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LiadansWhisper · **03-12-2016, 09:47 PM**

(03-12-2016, 09:30 PM)Nero Wrote: On a purely narrative level, I'm sure there's something appealing in exploring the theme of "Light Is Not Good", and that tools are no more good or evil than their wielders. I'm not sure the healing capabilities of white magic would be appreciated as "good" if it was used to, say, keep a torture victim alive during interrogation in order to break them, or if a bad guy's conjurer croney managed to keep an explicitly evil boss alive and protected so that said explicitly evil boss can go set orphanages on fire.

Is white magic beneficial? Absolutely. But to whom it is beneficial can change the morality behind its usage radically.

Of course, ignoring all the lore stuff. I'm just talking about narrative context, here.

There are other ways to address this, however, without everyone wanting to weaponize the one beneficial magic in the game when it's been driven home over and over again that this is a really terrible idea and almost destroyed the world once before.

Every heard of the "Tyranny of Good Intentions?" Now there's a narrative avenue no one ever wants to explore.

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals."

C.S. Lewis was a wise man.

(03-12-2016, 09:44 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Actually, Lost City HM - Lost City regular wouldn't yield any knowledge since the closest thing you'll find is Diabolos.

And he's not gonna be happy.

As far as "character surviving IC run of dungeon", we have at least a couple, including this guy *points to avatar* who have expeditions in dungeons and not just the tiny ones - I can understand just saying you did it but doing it with a group also helps on the planning front.

I was under the impression that the two were connected, and you had to deal with one to reach the other. That's why I phrased it the way I did. Smile

Edgar · **03-12-2016, 10:06 PM**

(03-12-2016, 09:30 PM)Nero Wrote:
(03-12-2016, 08:55 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(03-12-2016, 08:49 PM)Mavis Wrote:
(03-12-2016, 08:41 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Just bear in mind that the abilities you see in Lost City HM are lost. Â So to utilize them, you'd probably have to re-discover them. The most likely way to do that would be for your character to survive Lost City...which is a pretty tall order.
Well of course! That is part of the fun. Then again, would it not be considered atleast somewhat raided, for the lack of a better term, by a few hordes of adventurers? Considering that it has been accessible now and all of that. I could imagine that getting in and out would be harder.

In all honesty, I have yet to understand people who want to align White Magic with evil when it's so clearly not designed to do anything more than heal. Â Even weaponizing it appears to be extremely harmful in retrospect, and may very well be what accelerated the War of the Magi's damage of the earth itself. Â There's plenty of other magical schools that are either on the edge of evil, or just outright evil. Â I guess I just don't understand why someone would want to use the one intrinsically good and beneficial school of magic that way when there are much easier, and more sensible schools to access.

On a purely narrative level, I'm sure there's something appealing in exploring the theme of "Light Is Not Good", and that tools are no more good or evil than their wielders. I'm not sure the healing capabilities of white magic would be appreciated as "good" if it was used to, say, keep a torture victim alive during interrogation in order to break them, or if a bad guy's conjurer croney managed to keep an explicitly evil boss alive and protected so that said explicitly evil boss can go set orphanages on fire.

Is white magic beneficial? Absolutely. But to whom it is beneficial can change the morality behind its usage radically.

Of course, ignoring all the lore stuff. I'm just talking about narrative context, here.

I love exploring morality. Narratives that question the natures of good and evil, whether man is inherently responsible for its actions or if the concept they created are, or, my personal favorite: Man is wrong and continues to understand nothing because we cannot comprehend the horrible truth.

"Black and white? Good and evil? Pfft. Such are the names mankind uses to contextualize the creeping madness around it.Â To lend sense to nonsense. To justify the unjustifiable. To bring order to chaos. The world is a massive contorting canvas slathered in shades of grey. There are no extremes. Right and wrong are pliable; defined in the moment, ever-changing. Nothing is consistent. Nothing is absolute.

There is no black, there is no white.

There is only grey."

***Nero*** · **03-12-2016, 11:18 PM**

I am now completely confused, so correct me at any point if I'm misinterpreting anything you are saying.

There are two points you are arguing:

(03-12-2016, 08:55 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: ...I guess I just don't understand why someone would want to use the one intrinsically good and beneficial school of magic that way when there are much easier, and more sensible schools to access.

One: white magic is used for healing and incapable of or ineffective in causing direct harm (or perhaps any harm at all), therefore white magic is inherently good and beneficial. Because white magic is inherently good and beneficial, it cannot (or should not) be used as the "evil power" in a story. Because white magic cannot cause any harm, then narratively-speaking, evil should not use white magic. White magic being used for evil purposes doesn't make sense in a story, and a "good vs. evil" plotline makes more sense with, say, a black mage villain than a white mage villain, because there are other powers (i.e arcanima, thaumaturgy) that are capable of causing direct harm and thus should be used instead.

