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Oli! · **09-01-2015, 02:58 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:52 AM)V Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 02:49 AM)Oli! Wrote: Two gate guards still doesn't seem to be quite in that league, is all that I was trying to state.
To whom do you personally believe they referred to when each stated "Our men and women"?

Quote:This makes me wonder whether or not Knights are markedly distinct from Temple Knights, which seem to be a church-run order for believers.
Temple Knights are a distinct order that sits above the rest. Certain quests and dialogue indicate that, much like dragoons, valorous deeds can see a regular knight be elevated and promoted to the esteemed ranks of the Temple Knights.

I believe the best example is a fellow in Whitebrim, I forget which.

I believe that they would be referring to whomever else is within their regiment. That could be anyone that was also hired for that duty; outsiders, Ishgardians, both. Without details on the makeup of that guard force, and who ran it, there is no way to know who would be in that guard force.

I did have the feeling that Temple Knights were above the rest. To clarify my wonder, I'm thinking about whether or not Knights hired by houses come from the Temple Knights, or whomever the Houses deem worthy of the honor. If it is the latter, hirees would certainly be possible, and what you stated here does seem to indicate that, at the very least, Knights are below Temple Knights to begin with.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 03:00 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:58 AM)Oli! Wrote: I believe that they would be referring to whomever else is within their regiment. That could be anyone that was also hired for that duty; outsiders, Ishgardians, both. Without details on the makeup of that guard force, and who ran it, there is no way to know who would be in that guard force.

So are you choosing to ignore that every other gatewarden for every other city state was a member of one of those states' military branches, or do you have an alternative explanation for why xenophobic Ishgard would buck that trend wholesale and just hire outsiders instead?

Vitamin C · **09-01-2015, 03:02 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:48 AM)V Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 02:44 AM)Vitamin C Wrote: If you look at people like Hilda or Aymeric for example
Hilda is an irregular abomination, as far as the majority of mainstream Ishgardians of every race are concerned. Additionally, Word of God maintains that crossbreeding among the races is extraordinarily rare. Your speculation can't be definitively proven incorrect, but there is a heck of a lot of known information stacked against it.

And Aymeric is not a half-breed, just a bastard. Unless I completely missed something in the MSQ.

Wasn't it stated that his father slept with a hyuran maid or something, and that's why he was kept secret as a bastard? I'm probably wrong.

Also it's only common sense that hyur/elezen from years past could've breeded and spread that Ishgardian blood. Saying that they couldn't would almost be like saying that Alberic is only a dragoon by title because we've never seen him perform a jump or wear drachen armor. Hyur can copulate with nearly almost anything, I mean Au Ra can be considered related to them.Â

To add, the Age of Endless Frost brought Miqo'te over long before Hyurs, yes. All of those Miqo'te were tribal or in a tribe, and all Miqo'te are descendants of them. It's very possible that Elezen from that time were as xenophobic then as they are now, and refused to let any in as there aren't any miqo'te "families" in Ishgard, nor any tribes as they would've dropped the tribal naming conventions to better suit their xenophobic environment just like the hyur did. There are only miqo'te that have snuck in there (whom were born in Gridania) for what can be assumed to be as a recent development, and Miqo'te that were welcomed into Sharlayan and who knows where else. It's entirely possible miqo'te could've been in Ishgard from time to time but not long enough to learn such sacred arts or breed with hyur/elezen there to gain descendants. After all, they allowed Au Ra into Ishgard years prior only to massacre them for being dragon-like. The Dravanian Hunters, as Oli pointed out, remark how Eorzeans (those two miqo'te) recently came up there for gil, they're both fledgling hunters.Â

All miqo'te present in Coerthas have only been found in Coerthas as guards in the past five-six years (if we're counting the 1.0 guards), and it can be highly assumed that they were hired as there are two Houses known for taking up mercenaries since they can be paid cheaper than their own people. Again, I reaffirm the difference between being a "Citizen of Coerthas" over a "Citizen of Ishgard"

Sounsyy · **09-01-2015, 03:06 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:49 AM)Oli! Wrote: Two gate guards still doesn't seem to be quite in that league, is all that I was trying to state. I doubt that two guards total were responsible for an entire region. And even if they were, two people is far from a veritable legion of outsiders.

