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Ashe · **11-18-2015, 06:36 PM**

(11-18-2015, 06:25 PM)Sig Wrote:
(11-18-2015, 05:51 PM)Ashe Wrote: The list goes on...I have standards. And I bet you have standards too even if you don't want to admit them.

We all gravitate towards roleplay that is consistent with our own style and preferences. Â There is nothing wrong about this. Â It is unfortunate, however, when a preference or style turns into a "standard," which closes the door to many potentially valuable forms of roleplay and scenes.

If you say you're not guilty of that, I'd have to call your bluff.
No one is innocent of letting their biases dictate which RP they choose to pursue...or not.

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-18-2015, 06:38 PM**

(11-18-2015, 06:25 PM)Sig Wrote:
(11-18-2015, 05:51 PM)Ashe Wrote: The list goes on...I have standards. And I bet you have standards too even if you don't want to admit them.

We all gravitate towards roleplay that is consistent with our own style and preferences. Â There is nothing wrong about this. Â It is unfortunate, however, when a preference or style turns into a "standard," which closes the door to many potentially valuable forms of roleplay and scenes.

Think of it like this Sig.Â

Let's say you have a 10% chance of 'clicking' with a random RPer. You have no standards, you RP with anyone regardless of lore breaking, bad grammar, whatever. So if you RP with 100 people, you might have 10 really cool interesting experiences.Â

Not disputing that.

However if you have a standard that ups that number, to say... 20% or 30%, you'll actually be getting more interesting RP with people. You might miss out on some people, but overall, you are gaining.

If you have no standards, you would actually miss out on on people, because you would be wasting a lot of time pursuing leads that do not go anywhere.

Paradox · **11-18-2015, 07:14 PM**

Quote:No one is innocent of letting their biases dictate which RP they choose to pursue...or not.

This is an odd statement for me because with me it's only partially true. I honestly don't RP with people who meet my asshole bias. What decides mostly who I don't RP with is their player and their behavior towards others more than their characters. If I know someone's an asshole, tends to shit talk about people, fuck people over, don't play reindeer games with them because they're snobbish, cliquish, etc. I don't really want to roleplay with them. No matter how lore compliant or cool their characters are or how many people say they're awesome.

The only bias I have against actual characters or character ideas are ones that are made to make fun of minorities, groups, or sexualities specifically. So I suppose in a sense this statement is true for me, but it kind of errs into common sense territory in that regard. But I'm also quite open minded otherwise. I've gotten into RP with ERP-centric/focused characters before, and turned it via conversation and interaction into normal everyday RP, because even if someone's specifically looking for one thing, it doesn't mean they eschew the other, if you can turn it in that direction. Through effort and attention, a lot can be done. News on that at eleven. But, that brings me to my view.

The problem is, in this community I've noticed, a lot of simply judging or being personally biased turns into shaming, mocking, and shit-talking. It's one thing to say that something isn't up to your standards, but it seems to be that a lot of people want to roleplay police and use 'the community standard' as their Captain America shield. I've seen a lot of threads asking about something, and while it starts as constructive discussion, certain individuals tend to come in and just bash the unholy hell out of someone's concept or idea and state why they're wrong as fact rather than opinion, then shut down any arguments or facts to the contrary and sit on their soapbox, calling them selfish, or lazy, or other such things. That's more than a standard, that's being intolerant.

The amount of close-mindedness generally has nothing to do with actual standards, and everything to do with heavy biases or past experiences that went sour. These things are different. For example. Someone may be playing a world-hopper. (This seems to be a hot topic.) Instead of interacting with this person IC and thus, IC deciding that maybe this person is crazy, which is very viable, they instead decide to never RP with this person, who outside of the character idea they may not like otherwise may very well be an excellent roleplayer. But the moment someone hits another person's bias meter, they never want to RP with that person, even if they run into another character of theirs that may be entirely lore compliant.

