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Nodem · **11-20-2015, 09:48 PM**

I only skimmed this thread but I was finishing up a quest line that other day and came across this gem.

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Kind of makes sense with Whoresons, meaning a son of a whore, being used. I've also seen "Bitch" used a few times but I've seem to have lost the screenshot of it. It made me personally laugh when I saw it the first time...

As for profanity in RP... Aoi currently doesn't get the usage of curse words when used as a curse word. If you said, "We're to go fuck." She'd get that but not the other forms of it. IE: "Fucking Hell." But it doesn't bother me as the person on the other side of the screen is trying to portray a rough character possibly. Or maybe they grew up with sailors. Who knows really besides them? It doesn't really affect my RP if they are cussing like a sailor and it fits the theme of them more then likely.

The theme of world? Maybe, maybe not. I haven't seen "Fuck" personally yet but then again... Eorzeans do have rough lives so it's always plausible, even if we, the players, haven't seen text for it yet.

***Nero*** · **11-20-2015, 11:00 PM**

(11-20-2015, 09:06 PM)Oli! Wrote:
(11-20-2015, 08:55 PM)Nero Wrote: Using modern swears in what is ostensibly a high fantasy setting is, to me, as wildly out of place as speaking early modern English in Star Wars. It's not that I mind profanity--anyone who's spoken to me on voice is probably aware that I swear more than most--but it's anachronistic and immersion breaking to me.

I'm certain that there are at least a few reasons with which to justify the usage, but it feels wrong and jarring to me.

I think we've already established that age is not the issue, considering that "modern" swear words have been around just as long as most of the rest of the language.

Personal Flavoring may be an issue, but age is not.

That is incredibly debatable as there is a marked difference between when a word was first used and when it can be said to have entered common parlance with a relatively consistent definition. It is one thing to say that "fuck" was first used in the 14th century, and another thing entirely to say that its usage could be considered as a common swear in the same time period.

"Fuck", to use it as an example, was commonly used to inappropriately refer to fornication from its inception. Its status as a "swear"--as an insulting word or adjective meant to offend or as an extreme expression--wasn't common until the mid-nineteenth century, so it can certainly be called anachronistic from certain points of view.

But I digress. To briefly reiterate on the topic, whether or not people use such swears is up to them, but I personally will never see appropriate reason or circumstance for myself to use language that feels markedly out of place.

Lydia Lightfoot · **11-20-2015, 11:53 PM**

Admitting up front that I haven't read beyond the first couple posts.

My comment:Â

Unfortunately, film and television use swearing as go-to methods of trying to show you which character is the "ruffian bad-boy type". Nobody's surprised with Captain Fuckly McShitbitch beats somebody up, because we were all expecting it. We all gasp when the chaste-tongued Englishman surprises us by also clobbering some bad guys in the same fashion, because we thought he was a bigtime nerd since he doesn't run around yelling "Crap a cock ya cunts!" or whatever.

A lot of people also don't really care much to pay attention to NPC dialogue and try to ensure that their character uses a "voice" which feels fitting. A great example of this is metrics - for every player I've seen whose character says ilm, fulm, onze, etc, there's several others who are running around talking about inches and ounces. Is it expressing the same thing? Sure. Does it step on immersion a little? It does if you're one of the ones who cares. To the droves of roleplayers who are saying inches and ounces, it doesn't matter to them even a little bit.

I tend to figure that players who seem to avoid making an effort (notice I said effort, not perfection) to fit the "feel" of the setting are probably playing characters whose inner depth is as careless as what they're portraying on the surface. The player will probably be telling stories that are very much The Real World, and not really Eorzea. That doesn't mean they're a bad player necessarily, they could just be new and maybe they have a hard time separating their thoughts as a player from those of a character, and their perspective on reality from that of the character's.