Gatewardens, not guards. They are the "captains" of the camp. And two doesn't seem like a lot until you realize there were only five camps in total. So, five camps, two of which were commanded by Miqo'te Knights of Ishgard.

Both Gatewardens have this in their dialogue:

Pahna Jaab Wrote:Our men and women keep vigil over the outlying areas of Maiden Glen, the Hushed Boughs and Scarwing Fall.

Implies that there are several knights to a camp, not just two guards total for an entire region. This is further supported by Artoirel's earlier quote:

Artoirel Wrote:...Lest you are unaware, the camp was one of many our knights were forced to abandon when we withdrew from the Coerthas western highlands...

Now, if you include the other two Miqo'te I cited originally (N'canago and Ndha Jakkya) four of the five total aetheryte camps in Coerthas now have a represented Miqo'te population. Two of the four Miqo'te in positions of authority as canon Ishgardian Knights.

Take it or leave it. Pass it off as "speculation" or disregard it as "1.0 lore." I'm tired, have work in the morning, and believe I've contributed enough lore citations to this thread for one day.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 03:07 AM**

(09-01-2015, 03:02 AM)Vitamin C Wrote: Wasn't it stated that his father slept with a hyuran maid or something, and that's why he was kept secret as a bastard? I'm probably wrong.

His father messed around as a young priest when he wasn't supposed to. You're getting the story mixed up with Hilda's, whose mother was a Hyur servant.

Quote:Also it's only common sense that hyur/elezen from years past could've breeded and spread that Ishgardian blood.

Except the devs have straight out said that crossbreeding simply does not happen outside of extremely rare circumstances, and we have in-game evidence of how anyone who even dares to be in a cross-racial relationship is treated (Hint: it's not good).

Your argument seems to be that Ishgardians are all Hyur/Elezen halfbreeds and that simply does not fly with how the setting has been constructed and supported.

Zelmanov · **09-01-2015, 03:07 AM**

(09-01-2015, 02:42 AM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 02:34 AM)Zelmanov Wrote: In all due respect, while your argument is correct, using the job questline weakens your aurgment. the Dragoon questline deals with the exceptions of the exceptions. You are the 2nd Azure dragoon when there should ONLY BE ONE. Given the religious nature of Ishgard, if Halone chose a Miqo'te to be the Azure Dragoon, they sure as hell would shut up

NOT ONLY THAT. But Estienien has to clarify around 30 times in the MSQ (If you go as Dragoon) that you are Azure Dragoon, and that is clarifications to People like AYMERIC, so it is clear VERY FEW PEOPLE know who or what you are. To everyone else, you are just a lance wielding schmo.

Any plot that directly relates to what the main character in the MSQ or job quests can get away with has to be analyzed under immense scrutiny for a case of exceptionalism.

Which is what the Dragoon job quests are PLAGUED WITH.

It is the reason why Paladins are so comfortable with their job definitions and Dragoons get a 10 page discussion like this every few months.

It has gotten easier with Heavensward, but it is still VERY HARD to separate what is just a quality of BAHAMUT KILLER, WOL and every day schmuck of the same job title.

Still no difference in the dialogue or treatment of the character regardless of race.

Plenty of people in the real world who are zealous levels of religious are still also racist. The fact that someone is supposedly blessed by your god doesn't erase your prejudices or make you instantly regard them with the utmost of kindness and respect. There'd be this begrudging tone... this reluctant acceptance of divine will in spite of your hesitation to accept what's occurring. Not "Oh hello there, person whose race I'm not even at all fazed by".

