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Kellach Woods · **12-14-2015, 07:47 PM**

(12-14-2015, 07:46 PM)Yssen Wrote: The OP asked "Is it really impossible to RP if I want my character to become a White Mage?" There is no absolute answer to this from a lore perspective, and the only way to judge the idea's merit is based on the story and RP they come up with. Yar.

The answer to that is "no it is not impossible".

The ambiguity is in the details.

Yssen · **12-14-2015, 08:45 PM**

(12-14-2015, 07:47 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(12-14-2015, 07:46 PM)Yssen Wrote: The OP asked "Is it really impossible to RP if I want my character to become a White Mage?" There is no absolute answer to this from a lore perspective, and the only way to judge the idea's merit is based on the story and RP they come up with. Yar.
The answer to that is "no it is not impossible".

The ambiguity is in the details.

Your opinion is that it is not. Your reasonable speculation of lore says that it is not. This is all fine, but that is not gospel. It is just your opinion.

Kellach Woods · **12-14-2015, 08:59 PM**

Let's up the pedantry because it just ain't up there yet.

So long as there is possibility, it is therefore not impossible.

***Nero*** · **12-14-2015, 09:13 PM**

Please try to keep replies relevant to the topic. Discussions addressing the nature of opinion and the acceptability of lore bending/breaking should be taken off-site or to an appropriate thread.

Yssen · **12-14-2015, 11:14 PM**

(12-14-2015, 09:13 PM)wNero Wrote: Please try to keep replies relevant to the topic. Posts and discussions addressing the nature of opinion and the alleged subjectivity lore bending/breaking should be taken off-site or to Â an appropriate thread.

Then how are we to answer the question posed at all?

***Nero*** · **12-14-2015, 11:29 PM**

(12-14-2015, 11:14 PM)Yssen Wrote:
(12-14-2015, 09:13 PM)wNero Wrote: Please try to keep replies relevant to the topic. Posts and discussions addressing the nature of opinion and the alleged subjectivity lore bending/breaking should be taken off-site or to Â an appropriate thread.
Then how are we to answer the question posed at all?

My mistake. I meant to only write "discussions". Offering an opinion that utilizes the above that also gives feedback to the OP's question is fine. Debating about the aforementioned nature of opinion and alleged subjectivity of lore bending, while tangentially related, should be taken to a different topic, to PMs, or offsite..

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **12-14-2015, 11:36 PM**

(12-14-2015, 11:14 PM)Yssen Wrote:
(12-14-2015, 09:13 PM)Nero Wrote: Please try to keep replies relevant to the topic. Posts and discussions addressing the nature of opinion and the alleged subjectivity lore bending/breaking should be taken off-site or to Â an appropriate thread.
Then how are we to answer the question posed at all?

I'd argue that the topic was like answered by the time that last two pages of banter happened.

This isn't a thread about whether or not lore-bending is acceptable. It was whether or not it's possible for someone to RP a white mage, specifically, the original poster's character. (Which really, a character workshop thread should be used for that, as this section's for discussing roleplay, roleplaying styles, and roleplaying concepts. How to RP a WHM? Come here. Single for a character, Workshop).

But to post something that's on-topic, it's clearly been shown that OP can RP a White Mage if she'd like. This could limit the people she RPs with, as some people will pre-judge. Others may simply roll with it. It's clearly not impossible because she could be playing as a/the Warrior of Light, or as someone who became a White Mage through other means, whether nefarious or exceedingly rare. Or perhaps the thread's shown that some people (I'd probably be included) have an aversion to people openly stating they roleplay as White Mages because the game presents becoming a WHM as a very special only-you-the-single-player-can-do-this type of thing, as opposed to say, becoming a Paladin, Monk, Bard, or Warrior. (Perhaps Ninja is too, but I haven't played it and can't speak on it). Certain in-game jobs are more restricted than others.

Vyce · **12-15-2015, 12:18 AM**

The moral of this story is, becoming a WHM isnt impossible, but you better have a damn good reason to have that power. Don't do something just because you want to.

Some of the points in the last two pages are ridiculous. Here's an example of concrete lore.

You cannot know of the fate of Louisoux.Â

Why?

Alisae and friends sealed the Coils after finding out and are the only beings who know. Not even Minfilia knows.

Mentioning the fate of Louisoix in RP is impossible because we have concrete lore stating your character does not have that information.
It is spelled out.

Willful Ignorance here would be ignoring the sources and facts to continue RPing that you know of his fate.

Whether Eorzeans take a dump has nothing to do with Willful Ignorance because there are no facts present either way and I have no idea why it was brought up. It only counta for things that we know to be true.

You cannot be granted Succor by the Elementals because you are not Padjali. Doing so is willfully ignorant.

It is however not willfully ignorant to play a Padjal if we do not know their exact numbers. It is not impossible if there is not a solid fact. It is just frowned upon.