Oli! · **11-21-2015, 12:28 AM**

(11-20-2015, 11:00 PM)Nero Wrote:
(11-20-2015, 09:06 PM)Oli! Wrote:
(11-20-2015, 08:55 PM)Nero Wrote: Using modern swears in what is ostensibly a high fantasy setting is, to me, as wildly out of place as speaking early modern English in Star Wars. It's not that I mind profanity--anyone who's spoken to me on voice is probably aware that I swear more than most--but it's anachronistic and immersion breaking to me.

I'm certain that there are at least a few reasons with which to justify the usage, but it feels wrong and jarring to me.

I think we've already established that age is not the issue, considering that "modern" swear words have been around just as long as most of the rest of the language.

Personal Flavoring may be an issue, but age is not.

That is incredibly debatable as there is a marked difference between when a word was first used and when it can be said to have entered common parlance with a relatively consistent definition. It is one thing to say that "fuck" was first used in the 14th century, and another thing entirely to say that its usage could be considered as a common swear in the same time period.

"Fuck", to use it as an example, was commonly used to inappropriately refer to fornication from its inception. Its status as a "swear"--as an insulting word or adjective meant to offend or as an extreme expression--wasn't common until the mid-nineteenth century, so it can certainly be called anachronistic from certain points of view.

But I digress. To briefly reiterate on the topic, whether or not people use such swears is up to them, but I personally will never see appropriate reason or circumstance for myself to use language that feels markedly out of place.

The sources that I have presented seem to suggest a different viewpoint from the idea that you have presented. If you have opposing citations, I think it would be in the interest of everyone here to take a look, since it's relevant to the topic.

Yes, the word "Fuck" was normally used to refer to various aspects of sex, which is identical to its usage today, save for its use as an interjection, exclamation, and intensifier. As a result, I have presented evidence that points to its use in such contexts from very early on; even its other usage, that of an Intensifier, was used as it is today in the 1500s as I presented somewhere else in this thread. Additionally, its use in the phrase "I don't give a fuck" took place in the 18th century, as did the its use to mean "damaged beyond repair." Considering its demeaning use in 1310, its various derivatives within Slang and Its Analogues, and its use as an intensifier, it seems safe to say that this was indeed a swear-word, or at least not high-brow language.

From what we have gathered, therefore, it seems quite clear that the word was used in many of its modern contexts early on in history; regardless of whether or not you consider it to be a Swear, within the context of History, it is indeed appropriate for use. Whether or not it qualifies as a swearword is an entirely different and perhaps more complex argument, but is nonetheless irrelevant regarding its various historical usages, and their correlation to the rough time-period in which we would consider Final Fantasy to be set.

In short, regardless of whether or not you consider the word Fuck to be a swear word in the offered historical contexts, the age of those quotes still give the word viable historical pretext to be used in Roleplay, given the age of the word and most of its usages. We may therefore conclude that the use of the word in these contexts has historical backing, which renders an objection on the grounds of the word and its meanings being "Modern" improper.

Valence · **11-21-2015, 12:04 PM**

On the subject of ilms, fulms, and all other confusing Eorzean metrics, do we have a list of them, and what they amount to exactly?Â

Because well, since i'm born in the SI metric system, I find them as confusing as inches, feet and all other royal related measurement units...

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **11-21-2015, 12:30 PM**

(11-21-2015, 12:04 PM)Valence Wrote: On the subject of ilms, fulms, and all other confusing Eorzean metrics, do we have a list of them, and what they amount to exactly?Â

Because well, since i'm born in the SI metric system, I find them as confusing as inches, feet and all other royal related measurement units...

You'll find these threads handy.

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread....#pid210392

http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=454

I believe there's more discussion on the actual units over on the Official Forums, Lore Board, however.

TheLastCandle · **11-21-2015, 01:36 PM**

Hmm. I just find it tacky, so I don't have any of my characters do it myself. The Eorzean curses given by various NPCs throughout the course of the game are more fun. Tongue

I also tend to judge characters' intelligence by how frequently they use the word 'fuck.' Sorry in advance, but I do, without even meaning to. The funny thing about it is IRL, among friends, I swear like a sailor.

