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T'errin · **01-18-2017, 05:26 PM**

(01-18-2017, 04:22 PM)Nero Wrote: A). How did the Resistance forces even breach the Wall in the first place?

If we assume that Laurentius and Yuyuhase helped the Resistance forces enter the Wall, then Garlemald's security is hilariously bad, because this means that the "take a uniform, infiltrate stronghold" trick worked on them twice on two major military installations (Castrum Centri and now the Wall). Garlemald has a habit of conscripting conquered peoples, but apparently doesn't check to make sure they're not saboteurs or infiltrators.

B). If the Garleans had sufficient force to defeat the rebels, then why did the rebels only lose when Laurentius activated the killdroids?

The Garleans were losing decisively before Laurentius activated his killdroids (as evidenced by everything Garlean being dead or destroyed before said droids were activated). The heavy implication is that the Resistance would have successfully taken the wall had said killdroids not been activated, which still says that Garlemald is laughably bad at their border defence.

C). Why was Laurentius put in charge of activating the killdroids in the first place?

If these killdroids were Garlean forces, why weren't they immediately activated when the wall is attacked and immediately become anti-resistance gore machines? If Laurentius and Yuyuhase deliberately delayed the activation of the killdroids, then why were two random grunts who were definitely not Garlean officers put in charge of the killdroids? And why are Garlean military installations just so damn easy to infiltrate?

For A), they seem to point towards the surprise of being attacked from the other side of the Wall being the primary cause, but then you can consider that between basically nothing happening for 28(?) years, a new Legatus, and the Garlean's war of succession, the Garleans on the Wall probably had no idea what the hell is even going on. None of the city-state leaders even bat an eye at actually taking the Wall, but focus on how the Resistance wouldn't be able to hold it.

Plus, if that one cutscene from 3.3 or 3.4 of Yda and Papalymo chilling in that Resistance camp was actually taking place within Gyr Abania, then the Garleans are either in bad shape or are horrifically incompetent.

For B), the worry didn't appear to be the forces actually on the Wall, but the inevitable reaction force that would come and take it back. One of the victims of the slaughter mentioned something about how they didn't expect the spider tank things to show up as soon as they did.

For C), with the whole thing being planned by whathisface, he probably wanted the Resistance fighters to feel victory before they were crushed to coerce more emotion and grief and whatever for the summoning. I'm assuming that those two weren't simply given the spider tanks and their control thingy by the Garleans, but managed to steal them and bring them to the Wall. Or something. Plot.

Edit - THEN AGAIN THE WOL JUST LITERALLY WALKED THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR SO

Virella · **01-18-2017, 05:31 PM**

(01-18-2017, 05:05 PM)Syranelle Ironleaf Wrote: I have to wonder what this will mean for Ala Mhigans, politically, though. Â I mean, the Eorzean Alliance isn't going to want them after all the levels of massive stupidity they've pulled just in this Patch alone. Â XD Â Stormblood seems like it will be one big Redemption Story for Ala Mhigans to make them even remotely palatable as allies.

I think the point is that the Alliance is going to be dragged into this war now, regardless if they like it or not. The Garleans by all means saw an assault from the Alliance, and not so much from the Resistance.

I do think that was a good point of Ilberd/story, to get the Alliance forced into it that way. They really don't have a choice any more. They have to make the best of out of it now, and that sadly enough will include working with the Resistance/Ala Mhigans, seeming they do know Gyr Abania better then anyone else.

But yeah, we will probably get some shitty redemption story aka Ishgard 2.0

Kellach Woods · **01-18-2017, 06:52 PM**

(01-18-2017, 05:18 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: HOPE YOU BOYS LIKE UL'DAH FOCUSED STORYLINES, BECAUSE IT'S STILL HAPPENING.

Miss me with that shit, please.

Warren Castille · **01-18-2017, 06:55 PM**

(01-18-2017, 06:52 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(01-18-2017, 05:18 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: HOPE YOU BOYS LIKE UL'DAH FOCUSED STORYLINES, BECAUSE IT'S STILL HAPPENING.
Miss me with that shit, please.

I'm... with you on that, actually. I'm mostly wondering how they're going to tuck away the fact that the Crystal Braves coup was funded by a sitting Syndicate member that seemed intended to kill the Sultana. What's the 3.0 throwaway for that not being treason, again? I mean, the Warrior of Light knows what's going on here and knows Ilberd's whole scheme was directly aided by whatshisfuck.

Kellach Woods · **01-18-2017, 07:10 PM**

I'm mostly speaking in a "so when are the other cities gonna get theirs" because every time Ul'dah gets more lore we find out just how shitty it actually is.