Counterargument: white magic, while incapable of causing direct harm, is still capable of causing indirect harm. And because it is capable of causing indirect harm, white magic is therefore not inherently good and beneficial (BUT nor is it inherently bad and harmful). And because white magic is not inherently good, then it can be used for evil purposes and still make sense within a storyline. It may not be as directly evil as blowing up hospitals with thaumaturgy, but it is still capable of performing evil acts. See: keeping an unambiguously evil person alive, keeping an innocent person alive to torment them, draining all of the aether in a localized environment (and by extension threatening the indiscriminate wrath of the Elementals).

Also, contradiction with the below point: how can a power that is inherently "good and beneficial" also be capable of destroying the world?

(03-12-2016, 09:47 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: There are other ways to address this, however, without everyone wanting to weaponize the one beneficial magic in the game when it's been driven home over and over again that this is a really terrible idea and almost destroyed the world once before.

Two: using white magic is extremely dangerous as its abuse nearly destroyed the world. Therefore it makes no sense for a villain to use it for evil purposes or attempt to inflict direct harm with it because they risk destroying everything in the process. In addition, if a villain wishes to destroy the world, there are easier methods of doing so involving (insert: Allagans, primals, a particularly stinky cheese, etc.)

Counter: "Evil" is not limited to wanting to inflict direct harm or destroy the world. Inflicting indirect harm, or inflicting any harm in general, can be extrapolated as an evil intention. Therefore, on a purely individual basis, a good person who becomes a white mage and then turns evil for whatever reason is still capable of using their powers with evil intentions. Whether or not they would is irrelevant, what matters is that they are capable of doing so if their inclination exists.

(03-12-2016, 09:47 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Every heard of the "Tyranny of Good Intentions?" Now there's a narrative avenue no one ever wants to explore.

Pretty much unrelated to my above points, but isn't this exactly the kind of thing we're talking about?

Is that not exactly what happened at the end of the Fifth Astral Era? White magic, an "inherently good and beneficial" magic, was used extensively for the sake of man's own gain. This own gain became greed and avarice. Then the Elementals retaliated by flooding the world.

Imagine if you're a white mage in the Fifth Astral Era, and you know your magic drains environmental aether, but you want to cure all of the world's diseases and ailments and rescue all the sick children with your power because you're a good person and that's a good intention. So you use your power. A lot. Unaware (or perhaps fully aware) of the harm it causes to the environment. Then the elementals flood the world and kill you and all of the innocents you were trying to preserve with your good intentions.

ANYWAY this is getting way off topic so I'll stop here, I just want to be sure we understand each other's points.

Kellach Woods · **03-12-2016, 11:32 PM**

Though off topic, keep in mind we know very very little of Gridania since barely anything of relevance happens there, and that goes double for the Elementals.

Warren Castille · **03-13-2016, 01:48 AM**

"Hey, here's a franchise-famous beneficial magic. I WANT TO USE IT TO BE EVIL."

It speaks tomes on the people who see White Magic and reach this conclusion. I won't espouse my feelings on it.

LiadansWhisper · **03-13-2016, 02:32 AM**

Gonna stick all this behind a spoiler tag, as I'm sure half the people here don't want to read it.

Show Content

Kellach Woods · **03-13-2016, 09:51 AM**

(03-13-2016, 01:48 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: "Hey, here's a franchise-famous beneficial magic. I WANT TO USE IT TO BE EVIL."

It speaks tomes on the people who see White Magic and reach this conclusion. I won't espouse my feelings on it.

To be fair, the first hint they gave us as to how PCs could access White Magic was straight up "nefarious means".

LiadansWhisper · **03-13-2016, 12:09 PM**

(03-13-2016, 09:51 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(03-13-2016, 01:48 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: "Hey, here's a franchise-famous beneficial magic. I WANT TO USE IT TO BE EVIL."

It speaks tomes on the people who see White Magic and reach this conclusion. I won't espouse my feelings on it.

To be fair, the first hint they gave us as to how PCs could access White Magic was straight up "nefarious means".

Which could be as simple as, "Defying the Elementals " Which would be nefarious without actually being evil in mature. Fact is, we don't actually know what they meant by the statement and likely won't unless/until they actually explain what they meant (hopefully with lore details).

Zelmanov · **03-13-2016, 03:23 PM**

excuse my ignorance but isn't HOLY white magic that is directly linked to Succor and thus a DIRECT means to harm someone? Its not some DnD spell that spares the good and harms evil on some magical absolute sliding scale of morality, Holy nukes everyone the white mage aims to nuke.