Lyse Falen · **11-21-2015, 05:21 PM**

(11-21-2015, 01:36 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: Hmm. I just find it tacky, so I don't have any of my characters do it myself. The Eorzean curses given by various NPCs throughout the course of the game are more fun.

I also tend to judge characters' intelligence by how frequently they use the word 'fuck.' Sorry in advance, but I do, without even meaning to. The funny thing about it is IRL, among friends, I swear like a sailor.

Not sure how I feel about the idea that if you curse you're ignorant is, as it does come up in my roleplay often enough and my personal life, but moving on from that little bit...

Linguistics are surprisingly interesting, especially in a world that has no defined history in that respect.Â There is no timeline really to base Eorzea on because it doesn't exist in reality, it's a creative world made up by the people who exist in it and it's framework which is created by people outside, who often don't think about the depth of roleplay that can happen.

While it's fine to say you don't enjoy it in the RP you participate in, to say it doesn't belong is like telling someone that they're playing make-believe wrong.Â We define the nature of language in this world in whatever we see fits our RP, yeah?Â So it has a place if someone chooses it has a place, I suppose.

TheLastCandle · **11-21-2015, 07:17 PM**

(11-21-2015, 05:21 PM)Lyse Crofte Wrote: Not sure how I feel about the idea that if you curse you're ignorant is, as it does come up in my roleplay often enough and my personal life, but moving on from that little bit...

Linguistics are surprisingly interesting, especially in a world that has no defined history in that respect. There is no timeline really to base Eorzea on because it doesn't exist in reality, it's a creative world made up by the people who exist in it and it's framework which is created by people outside, who often don't think about the depth of roleplay that can happen.

While it's fine to say you don't enjoy it in the RP you participate in, to say it doesn't belong is like telling someone that they're playing make-believe wrong. We define the nature of language in this world in whatever we see fits our RP, yeah? So it has a place if someone chooses it has a place, I suppose.

Well, I never said "if you curse you're ignorant." As I said, among familiar company, I swear an absolute fuckton. (Ha.) But I'm also acutely aware of the "low-class crass" trope. More often than not, if every other word that comes out of a character's mouth is "fuck," they probably fit that description. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and I've found that it's usually the player's intention in the first place. I simply think that the game has given us a number of colorful alternatives as well as more general templates for everyday Eorzean speech, and I find it far more immersive to actually use those.

Obviously, I don't go around telling people how to roleplay, or shun everyone who feels differently - ask Virella or Meyla, as I've RPed with them on several occasions, and they both have characters who use "fuck" as if they were in a Tarantino film.

Virella · **11-21-2015, 07:21 PM**

(11-21-2015, 07:17 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: Well, I never said "if you curse you're ignorant." As I said, among familiar company, I swear an absolute fuckton. (Ha.) But I'm also acutely aware of the "low-class crass" trope. More often than not, if every other word that comes out of a character's mouth is "fuck," they probably fit that description. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and I've found that it's usually the player's intention in the first place. I simply think that the game has given us a number of colorful alternatives as well as templates for everyday Eorzean speech, and I find it far more immersive to use those.

Obviously, I don't go around telling people how to roleplay - ask Virella or Meyla, Â as I've RPed with them on several occasions, and they both have characters who use "fuck" as if they were in a Tarantino film.

Ave uses swive as well Sad

But yeah, Ave drops the f-bombs 24/7, and worse. Never had anyone bring up issues with it though. In truth, I do feel Ala Mhigan characters get away with it easier though, seeming well, eh, the crudeness sort of fits them. Virella on the other hand doesn't curse at all.

There's a time and place for having characters curse, and it massively depends onto what type of character you roleplay as well.

