybe this topic deserves its own separate thread, but the time is always and the place is everywhere. Main tanking is no exception. Vitality, as it stands currently, does not offer any tank anything worthwhile in the grand scheme of content in this game. Whereas STR can be used to great effect in every situation.

VIT does not increase mitigation in any way. VIT increases HP. 1 point of VIT at Lv60 equals 20.5 HP. This means, that the effective difference between a VIT spec'd tank and a STR spec'd tank is exactly 717 HP versus 280 Determination (DTR). What is 717 HP? Nothing. Less than one hit from a Heavensward dungeon mob. So let's take a look at left-sided accessories.

Currently, the highest Item Level accessories obtainable are 4x i180 and 1x i170 ring.
VIT from Fending Accessories: 177 VIT or 3,628 HP
STR from Slaying Accessories: 179 STR or 1,432 DTR

So... which would you rather have?

There is no content in which a tank with 15k HP is necessary over a tank with 12k HP. That 3k extra HP is doing you no good unless you pop cooldowns. And there's no attack in game yet, where a boss will one-shot a 12-15k HP tank. Or even get close. If you are performing the mechanic correctly and are using appropriate buffs.

So in doing dungeon content where (as of right now) big pulls are nearly impossible. And, if possible, are generally more trouble than they're worth. A tank is, at most, going to pull between 5-6 mobs per pull, usually less. Minor adds that have no HP or damage like those in Dusk Vigil or Fractal Continuum do not count.

Let's say every mob hits the tank for 1k HP.
-VIT tank: 15k HP - 1k x5 mobs = 10k HP.
-STR tank: 12k HP - 1k x5 mobs = 8k HP.

Both are still reasonably high. Even without heals, neither tank is going down with the next hit. So, if a healer is DPSing at this point, it's not a big deal. So let's bring self healing into this. We can use either WAR's Equilibrium or PLD's Clemency for this example.

-VIT tank uses Equilibrium, restores 3.3-3.5k HP @660 STR. (This was the number range that I was able to pull when I took off all my STR accessories.

-STR tank uses Equilibrium, restores 4.4-4.6k HP @850 STR. (This was the number range that I was able to pull when I wore all my STR accessories. Note that I am not full i180.)

PLD's Clemency is likewise affected by STR/Attack Power. So using the above example, the VIT tank now has 13.5k HP while the STR tank is back to full. Without healer assistance. Now combine this with Bloodbath, Storm's Path, Clemency, Equilibrium, Second Wind, Inner Beast, and the myriad of self-healing abilities tanks (WAR in particular) have access to. You may be lacking in 3k HP, which makes no essential difference in content where you're not being one-shot, but now you can also do almost twice as much DPS, as well as self heal.

Is VIT viable? YES. Is it the optimal way to tank? NO.
A VIT tank can tank big hits. So can a STR tank with mitigation. But a STR tank can also top DPS charts and self heal viably.

VIT, like Parry, is also useless if you aren't MT. Your HP is not being threatened at all at that point, so why buff into a stat that is only situationally useful? When STR is useful in all encounters, MTing, OTing, DPSing, or soloing.

I mean yes this all is logical, but when you're with some shitty pug, you're going to have a bad time without a few VIT accessories.

Sounsyy · **07-04-2015, 06:32 AM**

(07-04-2015, 05:16 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(07-04-2015, 04:21 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Is VIT viable? YES. Is it the optimal way to tank? NO.

I mean yes this all is logical, but when you're with some shitty pug, you're going to have a bad time without a few VIT accessories.

I am talking optimals here. But a shitty pug is a shitty pug, and an average of 3k HP difference will not help you survive that misfortune. And decent self healing could make the difference between life and death. I've expressed in this very thread that I had an AST healer tried to regen bubble me while I fought the chimera pull in Fractal. 3k hp wasn't gonna make a difference at that point.

But just because a random PUG isn't playing their job well/correctly even, is not a legitimate reason to also play my role sub-optimally. If you have the gear and know-how, you should be optimizing your role in all content, not just endgame. And if you're new to tanking or dont have the gear, by all means go VIT, but know that it's doing you very little benefit and you're not going to learn to tank better unless you actually try. Again, VIT is viable, but not optimal.