Firstly, the people you deal with in 30-50? Its Alberic, a borderline dragon sympathizer and a moderate, if not progressive. Its not a stretch to believe he'd take anyone in just because of his position as "enlightened". The people that overlook your training? SERIOUSLY doubt your ability, on the basis of being an outsider. Estinien? He's high on eye juice and just sees you as a tool for more power, which ultimate causes his fall. Race isn't an issue because at that point you are an unofficial pet project not even in scrutiny of the greater society of Ishgard

50-60, Heustienne seeks you out, she drinks the koolaid and buys the premise. no one else really acknowledges you as Azure Dragoon, she only cares about power to be stronger and cares not for the source. Do you think seeking the outsider Azure dragoon for help, which she must have heard stories of is really going to be stopped because of race at that point?

as said before, no one even recognizes you as Azure Dragoon unless Estinien makes a point of it in the MSQ. The part of race at those points is so totally eclipsed by larger issues. It is not so much the fact that the racism isn't there as it is the context of those encounters are not predicated on race.

you are talking about the same MSQ that doesn't take into account what you are wearing, EVER. I can trot up to the Holy See in a bikini and not a word said, I go see the Sultana in a heavy coat and snowman hat and not an eyelash is batted. Want to argue that exotic dress isn't criticized? Look a the hildebrand quest where the cross dressing itself is the thing put into question. Thing is, I can do something quite similar and go into quests where NO ONE is stunned by my outfit.

The reason for the lack of change regardless of race or gender is for the most part the intention of normalizing the experience for millions of combinations of different characters playing different roles playing different races and genders. The writers DO NOT (whether its a good or a bad thing is different) want to account for these differences, they do not want to encode say, a violent distrust of lalafels in focal point of a quest because if a lalafel comes by the outcome should be much more dramatically different than say a hyur popped up.Â

So of course every character the WOL runs into/interacts with will not be barred on race, but by being "unproven" or an "outsider" or "Want to see if you are as good as they say."

anything that involves the player character directly is under scrutiny for exceptionalism.

Oli! · **09-01-2015, 03:10 AM**

(09-01-2015, 03:00 AM)V Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 02:58 AM)Oli! Wrote: I believe that they would be referring to whomever else is within their regiment. That could be anyone that was also hired for that duty; outsiders, Ishgardians, both. Without details on the makeup of that guard force, and who ran it, there is no way to know who would be in that guard force.
So are you choosing to ignore that every other gatewarden for every other city state was a member of one of those states' military branches, or do you have an alternative explanation for why xenophobic Ishgard would buck that trend wholesale and just hire outsiders instead?

Well, I can think of two main reasons.

The first reason is that if we look at them at face value, they don't seem to be wearing the traditional military armor seemed for Ishgardian armed forces.

The second and more important reason is that, based on what we know of Ishgard and its houses, the Ishgardian State does not always provide the military force. If a claim is staked by a house, then they are the ones that must provide the Knights, a system that is quite different when compared to the military forces of the other nations. If we think of this in tandem with that quote about a house hiring outsiders, then it seems quite possible that whatever House staked that territory may have hired outsiders to bolster their forces. I cannot think of a location outside of Ishgard that is staked by the state instead of a House instead, so this location seems as if it would be in possession of a House, seeing as it is outside of the city in order to follow this pattern.

This would be my reasoning behind it.

Vitamin C · **09-01-2015, 03:15 AM**

(09-01-2015, 03:07 AM)V Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 03:02 AM)Vitamin C Wrote: Wasn't it stated that his father slept with a hyuran maid or something, and that's why he was kept secret as a bastard? I'm probably wrong.
His father messed around as a young priest when he wasn't supposed to. You're getting the story mixed up with Hilda's, whose mother was a Hyur servant.

Quote:Also it's only common sense that hyur/elezen from years past could've breeded and spread that Ishgardian blood.
Except the devs have straight out said that crossbreeding simply does not happen outside of extremely rare circumstances, and we have in-game evidence of how anyone who even dares to be in a cross-racial relationship is treated (Hint: it's not good).

Your argument seems to be that Ishgardians are all Hyur/Elezen halfbreeds and that simply does not fly with how the setting has been constructed and supported.

I thought they specified the type of person that young priest messed with, my memory on that is shoddy lol.