Lyse Falen · **11-21-2015, 08:52 PM**

(11-21-2015, 07:17 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote:
(11-21-2015, 05:21 PM)Lyse Crofte Wrote: Not sure how I feel about the idea that if you curse you're ignorant is, as it does come up in my roleplay often enough and my personal life, but moving on from that little bit...

Linguistics are surprisingly interesting, especially in a world that has no defined history in that respect. Â There is no timeline really to base Eorzea on because it doesn't exist in reality, it's a creative world made up by the people who exist in it and it's framework which is created by people outside, who often don't think about the depth of roleplay that can happen.

While it's fine to say you don't enjoy it in the RP you participate in, to say it doesn't belong is like telling someone that they're playing make-believe wrong. Â We define the nature of language in this world in whatever we see fits our RP, yeah? Â So it has a place if someone chooses it has a place, I suppose.

Well, I never said "if you curse you're ignorant." As I said, among familiar company, I swear an absolute fuckton. (Ha.) But I'm also acutely aware of the "low-class crass" trope. More often than not, if every other word that comes out of a character's mouth is "fuck," they probably fit that description. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and I've found that it's usually the player's intention in the first place. I simply think that the game has given us a number of colorful alternatives as well as more general templates for everyday Eorzean speech, and I find it far more immersive to actually use those.

Obviously, I don't go around telling people how to roleplay, or shun everyone who feels differently - ask Virella or Meyla, Â as I've RPed with them on several occasions, and they both have characters who use "fuck" as if they were in a Tarantino film.

No worries, I didn't think it was a personal attack, it's just a weird thing to do by default to characters who curse, that's all.Â You gotta do you in the end. <3

LiadansWhisper · **11-22-2015, 12:12 AM**

(11-21-2015, 05:21 PM)Lyse Crofte Wrote: While it's fine to say you don't enjoy it in the RP you participate in, to say it doesn't belong is like telling someone that they're playing make-believe wrong.Â We define the nature of language in this world in whatever we see fits our RP, yeah?Â So it has a place if someone chooses it has a place, I suppose.

So, I've gone and I've read...and re-read...what TheLastCandle posted, and the funny thing is...I can't seem to find anywhere in the post where he said, "it doesn't belong." He said he personally finds it tacky (which is totally cool - peeps are entitled to their opinion). He said that he finds the way NPCs string together cuss words (real or make-believe) to be more interesting (which, again, is totally cool - peeps are entitled to their opinion). And he said that he subconsciously judges a character's intelligence by how much they're dropping the f-bomb (again - peeps be entitled to their opinion), which he finds kind of ironic and maybe hypocritcal considering his propensity to cuss like the scurviest pirate when he's among friends.

But you know what's not in his post? Any suggestion that cussing doesn't belong, and any suggestion that he (TheLastCandle) has any right to tell anyone else how to play their character.

Crazy, I know.

(11-21-2015, 08:52 PM)Lyse Crofte Wrote: No worries, I didn't think it was a personal attack, it's just a weird thing to do by default to characters who curse, that's all.Â You gotta do you in the end. <3

What's a weird thing? To have an opinion about characters? Because, I hate to tell you, but opinions are like assholes, and everyone has one about everyone else's characters, and the players behind them. All the time. Every time. Because we're opinionated shits.

I guess I'm just not getting why you jumped on TheLastCandle for something he never said. Dodgy

Lyse Falen · **11-22-2015, 12:34 AM**

(11-22-2015, 12:12 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(11-21-2015, 05:21 PM)Lyse Crofte Wrote: While it's fine to say you don't enjoy it in the RP you participate in, to say it doesn't belong is like telling someone that they're playing make-believe wrong.Â We define the nature of language in this world in whatever we see fits our RP, yeah?Â So it has a place if someone chooses it has a place, I suppose.