You'd think that with Gridania's proximity and history with Ala Mhigo would be a catalyst for more lore, especially with the fact that Gridania's nobility got exactly zero lore and would certainly be opposed to the Grid army helping out the Mhigans but nope, more Ul'dah.

Ha'uruh Nunh · **01-18-2017, 07:20 PM**

So this made me laugh.

SLOPPY

Warren Castille · **01-18-2017, 07:22 PM**

Anyone interested in hearing that in English can help themselves here, 44 seconds in.

Sounsyy · **01-18-2017, 10:13 PM**

Kay, I'm gonna make a long, long post about some things I saw in here today. To preface everything that follows, I've personally been miffed by the storyline since (namely pacing) since Heavensward began, but am holding out hope for "lessons learned" taking effect when 4.0 drops. Everything in Heavensward has been pre-written, so if they're learning anything about how not to do something, it'll more than likely show up in the story in Ala Mhigo.

Anywhoozles,

(01-18-2017, 12:23 AM)Aaron Wrote: I'm not the only one wondering why the GE isn't just sending two legions instead of one to take over Eorzea? Judging from what that gridanian chic said all this would literally be over in less than a week if Garlemad legit just went "ehh... Send two, maybe one and a half."

Totally agree with this. Eorzea's never even faced one, whole Legion before. They've faced the crippled VIIth and then the spread thin XIVth. Garlemald has now lost three Legatus to Eorzea and has thus far only replaced one. Just send two whole Legions at once at us and crush us in a week and get it over with.

I think I've harped on this before in LS chat and is one of my biggest problems with us going so quickly into Stormblood and Ala Mhigo's liberation. Eorzea is no stronger now than they were five or fifteen years ago. They've made no efforts to make alliances with the Beast tribes (except the Griffin apparently, even though he says that but no Amalj'aa show up at all?), which was the entire point of the 1.0 storyline. Yet another Ala Mhigan Resistance cell thinks it can do better than the last dozen and throws itself at Baelsar's Wall once again, only to get slaughtered, again. Yes, they finally succeeded in roping the unwilling Alliance into fighting Garlemald (maybe? We attacked all the Eorzean castrums and nothing happened) but if Garlemald sends even one fully equipped and battle ready Legion against us we'll fall easy. Even if the Garlean military is supposedly running low on their ceruleum stores, they could probably afford to make one big push if they needed.

We have no more allies than we did years ago, and Ishgard is in even worse state politically, economically, and militaristically than it was 20 years ago. So they're dead weight. That leaves the three city-states, one of which just underwent a political upheaval sorta. Basically, it's going to come down to the Warrior of Light to do everything for everybody and I'm getting kinda bored of that.

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(01-18-2017, 01:54 AM)Graeham Wrote: I do wish he would have stuck around for longer but hopefully it will not be the last time we end up teaming up with a Garlean for the sake of the greater good whilst they remain loyal to their homeland and people in the same breath.

If nothing else it's simply further proof that my own character doesn't break canon despite there being some very vocal individuals who try to make it seem like every Garlean that isn't a defector is somehow evil and without any redeeming qualities.

Regula's death was very unexpected for me and I deeply regret that literally every Legatus we meet ends up dying all alone without their legion to defend them within like a year. I can buy his reasoning for allying with us, his intentions were noble, I still think he would've stabbed us in the back if he'd been given the chance. And I have little hope that Regula's death will do anything but further drive Varis zos Galvus's rage towards Eorzea. Unlike Regula, what we know of him is that he's far, far less reasonable.

Which leads me into: individual Garleans may have redeeming qualities like any person, but the Garlean Empire as a whole has none.

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(01-18-2017, 05:41 AM)Valeera Wrote:
(01-18-2017, 01:54 AM)Graeham Wrote: Aymeric's also pretty stupid. Seriously, why is he apologising for Ishgard not lending its aid to the rest of Eorzea when it was locked in a bitter, brutal war with Nidhogg and his servants?
The Dragonsong War seems like it had its ebbs and flows, and from what I recall it was in a bit of a lull between Nidhogg getting rekt by Alberic at Ferndale and the Calamity spurring the Dravanian assault upon the Stone and Steel Vigils, so the Ishgardians likely could have spared forces. It also wouldn't have been the first time the Holy See deployed soldiers to foreign lands during the Dragonsong War. Ishgard sent its forces to the otherwise isolated Gridania to help them defend against the Ala Mhigan invasion during the Autumn War (a task arguably more difficult than facing off against a single fractured Legion with a dead commander).

On the one hand, the apology was very awkward, as even Aymeric admitted. On the other hand, literally no one should be looking at Ishgard and expecting them to offer any notable contribution. Twenty years ago, when the Eorzean Alliance amassed itself in response to the fall of Ala Mhigo, it was Ishgard that flat out withdrew from the Alliance and pulled all of its troops into the city. This marked the end for the Alliance and the other nations followed suit in abandoning Ala Mhigo to its fate, for the most part. (Gridania is one notable exception, credit where credit's due even if their efforts didn't count for much.)