The thing about having standards is that standards aren't always able to be met by everyone, and when people tend to bunch into groups, as people are wont to do, it cuts people out that otherwise would be fun to play with. Standards often also tend to create tension as much as doing any weeding out, especially I've noticed, with people that hug lore like a bible, despite the fact the lore has a lot of holes and inconsistencies at times. That, and this community has some of the worst standards of character idea tolerance I've come across in my 20+ years of roleplay. Don't get me wrong; I have seen worse, but this is in the top 10 by far. If I had a dollar for every instance of the words 'edgy' or 'special snowflake' uttered casually by people in a snide fashion at some just asking for opinions, I'd be sitting on Trump money.

There are some accepting people. I've met some. But I also see a lot of judgment. And I don't mean casual judgment based on standards, or 'I don't agree with this idea, but best of luck'. I mean snobbery, mockery, and disdain before they ever get a chance to interact with someone more than once or twice. I agree with OP to some extent. It is good to be open minded and not be judgmental. And I disagree to some point; we are allowed to have our own standards because we do want to have fun and not have our time wasted. But I also know some people will sit in their own corners, play in their sandboxes, and pull a George Lucas and kick all the toys out they don't like and say 'my sandbox'. And that makes me a little sad. I think we should all be a little more accepting and open, or at the very least, not be complete douche canoes about it when we don't like something. Giving someone a chance may indeed waste your time. But you might also be pleasantly surprised. You never know.

Just my two gil.

S'imba · **11-18-2015, 07:15 PM**

I think judging may be the wrong word...there's nothing wrong with avoiding RP that you're not into. It's when things get taken out of character and condescending when it becomes a problem. Calling people out as bad or going into a linkshell and saying how so and so is a bad rper is what in my opinion needs to be avoided. All that will cause is more people to avoid the roleplayer, which only makes the situation worse. Yeah there's a lot of stereotypes out there. You see a scantily clad cat girl, yeah chances are high that they could be just looking for erp. You want to avoid a character like that and not risk having to rp with someone like that it's fine. It's when a person starts vocalizing those assumptions that's the problem. Even if that character isn't an erper and their character is scantily clad for an actual IC reason suddenly they start getting a negative reputation. Â There's a lot of people that are new to rping and normally need a little extra patience. If that person gets hit with a lot of negativity they'll almost certainly be pushed away and have several stereotypes about RPers confirmed causing them to just become another troll.
People all have standards and there's nothing wrong with that. But if you're out in a public place or event then you're going to have to deal with what those standards say is subpar rp. You'll have to deal with RP that may be considered disruptive or obnoxious. Though I think in those situations is where people need to exercise extra tolerance even if you don't like the character or rper. A person may not like it when people post short little responses. Though then there's people who won't appreciate waiting for a paragraph of text, describing every little facial movement for a yes or no question.Â

Basically just be nice to each other and avoid the backbiting.

Ashe · **11-18-2015, 07:28 PM**

(11-18-2015, 07:14 PM)A Wrote:
Quote:No one is innocent of letting their biases dictate which RP they choose to pursue...or not.

This is an odd statement for me because with me it's only partially true. I honestly don't RP with people who meet my asshole bias. What decides mostly who I don't RP with is their player and their behavior towards others more than their characters. If I know someone's an asshole, tends to shit talk about people, fuck people over, don't play reindeer games with them because they're snobbish, cliquish, etc. I don't really want to roleplay with them. No matter how lore compliant or cool their characters are or how many people say they're awesome.

The only bias I have against actual characters or character ideas are ones that are made to make fun of minorities, groups, or sexualities specifically. So I suppose in a sense this statement is true for me, but it kind of errs into common sense territory in that regard. But I'm also quite open minded otherwise. I've gotten into RP with ERP-centric/focused characters before, and turned it via conversation and interaction into normal everyday RP, because even if someone's specifically looking for one thing, it doesn't mean they eschew the other, if you can turn it in that direction. Through effort and attention, a lot can be done. News on that at eleven. But, that brings me to my view.