As for your second point, Those same devs also answered "Yes" that it does happen. Sure, it's rare. But it happens, and it's possible that say a mutt like Hilda years prior mated to another hyur, and the baby just came out with only dominant hyur genes. While I can't really stand for how DNA works as far as a Final Fantasy game goes, yes it's purely speculation, but it can't be discredited that those Ishgardian Hyuran Dragoons might have an elezen in their line.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threa...post490835

My argument isn't that Ishgardians are all Hyur/Elezen halfbreeds because not all Ishgardians are hyuran dragoons. Just that there could've been a few hyuran bloodlines that interbreeded with an elezen descendant of the original dragoons.

Oli! · **09-01-2015, 03:16 AM**

As an interesting aside, Google found meÂ this guy. He's also a gatewarden in Coerthas.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 03:17 AM**

(09-01-2015, 03:10 AM)Oli! Wrote: The second and more important reason is that, based on what we know of Ishgard and its houses, the Ishgardian State does not always provide the military force.

Neither does Ul'dah or Limsa.

Brass Blades are not military, they are privatized guards in the employ of wealthy nobles.

Likewise, the Knights of the Barracuda were part of a specific order/crew of pirates/privateers under the direct command of the Admiral of Limsa.

Every other state save for Gridania and Ala Mhigo were as decentralized as Ishgard, if not moreso.

In the end, all I can do is applaud you're significant, if perplexing, enthusiasm for skepticism and tell you that I'm going to err on the side of the simplest answer with the least basis in speculation: Ishgardian knights were guarding Ishgardian territory and fulfilling their duties as Ishgardian citizens.

(09-01-2015, 03:15 AM)Vitamin C Wrote: but it can't be discredited that those Ishgardian Hyuran Dragoons might have an elezen in their line.

True, but there's also zero lore in existence that suggests Elezen blood is necessary to become a dragoon. Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence, but it is still absence of evidence.

Vitamin C · **09-01-2015, 03:27 AM**

(09-01-2015, 03:17 AM)V Wrote: True, but there's also zero lore in existence that suggests Elezen blood is necessary to become a dragoon. Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence, but it is still absence of evidence.

The original descendants of Haldrath can be assumed to be Elezen since at that time, they were predominantly Elezen. I'm not saying that Elezen blood is necessary to become a dragoon, just the blood of Ishgardians who took upon those dragon eyes, which were all originally Elezen. I'm simply putting two and two together that a descendant of one of those Elezen (read: Ishgardians) bred with a Hyur.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 03:29 AM**

(09-01-2015, 03:27 AM)Vitamin C Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 03:17 AM)V Wrote: True, but there's also zero lore in existence that suggests Elezen blood is necessary to become a dragoon. Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence, but it is still absence of evidence.
I'm not saying that Elezen blood is necessary to become a dragoon, just the blood of Ishgardians who took upon those dragon eyes, which were all originally Elezen.

So you're saying Elezen blood is necessary to become a dragoon.

And frankly, by this logic, Hyur dragoons should be extremely rare as well, if not close to nonexistent.

Let's say these extremely rare instances of crossbreeding happened, and the interracial kids got to grow up in Ishgard. How is it you suppose those tiny, exceptional, discriminated against family lines survived for five hundred years in a nation that constantly sends its poor and unwanted (along with some of the rich and wanted) out to fight and die against an unrelenting horde of flying firebreathing monsters? Is every Hyur dragoon just part of one of the luckiest family lines in history?

Vitamin C · **09-01-2015, 03:33 AM**

(09-01-2015, 03:29 AM)V Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 03:27 AM)Vitamin C Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 03:17 AM)V Wrote: True, but there's also zero lore in existence that suggests Elezen blood is necessary to become a dragoon. Absence of evidence may not be evidence of absence, but it is still absence of evidence.
I'm not saying that Elezen blood is necessary to become a dragoon, just the blood of Ishgardians who took upon those dragon eyes, which were all originally Elezen.
So you're saying Elezen blood is necessary to become a dragoon.

And frankly, by this logic, Hyur dragoons should be extremely rare as well, if not close to nonexistent.