So, I've gone and I've read...and re-read...what TheLastCandle posted, and the funny thing is...I can't seem to find anywhere in the post where he said, "it doesn't belong." Â He said he personally finds it tacky (which is totally cool - peeps are entitled to their opinion). Â He said that he finds the way NPCs string together cuss words (real or make-believe) to be more interesting (which, again, is totally cool - peeps are entitled to their opinion). Â And he said that he subconsciously judges a character's intelligence by how much they're dropping the f-bomb (again - peeps be entitled to their opinion), which he finds kind of ironic and maybe hypocritcal considering his propensity to cuss like the scurviest pirate when he's among friends.

But you know what's not in his post? Â Any suggestion that cussing doesn't belong, and any suggestion that he (TheLastCandle) has any right to tell anyone else how to play their character.

Crazy, I know.

(11-21-2015, 08:52 PM)Lyse Crofte Wrote: No worries, I didn't think it was a personal attack, it's just a weird thing to do by default to characters who curse, that's all.Â You gotta do you in the end. <3

What's a weird thing? Â To have an opinion about characters? Â Because, I hate to tell you, but opinions are like assholes, and everyone has one about everyone else's characters, and the players behind them. Â All the time. Â Every time. Â Because we're opinionated shits.

I guess I'm just not getting why you jumped on TheLastCandle for something he never said. Â

I didn't jump him that was to the thread in general in which people have repeatedly said it didn't belong? Or that they felt it didn't belong, and the thing about the opinion is that's fine, have it, but the statement of judging a character's intelligence based on how much they curse is silly -- strangely enough, and this is apparently one of those things that you want to beat into my head so I'll just refer you back to your comment on opinions.

You can have one, and someone's can differ, and they're allowed to say so. Smile

That being said, the only one I think being jumped on here is me, by you.Â This post felt aggressive; I meant no aggression towards TheLastCandle and I more or less told him I didn't think he was being an ass and I wasn't at all trying to be an ass to him, but... that's the internet for you, hard to understand tone through text.

And if you'll reread the part you quoted I did say 'you gotta do you' which means I understand opinions but you feel free to come with a vengeance again, I really don't mind, opinionated people are neat.

ETA: My post saying: Not sure how I feel about the idea that if you curse you're ignorant is, as it does come up in my roleplay often enough and my personal life, but moving on from that little bit...

The bold is where I moved on from addressing that specific point and to the topic at hand, for clarification. Smile

LiadansWhisper · **11-22-2015, 12:44 AM**

(11-22-2015, 12:34 AM)Lyse Crofte Wrote: I didn't jump him that was to the thread in general in which people have repeatedly said it didn't belong? Or that they felt it didn't belong, and the thing about the opinion is that's fine, have it, but the statement of judging a character's intelligence based on how much they curse is silly -- strangely enough, and this is apparently one of those things that you want to beat into my head so I'll just refer you back to your comment on opinions.

You can have one, and someone's can differ, and they're allowed to say so.

Sure. You just didn't make it clear at all that you were addressing the general thread and not TheLastCandle with regards to the "it didn't belong" line. In fact, you quoted him, which really rather made it appear that it was directed at him. When he pointed out that, hey, he actually didn't do that at all, you didn't even correct him to say, "Hey that's not what I meant." Instead you said, "it's just a weird thing to do by default to characters who curse, that's all. You gotta do you in the end." Which, I mean, maybe I'm just crazy, but it still sounds like - in the context of the conversation that was going on - you were still claiming that he said it "doesn't belong." Except he didn't.

This is why I was confused. Thank you so much for clarifying on that.

Quote:That being said, the only one I think being jumped on here is me, by you.Â This post felt aggressive; I meant no aggression towards TheLastCandle and I more or less told him I didn't think he was being an ass and I wasn't at all trying to be an ass to him, but... that's the internet for you, hard to understand tone through text.