The problem is, in this community I've noticed, a lot of simply judging or being personally biased turns into shaming, mocking, and shit-talking. It's one thing to say that something isn't up to your standards, but it seems to be that a lot of people want to roleplay police and use 'the community standard' as their Captain America shield. I've seen a lot of threads asking about something, and while it starts as constructive discussion, certain individuals tend to come in and just bash the unholy hell out of someone's concept or idea and state why they're wrong as fact rather than opinion, then shut down any arguments or facts to the contrary and sit on their soapbox, calling them selfish, or lazy, or other such things. That's more than a standard, that's being intolerant.

The amount of close-mindedness generally has nothing to do with actual standards, and everything to do with heavy biases or past experiences that went sour. These things are different. For example. Someone may be playing a world-hopper. (This seems to be a hot topic.) Instead of interacting with this person IC and thus, IC deciding that maybe this person is crazy, which is very viable, they instead decide to never RP with this person, who outside of the character idea they may not like otherwise may very well be an excellent roleplayer. But the moment someone hits another person's bias meter, they never want to RP with that person, even if they run into another character of theirs that may be entirely lore compliant.

The thing about having standards is that standards aren't always able to be met by everyone, and when people tend to bunch into groups, as people are wont to do, it cuts people out that otherwise would be fun to play with. Standards often also tend to create tension as much as doing any weeding out, especially I've noticed, with people that hug lore like a bible, despite the fact the lore has a lot of holes and inconsistencies at times. That, and this community has some of the worst standards of character idea tolerance I've come across in my 20+ years of roleplay. Don't get me wrong; I have seen worse, but this is in the top 10 by far. If I had a dollar for every instance of the words 'edgy' or 'special snowflake' uttered casually by people in a snide fashion at some just asking for opinions, I'd be sitting on Trump money.

There are some accepting people. I've met some. But I also see a lot of judgment. And I don't mean casual judgment based on standards, or 'I don't agree with this idea, but best of luck'. I mean snobbery, mockery, and disdain before they ever get a chance to interact with someone more than once or twice. I agree with OP to some extent. It is good to be open minded and not be judgmental. And I disagree to some point; we are allowed to have our own standards because we do want to have fun and not have our time wasted. But I also know some people will sit in their own corners, play in their sandboxes, and pull a George Lucas and kick all the toys out they don't like and say 'my sandbox'. And that makes me a little sad. I think we should all be a little more accepting and open, or at the very least, not be complete douche canoes about it when we don't like something. Giving someone a chance may indeed waste your time. But you might also be pleasantly surprised. You never know.

Just my two gil.

If you see THAT much disdain for other people's stuff, then you're hanging with the wrong crowd.Â

I don't really RP with people who sit in a corner and talk about people they don't RP with/randomly see on the street in Ul'Dah and make fun of them, etc.Â
If you're hanging with those kinds of people, then maybe find a new group.Â

My FC will sometimes make fun of each other's stuff because it's legit funny and fun to joke about out of context. But ripping on other people is not okay.
Â
Making suggestions, constructive comments with concrete examples, answering someone's question honestly with examples and back up comments and suggestions...I don't see what's wrong with that.Â

Having standards is okay though. I have them and I've adjusted to other people who may not be used to certain levels of RP. My hope usually that that person will expand what they try, etc.Â

Ahhhhh I forgot what I'm trying to say...words >.<

Paradox · **11-18-2015, 07:38 PM**

Quote:Making suggestions, constructive comments with concrete examples, answering someone's question honestly with examples and back up comments and suggestions...I don't see what's wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with that. But a lot of the time on these very forums, I see constructive criticism turn into snarking, sniping, and being very harsh as opposed to constructive. There's a lot of threads on this forum I've observed where people come in name-calling (again, the whole 'edgy', 'snowflake', etc) just because that person doesn't like the idea, and instead of being constructive, they're douchey.