Other examples:

If the lore says there are two Goblins in the world and both are male, you cannot play a Goblin. Doing so would be willffully ignorant.

Lore does not say there are no Doman Lalafell, but there are no Doman Lalafell NPCs. It is therefor not willfully ignorant to play a Doman Lalafell, but it is frowned upon due to general concensus that Lalas may not have settled there.

LiadansWhisper · **12-15-2015, 12:26 AM**

(12-15-2015, 12:18 AM)Vyce Wrote: You cannot be granted Succor by the Elementals because you are not Padjali. Doing so is willfully ignorant.

That's not really accurate.

We know that the Warrior of Light was granted Succor by the Elementals. And the Warrior of Light isn't Padjal.

We also know that many characters from 1.0 received the blessing of Succor from the Elementals, and none of them were Padjal, either.

While it is true that in the Main Story Quest, the only non-Padjal that we know of that's granted Succor is the Warrior of Light, that in no way means that the Elementals cannot grant Succor to someone else. It's possible that we simply don't know about it (remember, for the most part, the main story quest follows our point of view, and we are not omniscient).

It would not, in my opinion, be "willfully ignorant" to explain a character's access to Succor by saying that they have trained under the Padjal and received the blessing of the Elementals to do their work. The issue with that backstory isn't ignorance, it's explaining why that particular character was allowed when others have been refused.

Caspar · **12-15-2015, 01:35 AM**

Bottom line seems to be, if you can sell it, it'll work. It depends as much upon the audience as it does upon the player. There are enough grey areas, particularly involving the Soul Crystal and training under Padjali, that among some people it would be accepted, as much so as there are people under which it would not be accepted.

Another thing to consider is the commonality of uniqueness. Think about the scope of your play. If you feel you want to play with a large number of players and not just a small, intimate group, consider the possibility that there might be many more with the same "special" origin, and consider whether you'd personally be comfortable with it. True, the forum tends to frown on "special" origins, but it bears consideration that you won't necessarily be playing with every single member of the server who plays make believe. It's been mentioned before that if you play with a small, intimate group, it's not too hard to tailor the suspension of disbelief to a level that makes everyone involved happy. Maybe a smaller team will accept the Padjali tutoring with the idea that only they know your character's secret, and to everyone else, you appear a talented Conjurer. If there were fourteen WHM hiding with the same origin, and it was known to the general RPing public even if the NPC population was assumed to not know, some players would feel it erodes at the believability of the concept.

I don't really have much of a stake in the WHM discussion, other than to say generally I'm for things that expand the lore rather than shrink it, and I think what is generally frowned upon on the RPC is not necessarily universal for the larger RP community. I think the topic is a great barometer to gauge the receptiveness of specific players or the forum as a whole though, even if there's a lot of speaking for "the community at large" that I wouldn't take at face value.

Speaking of which... (Spoilered for slightly off topic)

Show Content

Verilys · **12-15-2015, 01:36 AM**

To be honest, the only 'concrete lore' that we know about White Mages are that Padjal are more like Padjackasses. :<

LiadansWhisper · **12-15-2015, 01:52 AM**

(12-15-2015, 01:36 AM)Verilys Wrote: To be honest, the only 'concrete lore' that we know about White Mages are that Padjal are more like Padjackasses. :<

That's not really concrete, either? Padjal are individuals, just like anyone else.

V'aleera · **12-15-2015, 02:00 AM**

(12-15-2015, 12:18 AM)Vyce Wrote: You cannot be granted Succor by the Elementals because you are not Padjali. Doing so is willfully ignorant.

The Elementals do not grant Succor. They can't grant Succor because they do not and can not control it. They can teach it though. It's somewhat unclear whether or not they were the ones to create it, or simply the first to use it, but the narrative of the Sixth Umbral Era and the abuse of Succor by the White Mages of Amdapor pretty convincingly suggests that the only way Elementals can "control" Succor is by killing anyone who uses it without their permission.

This is why the White is kept secret and why the Padjal are so loathe to bring an outsider into the fold: once the knowledge of Succor goes beyond the ability of the Elementals and the Padjal to keep it suppressed they are no longer able to control its use.

This is also why the Elementals attempted to completely hide away the existence of Amdapor; the secrets of White Magic likely remain buried in the ruins of the dead nation, waiting to be found.

(12-15-2015, 01:52 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: That's not really concrete, either? Padjal are individuals, just like anyone else.

I think it's important to recognize that the Padjal are individuals, and as an organization they are not terribly monolithic (or at least don't appear to be). They all clearly have their own ways of doing things, and sometimes they don't agree on the best solution.

Sounsyy · **12-15-2015, 02:06 AM**

(12-14-2015, 10:47 AM)Oli! Wrote: Additionally, before you're given any of these Soulstones in the first place, you're already accomplished in the foundations of what makes those jobs possible, to the point of maybe even being the best at it in certain cases.