Let's say these extremely rare instances of crossbreeding happened, and the interracial kids got to grow up in Ishgard. How is it you suppose those tiny, exceptional, discriminated against family lines survived for five hundred years in a nation that constantly sends its poor and unwanted (along with some of the rich and wanted) out to fight and die against an unrelenting horde of flying firebreathing monsters? Is every Hyur dragoon just part of one of the luckiest family lines in history?

If you want to put it that way, then I'm implying that the lore that is present about the original dragoons (since Haldrath and his descendants started off purely Elezen) implies that indeed, Elezen blood is necessary to become a dragoon. Since, Ishgardian blood is needed to be a dragoon and those original Ishgardians that partook of the power of the eyes were Elezen.

I would consider Hyur dragoons to be rather uncommon (not rare) for exactly that reason, because even amongst Temple Knights, there's such a huge dominance of Elezen in their population. Also consider that dragoons are, in fact, rare. Only the elite of those lancers ever become a legitimate dragoon beyond the title of prestige and there's few enough of them that they don't care at all about the politics of Ishgard. I would also have trouble pointing out which dragoon in the cinematic are hyuran compared to the WoL in it.

Oli! · **09-01-2015, 03:33 AM**

(09-01-2015, 03:17 AM)V Wrote:
(09-01-2015, 03:10 AM)Oli! Wrote: The second and more important reason is that, based on what we know of Ishgard and its houses, the Ishgardian State does not always provide the military force.
Neither does Ul'dah or Limsa.

Brass Blades are not military, they are privatized guards in the employ of wealthy nobles.

Likewise, the Knights of the Barracuda were part of a specific order/crew of pirates/privateers under the direct command of the Admiral of Limsa.

Every other state save for Gridania and Ala Mhigo were as decentralized as Ishgard, if not moreso.

The Brass Blades are privately funded, but they are still the major entity with policing functions, making them distinct and solidified in function, unlike the scattered nature of the House Knights. Anywhere in Ul'dah or Thanalan you look that needs a guard and isn't a mine or a railway, you'll find a Brass Blade. Compare and Contrast the situation of the House Knights, which vary in allegiance based on the claim of the area. The Sultansworn are the Sultan / Sultana's guard force, while the Stone Torches are specifically guards for railways and mines overseen by the Mineral Concern (making them a much more specific and potentially privately-funded police force). The Immortal Flames is a Grand Company, and seemingly partakes only in things that require more manpower. The House Knights, meanwhile, are fragmented into at least four parts for each High House, and potentially more depending on how minor houses work (I'm not versed in that area). Discounting the Sultansworn (which are analogous to the secret service), we are left with 3 law-handling factions in Ul'dah: The Brass Blades, the Stone Torches, and the Immortal Flames. Even if we count the Sultansworn, we are still left with 4 factions to Ishgard's minimum of 5; Knights for each High House, and the Temple Knights to boot.

I would go on to argue that the Stone Torches wouldn't count either, because whereas the Blades are a private force that polices public property (or at the very least, property that is not strictly owned by their financiers) the Stone Torches patrol private property entirely.

For Limsa Lominsa, the Knights of the Barracuda, the Yellowjackets, and the Maelstrom brings us to three, unless I'm forgetting something. "Unofficial Pirate Sanctions" might make things a bit messy, but that refers more to the freedom of the open sea, and not the city and its surrounding areas.

So I would still say that Ishgard is the most decentralized nation in terms of lawgiving.

Either way, we are still left with the idea that these are Knights hired by Houses that are staking these claims, which could potentially be anyone that they wish to hire.

V'aleera · **09-01-2015, 03:35 AM**

Right, but you're not presenting evidence to support your claim. All you're doing is demonstrating that the first dragoons were elezen.

By that logic, only lalafell can be Scholars, Thaumaturges, and Black Mages, and only elezen can be Conjurers.

(09-01-2015, 03:33 AM)Oli! Wrote: Either way, we are still left with the idea that these are Knights hired by Houses that are staking these claims, which could potentially be anyone that they wish to hire.

And I presume you have a basis of support for speculation that xenophobic Ishgardians would not only knight but place in command outsiders rather than their own citizens?

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