Jokingly making fun of each other's stuff among people you hang with is different from bashing people's ideas because you don't like them. Keep in mind I'm using 'you' as a general statement here, I'm not actually directing that at you personally. But I do see it a lot on the forums here especially. I know people get tired of addressing the same topics, and that's part of it, but still.

I adjust to most things, myself. It might be because I'm old, and I've been at this for so long, I just like to see what people will do. Not having a life also means I have a little more time to waste, overall. Maybe it's that. I dunno.

But yeah, words are hard. I think words should be outlawed. We could communicate by waving fish around. That might be fun. Especially since a lot of topics around here tend to flounder anyway. >>

DoomsdayClock · **11-18-2015, 07:45 PM**

I think there is a positive message in the initial post that is valid for good community building. I hope that it doesn't get too lost somewhere along the way.

Ashe · **11-18-2015, 07:47 PM**

(11-18-2015, 07:38 PM)A Wrote:
Quote:Making suggestions, constructive comments with concrete examples, answering someone's question honestly with examples and back up comments and suggestions...I don't see what's wrong with that.

There's nothing wrong with that. But a lot of the time on these very forums, I see constructive criticism turn into snarking, sniping, and being very harsh as opposed to constructive. There's a lot of threads on this forum I've observed where people come in name-calling (again, the whole 'edgy', 'snowflake', etc) just because that person doesn't like the idea, and instead of being constructive, they're douchey.

Jokingly making fun of each other's stuff among people you hang with is different from bashing people's ideas because you don't like them. Keep in mind I'm using 'you' as a general statement here, I'm not actually directing that at you personally. But I do see it a lot on the forums here especially. I know people get tired of addressing the same topics, and that's part of it, but still.

I adjust to most things, myself. It might be because I'm old, and I've been at this for so long, I just like to see what people will do. Not having a life also means I have a little more time to waste, overall. Maybe it's that. I dunno.

But yeah, words are hard. I think words should be outlawed. We could communicate by waving fish around. That might be fun. Especially since a lot of topics around here tend to flounder anyway. >>

Yes, that!!
I seem to have forgotten my coffee today, so words are not on my side...

Dis · **11-18-2015, 08:01 PM**

Iâ€™ve actually had some problems of my own when it comes to dealing with the judgmental side of things. That side of things is precisely why I completely rewrote Glioca to have two separate backstories: one for private play, and one for public play. The two eventually merged, and Iâ€™ve distanced myself a great deal from her â€˜world-travelerâ€™ in the sense of crossing dimensions, into a world-traveler in the literal sense that sheâ€™s traveled all over the world to and through the various continents.

The biggest problem Iâ€™ve noticed is that a number of people originally â€˜wrote me offâ€™ when I first created the character and started talking about her on the RPC. Fast forward almost six months later, and some of these same people still avoid me, despite the way I and my character have changed. I made one statement, once, and was written off, and told by others that they wouldnâ€™t interact with my character. Some individuals still avoid my other characters, including those who are lore compliant.

Iâ€™d like to think Iâ€™m not a bad RPer, but when faced with clusters of people who donâ€™t want to interact with me based on my character concept, it flies in the face of everything Iâ€™ve ever learned about RPers as an open-minded group of creative individuals who I can create collaborative works with. Itâ€™s also a considerable blow to oneâ€™s self-esteem.

How many RPers have others directly or indirectly insulted who have in turn withdrawn into a bubble and ended up inevitably abandoning their story, their character, or RP entirely as a hobby? As a community, we have an effect on others in our community. Words are a powerful tool, as weâ€™re all aware.

And before anyone goes on about not being validated by someone elseâ€™s views and opinions on your writing, I urge you to think of how you yourself would feel if someone refused to write with you because they decided they didnâ€™t like interacting with your specific type of character (mundane, slice of life, combat oriented, etc). I think most people would brush it off, but not everyone would.