If this is indeed the case, then it wouldn't be possible to gain control of Succor simply by gaining a Soulstone, you would still have to go to the source.

Taken from WHM quest transcripts:

Raya-O-Senna Wrote:Now, these misbehaving elementals would have long been pacified, but for the fact that most incidents transpire outside the Twelveswood. I am duty-bound to the forest, you see, and cannot attend to the matter, while Stillglade Fane has not the manpower to spare at present for an undertaking beyond our borders.

But you, Sounsyyâ”€you may do what we Gridanians cannot. So I bid you journey forth to quell the keening of the elementals throughout Eorzea. And, as you act in my name, I hereby permit you the use of white magic. *Raya-O reaches out her hand here and Player Character begins to glow!

Take here this linkpearl and the Soul of the White Mage. The latter is an ancient crystal imbued with the light of succorâ”€by its power, the forbidden art will be yours to wield, albeit within the bounds of your skill as a conjurer.

To walk the path of the white mage is to devote oneself to the salving of hurts and the lifting of miseryâ”€ours is the hand that proffers comfort. Should it ever come to light that you have used your powers contrary to this, be forewarned that you will promptly be dispossessed of the crystal and duly punished.

*The reason I added this is that Raya-O apparently unlocks my ability to wield Succor before ever handing me the soulcrystal in the next text box.

_____________________

(12-15-2015, 12:18 AM)Vyce Wrote: You cannot be granted Succor by the Elementals because you are not Padjali. Doing so is willfully ignorant.

Raya-O-Senna Wrote:In order to save Eorzea, we must avail ourselves of greater powerâ”€-we must avail ourselves of the garb of succor, the legendary artifacts worn by the white mages of old. Ancient chronicles hold that the garb is imbued with the light of succor, and is bestowed only upon those deemed true servants of the forest. The garb comprises five artifacts, each of which heightens the wearer's affinity with the elementals. There exist accounts of white mages who successfully entreated elementals to render their essence unto the garb as a show of ultimate favor.

Oha-Sok Wrote:Thine is a heart that brimmeth with compassionâ”€a compassion that knoweth not fear, and favoreth not friend o'er foe. It is to that compassion that my kindred and I shall trust. Of their own free will, they would fain give themselves unto thy garb of succor. Thy hopes and dreams, they take to be their own.

Ingram Wrote:I confess, at first I was opposed to allowing adventurers into the Conjurers' Guild. But we have come to realize that many of your ilk are sought out and summoned by the elementals.

Ingram Wrote:Then it seems you have learned of Brother Morys's secret. Yes, Brother Morys was indeed a wildling. Very few of the conjurers are privy to this. Those who do know have been forbidden to speak of it.

Once claimed by the wood, one undergoes certain...changes. Wildlings have great potential to become powerful, powerful conjurers. If knowledge of this fact were to become widespread, we fear many would allow themselves to be turned out of lust for power. But once claimed, wildlings can seldom be retrieved from the wood. And that is why you, too, must protect this secret, Sounsyy. Believe me, I would not ordinarily have asked you to bear such a burden. <sigh> If only I knew what the elementals were planning!

_____________________

(12-15-2015, 12:18 AM)Vyce Wrote: Lore does not say there are no Doman Lalafell, but there are no Doman Lalafell NPCs. It is therefor not willfully ignorant to play a Doman Lalafell, but it is frowned upon due to general concensus that Lalas may not have settled there.

Dark Sleeper Wrote:A small freshwater fish originally from the eastern continent of Othard. It is said that the first dark sleeper was introduced to Eorzea by an exiled Lalafellin prince who wished to once again experience the luxuries of his homeland.

While not specifically Doman, meet Yamimi Farwalker, who is a trader from the Far East. She presents with a traditional Plainsfolk forename, but her last name follows Doman Naming Conventions, reminiscent of other Doman NPCs of note such as Karasu Redbeak and Yugiri Mistwalker.

Yamimi Farwalker Wrote:A thousand pities I couldn't meet Master Haermaga. My customer thought the world of him. Tis for the boy's sake I wrote the good master and made the long journey to Limsa Lominsa... ...In the last moon of his life, the boy asked me about the Far East. He had dreamed of adventuring there, I think, him and Master Haermaga together.

Again... as was posted earlier in this thread, if you're interested in White Mage Lore instead of bickering, please visit the compilation post.

If you continue to post in this thread what lore does and does not say, please first research what lore actually does and does not say. Otherwise, it is you that sounds "willfully ignorant." People will have differing interpretations of the lore, and that is fine, but be able to provide examples that support your counterargument.