LiadansWhisper · **03-13-2016, 04:25 PM**

(03-13-2016, 03:23 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: excuse my ignorance but isn't HOLY white magic that is directly linked to Succor and thus a DIRECT means to harm someone? Its not some DnD spell that spares the good and harms evil on some magical absolute sliding scale of morality, Holy nukes everyone the white mage aims to nuke.

Yes, but is that a question of game mechanics (in that it's available to WHM players and is harmful) or is it actually an instance where they literally have access to what has traditionally been one of the most powerful spells in a White Mage's arsenal? (This is the only game I've seen where it's treated as a run-of-the-mill spell instead of something on the level of, say, Meteor for a Black Mage.)

The only time we see Holy used in-game, as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong here!), by a "White Mage" is in Lost City of Amdapor HM. And even then, it's "Ancient Holy." We never see the Padjal - who are the only active White Mages beyond the Warrior of Light - even reference Holy. So, to me, that says it's probably a game mechanics thing that we even have the spell on our bars.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **03-13-2016, 04:41 PM**

(03-13-2016, 04:25 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(03-13-2016, 03:23 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: excuse my ignorance but isn't HOLY white magic that is directly linked to Succor and thus a DIRECT means to harm someone? Its not some DnD spell that spares the good and harms evil on some magical absolute sliding scale of morality, Holy nukes everyone the white mage aims to nuke.

Yes, but is that a question of game mechanics (in that it's available to WHM players and is harmful) or is it actually an instance where they literally have access to what has traditionally been one of the most powerful spells in a White Mage's arsenal? Â (This is the only game I've seen where it's treated as a run-of-the-mill spell instead of something on the level of, say, Meteor for a Black Mage.)

The only time we see Holy used in-game, as far as I know (someone correct me if I'm wrong here!), by a "White Mage" is in Lost City of Amdapor HM. Â And even then, it's "Ancient Holy." Â We never see the Padjal - who are the only active White Mages beyond the Warrior of Light - even reference Holy. Â So, to me, that says it's probably a game mechanics thing that we even have the spell on our bars.

Holy is taught to the player character by Ray-O Senna.

Lv50 Job Quest Wrote:Raya-O-Senna expresses her profound gratitude for your assistance in the ritual. In recognition of your accomplishments as a white mage, she bestows upon you the last piece of your garb-- now imbued with the power of the departed A-Towa-Cant-- and imparts unto you the most powerful incantation she knows. Expressing her confidence that you will bring succor to the realm and do her people proud, she wishes you well in your journeys.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Forest

LiadansWhisper · **03-13-2016, 04:53 PM**

(03-13-2016, 04:41 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: Holy is taught to the player character by Ray-O Senna.

Lv50 Job Quest Wrote:Raya-O-Senna expresses her profound gratitude for your assistance in the ritual. In recognition of your accomplishments as a white mage, she bestows upon you the last piece of your garb-- now imbued with the power of the departed A-Towa-Cant-- and imparts unto you the most powerful incantation she knows. Expressing her confidence that you will bring succor to the realm and do her people proud, she wishes you well in your journeys.

http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Heart_of_the_Forest

That's Benediction. You get the chest and Benediction at 50. Holy is learned at 45 (which always struck me as really weird) from http://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Y...or_the_Urn . I need to go back and watch the cutscene, but I thought that you auto got the spell from the soulstone and not Raya.

Kellach Woods · **03-13-2016, 05:12 PM**

(03-13-2016, 04:25 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Yes, but is that a question of game mechanics (in that it's available to WHM players and is harmful) or is it actually an instance where they literally have access to what has traditionally been one of the most powerful spells in a White Mage's arsenal? Â (This is the only game I've seen where it's treated as a run-of-the-mill spell instead of something on the level of, say, Meteor for a Black Mage.)

It's actually the equivalent of Flare (or NUKE if you prefer the FF1 version).

I can't recall a game where Holy was a big deal.

LiadansWhisper · **03-13-2016, 05:15 PM**

(03-13-2016, 05:12 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(03-13-2016, 04:25 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Yes, but is that a question of game mechanics (in that it's available to WHM players and is harmful) or is it actually an instance where they literally have access to what has traditionally been one of the most powerful spells in a White Mage's arsenal? Â (This is the only game I've seen where it's treated as a run-of-the-mill spell instead of something on the level of, say, Meteor for a Black Mage.)
It's actually the equivalent of Flare (or NUKE if you prefer the FF1 version).

I can't recall a game where Holy was a big deal.

7 is the one that comes to mind, and I think 9, too, but I haven't played either in yearrrrs. In 7 it was literally a shield. It was the ultimate spell Yuna learns in 10.

Kellach Woods · **03-13-2016, 05:37 PM**

Funnily enough, the first named White Mage in the series never learns it because Holy didn't exist back then, and sacrifices his life to grant your party Ultima.

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