From the perspective of an individual who has been shunned for a world-traveler concept, I can say that one of the worst feelings in the world is being told that your creative idea, thoughts and effort is â€˜worth lessâ€™ than the creative ideas and thoughts of someone else.

Many people consider world traveling characters to be lazy, for example, but I feel like this isnâ€™t the case. Those who opt to play these types of characters have to spend weeks, if not months very carefully weaving their story into the existing lore, combing it for loopholes and ways we might â€˜go aroundâ€™ but still â€˜fit withinâ€™ the system.

People donâ€™t want to play a â€˜special snowflakeâ€™ or an â€˜edgelordâ€™. They want to play a concept that is outside of their normal bubble, one that they find interesting and engaging, and hope that others also find interesting and engaging. Maybe they want their character to be treated as crazy, maybe they want those skeptical reactions and those outlandish attitudes from others. By shunning them and refusing to interact with them, weâ€™re isolating them, and telling them that theyâ€™re â€˜wrongâ€™, or somehow â€˜worseâ€™ than we are, for playing something different.

I can only sum this up in one sentence. Thatâ€™s not okay. You can have standards, you can have views and opinions, but please try and remember that thereâ€™s another person on the other end of that character youâ€™re bashing, one who is trying to be creative with you, not just around you.

Zhavi · **11-18-2015, 09:20 PM**

If you're saying don't be an asshole unnecessarily (sometimes the raw, brutal truth is a good thing), then I agree.

If you're saying something around the sentiment of don't form opinions and judgements about who people are oocly based on their rp, then I agree (minus predatory behaviors).

If you're saying don't attach your opinion of someone's writing to the individual who wrote it (ie, their writing is bad, therefore they're bad), then I agree.

If you're saying scrub your mind clean of any sort of negative opinion on others' writing/roleplay based upon that writing and your own preferences or ideas about what is good or bad writing/roleplay, then no. I vehemently do not agree.

aside: I ain't changing my preferences just because someone's feelings might get hurt. Live and let live. I have precious little free time, and I will not spend it rping something I do not enjoy. However, I'm not going to put someone down for enjoying something I don't, either. You do you.

Klynzahr · **11-18-2015, 10:01 PM**

In my opinion there is a distinct difference between having stylistic preferences and tying yourself into a set of unwavering standards.

Just because you are willing to give any RPer a shot, doesn't mean that you will click with all of them, but even among RPers that use the same post length, lore compliance, genera focus, gender portrayals, spell check program and syntax choices that you do.... you will still find people that you don't work well with.

Sometimes branching out of your comfort zone can bring a pleasant surprise.

I definitely agree with the OP. Avoiding snap judgements can broaden your RP and lead toÂ many rewarding story lines. It certainly doesn't mean that you need to abandon your own standards of writing or that you need to enjoy every RP scene.

Most of the time it will be a dud...

...... but it will always gain you more RP opportunities..... it might expose you to a new genera you had never tried.......Â it might inspire a poor writer to improve..... and it might turn out to be a really great story.

Big Grin

Zhavi · **11-18-2015, 10:15 PM**

What I read from that sort of argument is this:

I do not like writing romance rp 95% of the time. The remaining 5% I write with players I know and trust. What you are telling me is that I should spend time and effort with people looking for romance rp just because there is a very slim chance I might find something worthwhile, when I am happiest looking for the kind of rp that I feel like rping.

I feel like this argument is damning anyone who knows what they like. That's not saying that anyone is being closeminded, it's saying "I know what I like and until someone exceptional comes along, I will do what makes me happy."

Besides which, I feel like there's this sort of disconnect in the judgement-free arguments, where you assume that people are sticking completely rigidly to some inner set of guidelines. I highly doubt that's the case. Could be there's some like that, but I think for most people you write with people whose writing or characters you are drawn to.