Lydia Lightfoot · **12-15-2015, 05:50 AM**

(12-15-2015, 12:18 AM)Vyce Wrote: Some of the points in the last two pages are ridiculous. Here's an example of concrete lore.

You cannot know of the fate of Louisoux.Â

Why?

Alisae and friends sealed the Coils after finding out and are the only beings who know. Not even Minfilia knows.

Mentioning the fate of Louisoix in RP is impossible because we have concrete lore stating your character does not have that information.
It is spelled out.

Willful Ignorance here would be ignoring the sources and facts to continue RPing that you know of his fate.

Whether Eorzeans take a dump has nothing to do with Willful Ignorance because there are no facts present either way and I have no idea why it was brought up. It only counta for things that we know to be true.

Merely for the sake of argument...

Strictly speaking, in the scenario you mentioned, we have concrete lore that The Warrior of Light did not receive information regarding the fate of Louisoux. Most people don't seem to play their character as being The Warrior of Light. As you stated yourself, there are in fact individuals who were involved in that scenario who did know the fate of Louisoux, and simply chose not to tell Minfilia and the Warrior of Light. That isn't a concrete indication that they would not tell anyone ever, so although it's unlikely, it's at least possibleÂ that a character whose background includes some association with one or more of the knowledgeable individuals might've been privy to the knowledge as a result of some personal discussion with them.Â

To which one could claim, "But we can't presume a friendship with an NPC scripted by the developers, and can't assume said NPC would or would not divulge information to anyone who may or may not be their friend", the counterpoint to which is that people do that all the time with shopkeepers, bartenders, town guards, and all manner of other NPCs that exist in the game, and in fact it fosters a more plausible "living world" environment if the potential for our characters to have possible associations with named NPCs exists.

That said, because such a player is not a developer, any answer they might give as to the fate of Louisoux is OOCly speculative and their character might end up proven wrong if further information about the story is revealed in a later release of game content. In that event, the player would have to scramble for a reasonable explanation - did their character lie? Is their character going to claim their NPC friend had lied?

Concrete, while a solid material, is also rather porous, and in the grand scheme of building materials is subject to substantial flexibility and expansion/contraction. That's why sidewalks aren't one continuous expanse of concrete, but are in fact poured with intentional small gaps every few feet, to accommodate the expansion and contraction of the material. The point is, it's not impermeable or unchangeable as a material. Neither is lore. A sharp enough process of thought can find plausible ways around nearly anything.

Regarding the portion in red: Since you chose to call out my comment specifically, I'll address that. There are facts, thank you. Fact: No form of plumbed toilet nor pre-toilet outhouse nor pre-outhouse chamberpots appear to exist in the setting as objects, items, or references by characters. Fact: No manner of related sanitary products, such as bathroom tissue, appear to exist in the setting as objects, items, or references by characters. Fact: No character to my knowledge ever references in any dialogue any manner of related bodily function. There are three possible conclusions that can be made from this:

Option 1: They don't. That's why there's no facilities, materials, or references.Â

Option 2: They do, they just pretty much do it wherever is convenient and nobody's conceived of sanitation. Enjoy your very gross setting and smelly characters. Yay.

Option 3: They do, but developers didn't think anybody would be so focused on the trite minutia of every tiny detail of their setting that anyone would actually drill into it so hard as to question whether or not anybody has digestive functions.

Now, that option 3 there is one of critical importance, because it's the one most likely for us to latch onto. It's simply the most sensible. However, if it's the most sensible answer to an obvious gap in the setting in one area, why doesn't the same logic apply to apparent gaps in the rest of the setting? Isn't that interesting? We're content to assume one thing happens to simply be oversight on the part of developers who didn't take roleplayers to be their top priority when designing a setting, yet we're totally not content to make the same assumption about something like whether or not someone could be a White Mage.

Well, ladies and gentlemen, in all probability it really is just that simple. The developers didn't prioritize roleplayers. They never conceived of the idea that someone would play their character from a perspective other than "I'm the Warrior of Light", and furthermore, never conceived of a need to explain how or why someone could or couldn't be a White Mage. The brainpower to put into that situation simply wasn't relevant or important to the achievement of a playable MMOÂ and, perhaps more vitally, would have been a complete waste of time to contemplate and explain within the game considering the level of depth desired by the average player of said game.

So why have all these constant debates about situations that are really plainly nothing more than omissions on the part of the developers? The lore is going to be imperfect. The lore is going to have gaps. If what someone wants to assume about the game world doesn't agree with what you want to assume about the game world, so what? For all you know, that person has a totally rational explanation for the thing you've decided to grab a pitchfork and torch about, so why not give them the benefit of doubt and actually RP with them and get to know what their perspective is before you run around telling them they're ignorant because they don't interpret a vague situation in precisely the same way that you do? Isn't there enough of that behavior in the real world? Why do we need that in a make-believe one?

/soapboxmode off

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