If by "jumped on," you mean I'm pointing out that you accused someone of telling other people how to RP and said their RP "didn't belong," you're right! I am, in fact, pointing out that TheLastCandle never actually said what you accused him of saying, and wondering why you would even say he was. You've responding saying you didn't actually mean that (though you waited until I said something to actually provide that essential clarification), so hey thanks - that's solved.

Quote:feel free to come with a vengeance again,

That wasn't this, and I like Osric too much to pull that on days ending in y. Most of the time.

Quote:ETA: My post saying: Not sure how I feel about the idea that if you curse you're ignorant is, as it does come up in my roleplay often enough and my personal life, [b]but moving on from that little bit...

This goes back to people being judgmental shits. The human brain is wired to make snap judgments just like this, all the time, every day. It's how we're wired. Over time, we can recognize when we're making ridiculous judgments (kinda like when TheLastCandle said that he found his snap judgments a bit silly considering his own real life behavior), but the brain still kicks in and makes those snap judgments initially.

Lyse Falen · **11-22-2015, 12:58 AM**

(11-22-2015, 12:44 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(11-22-2015, 12:34 AM)Lyse Crofte Wrote: I didn't jump him that was to the thread in general in which people have repeatedly said it didn't belong? Or that they felt it didn't belong, and the thing about the opinion is that's fine, have it, but the statement of judging a character's intelligence based on how much they curse is silly -- strangely enough, and this is apparently one of those things that you want to beat into my head so I'll just refer you back to your comment on opinions.

You can have one, and someone's can differ, and they're allowed to say so.

Sure. Â You just didn't make it clear at all that you were addressing the general thread and not TheLastCandle with regards to the "it didn't belong" line. Â In fact, you quoted him, which really rather made it appear that it was directed at him. Â When he pointed out that, hey, he actually didn't do that at all, you didn't even correct him to say, "Hey that's not what I meant." Â Instead you said, "it's just a weird thing to do by default to characters who curse, that's all. Â You gotta do you in the end." Â Which, I mean, maybe I'm just crazy, but it still sounds like - in the context of the conversation that was going on - you were still claiming that he said it "doesn't belong." Â Except he didn't.

This is why I was confused. Â Thank you so much for clarifying on that.

Quote:That being said, the only one I think being jumped on here is me, by you.Â This post felt aggressive; I meant no aggression towards TheLastCandle and I more or less told him I didn't think he was being an ass and I wasn't at all trying to be an ass to him, but... that's the internet for you, hard to understand tone through text.

If by "jumped on," you mean I'm pointing out that you accused someone of telling other people how to RP and said their RP "didn't belong," you're right! Â I am, in fact, pointing out that TheLastCandle never actually said what you accused him of saying, and wondering why you would even say he was. Â You've responding saying you didn't actually mean that (though you waited until I said something to actually provide that essential clarification), so hey thanks - that's solved.

Quote:feel free to come with a vengeance again,

That wasn't this, and I like Osric too much to pull that on days ending in y. Â Most of the time.

Quote:ETA: Â My post saying: Not sure how I feel about the idea that if you curse you're ignorant is, as it does come up in my roleplay often enough and my personal life, but moving on from that little bit...

This goes back to people being judgmental shits. Â The human brain is wired to make snap judgments just like this, all the time, every day. Â It's how we're wired. Â Over time, we can recognize when we're making ridiculous judgments (kinda like when TheLastCandle said that he found his snap judgments a bit silly considering his own real life behavior), but the brain still kicks in and makes those snap judgments initially.

I didn't provide clarification because he didn't ask.Â I figured he understood.Â You were the one to come and say you saw it another way so then I clarified to you.Â Much like he explained himself when I commented on his thread questioning it.Â That's how discussions tend to work.Â But I think we've resolved this as much as it will be so I'll move back onto topic and just regurgitate what I said previously, or rather refer people back to it. That's my stance and people can disagree, I'm cool with that, that was the point I Think.

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[NSFW] RP Discussion: Bad words said IC, for it or against it?

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