I have had many, many experiences where I've tried to rp with someone even when my initial feeling was that I would not enjoy the rp. Every. Single. Time. I did not enjoy the rp (since I've been rping around 13-14 years now, and I used to rp every day, there've been a lot of times).

I know what I like, I know what I don't like. When I'm not sure, I tend to give it a shot. But when I know myself and the things I like and don't like, why would I punish myself by trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? (and that's not to say people don't occasionally try things again to see if anything has changed -- like I said, if I start feeling neutral about something or unsure, I try it again, but most of the time with things I don't like, I don't like).

It's like when people say "OMG you don't like to eat __ ?????? YOU'RE SO WRONG, clearly you just haven't given it enough of a chance! Have you tried it this way? Well, I'm going to cook for you/take you to a restaurant because you might like it!"

I hate that.

Temmi · **11-18-2015, 10:25 PM**

(11-18-2015, 08:01 PM)Glioca Sargonnai Wrote: -snip-

It's very unfortunate that you experienced something like this, and I can only imagine how awful that must feel.

However, I just don't think it's fair for you to expect people to change their standards and give you a chance if they're honestly and truly just not interested.

Respect needs to be on both sides.

I myself might have made some judgement if the first thing I learned about you was that your character was a dimension-hopper of some sort, as I honestly can't deal with that type of roleplay in the view of the world that I believe in.

And that's okay. Not everyone needs to roleplay with everyone else. Maybe I would have missed out on a great character and a great player. Maybe we really would have just had too different views to get along.

Now please don't misrepresent what I'm saying here. I absolutely do not think it's okay for someone to harass or belittle someone due to their roleplay choices. I simply believe that people are allowed to make their choices, form their opinions, and deserve respect for them, even if they aren't the same as yours.

V'aleera · **11-18-2015, 10:29 PM**

(11-18-2015, 09:20 PM)Zhavi Wrote: If you're saying don't be an asshole unnecessarily (sometimes the raw, brutal truth is a good thing), then I agree.

There is no situation where being an asshole is necessary. Truth can be delivered, even in a blunt and straight forward fashion, without being an asshole. That truth is also much more effectively delivered when done so with tact.

The only reason anyone has for ever being an asshole to someone else is because of the enjoyment they get from it. By all means, be an asshole as it pleases you, but don't pretend you're doing anyone a favor.

Paradox · **11-18-2015, 10:42 PM**

Quote:I do not like writing romance rp 95% of the time. The remaining 5% I write with players I know and trust. What you are telling me is that I should spend time and effort with people looking for romance rp just because there is a very slim chance I might find something worthwhile, when I am happiest looking for the kind of rp that I feel like rping.

And that's not what I'm seeing in the argument. What I'm seeing is that it's fine to Rp with what you like and feel comfortable with, but don't necessarily judge or be harsh against the players of the characters because they have an idea or style you may or may not like. 'Well they're playing this, so they must be x kind of roleplayer' or 'well this is obviously not 100% in line with what the community says is right, so therefore they're bad'. There are those who see someone playing something they don't like in a character or story, and it's fine not to play with them if that is your choice. However, there are others who are unnecessarily judgmental of that player *as* a roleplayer because they may play controversial things or things a group of people may not agree with, that is carried over against that player even when they have a character of a different sort or type.

Stigma from close-mindedness of an idea can hang on to a player if another player or small clique of well known players expresses negativity against their idea, even in their other characters because a few people are so rigidly against something, then refer to them as 'bad roleplayers' or 'snowflakes' or some other derogatory label. The ideal of keeping an open mind is that just because someone is playing something you may not agree with, it doesn't mean they're bad, or even that their idea is bad, and it shouldn't be treated as such nor should they or their character concept be rejected outright just because one group of outspoken judgmental individuals says so.

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Why You Should Keep an Open Mind and Not Judge Other Roleplayers in Most Cases

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