Kellach Woods · **07-04-2015, 08:10 AM**

I am not an optimal tank.

I went full STR and never looked back.

Will I be more efficient once I get better left-side? Sure.

Leggerless · **07-04-2015, 01:28 PM**

(07-04-2015, 06:32 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(07-04-2015, 05:16 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(07-04-2015, 04:21 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Is VIT viable? YES. Is it the optimal way to tank? NO.

I mean yes this all is logical, but when you're with some shitty pug, you're going to have a bad time without a few VIT accessories.

I am talking optimals here. But a shitty pug is a shitty pug, and an average of 3k HP difference will not help you survive that misfortune. And decent self healing could make the difference between life and death. I've expressed in this very thread that I had an AST healer tried to regen bubble me while I fought the chimera pull in Fractal. 3k hp wasn't gonna make a difference at that point.

But just because a random PUG isn't playing their job well/correctly even, is not a legitimate reason to also play my role sub-optimally. If you have the gear and know-how, you should be optimizing your role in all content, not just endgame. And if you're new to tanking or dont have the gear, by all means go VIT, but know that it's doing you very little benefit and you're not going to learn to tank better unless you actually try. Again, VIT is viable, but not optimal.

Hm. Where else have I seen something like this in another MMO with basically the exact same context? Ah right; PlanetSide 2!

You can find evidence of taking more damage over vitality in other games as well. Considering that the difference is surviving 1 extra hit in combat or taking down your opponent with fewer attacks, many would find the latter to be far more useful with higher returns.

McBeefâ„¢ · **07-04-2015, 02:04 PM**

(07-04-2015, 06:32 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(07-04-2015, 05:16 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(07-04-2015, 04:21 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Is VIT viable? YES. Is it the optimal way to tank? NO.

I mean yes this all is logical, but when you're with some shitty pug, you're going to have a bad time without a few VIT accessories.

I am talking optimals here. But a shitty pug is a shitty pug, and an average of 3k HP difference will not help you survive that misfortune. And decent self healing could make the difference between life and death. I've expressed in this very thread that I had an AST healer tried to regen bubble me while I fought the chimera pull in Fractal. 3k hp wasn't gonna make a difference at that point.

But just because a random PUG isn't playing their job well/correctly even, is not a legitimate reason to also play my role sub-optimally. If you have the gear and know-how, you should be optimizing your role in all content, not just endgame. And if you're new to tanking or dont have the gear, by all means go VIT, but know that it's doing you very little benefit and you're not going to learn to tank better unless you actually try. Again, VIT is viable, but not optimal.

Eh, I just really disagree.

There are plenty of times when a healer has to make the split second decision.

"Should I heal the group? All those DPS just took a huge hit, and I might die as well."

"Or should I heal the tank? They're at around half heath, they'll probably be ok."

Plenty of time healers will make the wrong decision, or there might not even be a right one to make. If the tank has enough health to survive one more auto attack or mechanic while they heal someone else, or step out of an AOE, or whatever, it saves the fight.

I think this is especially true of progression raiding, even on fights without huge hits. The healer has 50 things on their mind (I raid healed for a long time, poorly) and having a bit more health can make a huge difference in lots of areas. For example being able to wait longer to drop the first heal when adds spawn and not risk pulling aggro, or being able to weave in more of your own DPS.

Edit: I think part of the tank's job is to make the healer's job easier, and more VIT gives them more to work with. They have more time to plan things out, more time to handle damage on the DPS, and more time to do damage themselves. Is my basic argument here, and I encourage tanks to take at least a few VIT accessories to help out your poor healer, who is worrying about 10 other things besides just your health, and has most of their heals on 2.5 second casts <_<.

Kage · **07-04-2015, 03:16 PM**

It's my opinion that no amount of HP will make me happy with a tank if they're not going to mitigate properly. I may be just as unhappy with a near 18k Tank who pulls like a dumbass with a tank with 15k HP. I will always be unhappy with a tank who pulls dumb and doesn't mitigate it. Spiking damage of upwards of 5-6k can happen depending on how many are pulled. I'm going to hate either tank just as much no matter if they are VIT or STR.

Kellach Woods · **07-04-2015, 10:01 PM**

The whining about MCH is out of fucking control. We get it its damage is lower than it should be.

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