But yes, Ishgard has involved itself plenty during the lulls between Nidhogg's "Awakenings", but this particular call for aid did coincide with one of Nidhogg's awakenings (the eighth). But to be fair, Nidhogg's seventh awakening was only 9 years prior to the Autumn War. /shrug.

Alberic Wrote:Alas, dragons are no less real than you and I, with Nidhogg perhaps the most real of all. In the course of its history, Ishgard has suffered under the creature on eight separate occasions. Each time the great wyrm rouses, the blood of countless Ishgardians is spilled.

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(01-18-2017, 12:45 PM)Kage Wrote: So for anyone else using Japanese dialogue, did anyone elae catch Papalymo calling Yda his "second" partner?

I've seen a few mentions of it, but from various conversations I've heard that the text itself is difficult to translate exactly from JP to EN. I've heard most people seem to think that while the text might lean towards a literal translation of "second partner," it might more accurately be localized into "second half." Which fits more in line with the other language translations.

Anonymoose Wrote:[EN]
I bid thee farewell again, my dear Yda...
Now, let us see how good a student I truly was...

[JP]
ã•ã‚ˆãªã‚‰ã ã€åƒ•ã®ãµãŸã‚Šã‚ã®ç›¸æ£’â€¦â€¦ã€‚
ã•ã‚ã€ä¸€ä¸–ä¸€ä»£ã®å¤§ã°ãã¡ã ãžï¼
Goodbye, [my second partner / couple partner / second person partner / second half]...
Alright, this kind of gamble is once-in-a-lifetime!

[DE]
Farewell, my dear companion...
Alright, then, let's see!

[FR]
Farewell, my friend... You, too, you were a terrific partner...
Alright! The moment of truth has arrived!

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(01-18-2017, 12:06 PM)Nero Wrote: 1). Tupsimati still has "great power", and yet the sealing spell takes up all of the caster's aether? Well, Tupsimati's "great power" must count for utter shit, then. The way the dialogue is written, it's implied that all of the caster's aether is used up no matter what the scale of the spell is, so what is the point of this Chekhov's gun if it doesn't even seem to matter as a plot device?

Tupsimati's great power is that it can channel nigh unlimited amounts of aether from the planet through the caster. Supposedly, it has the power to rouse the Twelve from slumber, which is the purpose Louisoix originally intended it for in 1572. He carved the symbols of the Twelve in the rocks about Eorzea and the Grand Companies defended a mass pilgrimage of worshipers to these rocks, which were (at the time) strategically laid out in a big circle around Carteneau, with Louisoix's symbol in the center at Mor Dhona. It was here that he and Urianger gathered the aether from these prayers and what remained of the corrupted Lifestream into Tupsimati.

However, Louisoix knew that what little aether remained on Hydaelyn would not be enough to support the Twelve if they gained corporeal forms completely, so he planned to kill himself before the spell was completed so that the Twelve would not be completely summoned and the aether would return to the planet. Obviously, things didn't go exactly as planned and Bahamut proved too strong, so he invoked the power of the Twelve he had gathered into making himself a primal, upon which he was supposed to die and give up his aether across the land, but just as he was dying, Bahamut tempered him and claimed his departed soul in much the same way as Darnus at Rivenroad.

SO, does the staff actually kill you? Ultimately unknown. Channeling that much aether through the caster's body as a conduit could prove fatal. Alternatively, the point that Louisoix was going to kill himself to stop the completion of the summoning seems to indicate death isn't a certainty. If Papalymo was truly attempting to invoke the exact same spell as Louisoix, which it is stated he was doing, he was attempting to summon the power of the Twelve, and like Louisoix, knew that he would need to kill himself once the seal was complete. Did Papalymo succeed? Who knows.

Encyclopedia Eorzea Wrote:Tupsimati is the legendary staff wielded by Archon Louisoix in his heroic effort to banish the elder primal Bahamut. At its tip rests a horn, an ancient treasure of Sharlayan also known as the "key," the motive force that allows its bearer to draw vast quantities of aether from his surroundings and call upon the powers of the Twelves themselves.

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(01-18-2017, 12:06 PM)Nero Wrote: This isn't particularly a problem when only a few characters do it--Urianger's verbosity is a notable exception, although what his archaic speaking style is supposed to convey about him I'm not entirely sure considering no one else in the game besides the dragons talk like him...

Louisoix gave us our only explanation for Urianger's eccentric mannerisms:

Louisoix Wrote:Mayhap you have also crossed paths with Urianger, yet another of our circle. In which case, I must crave your pardon if his mannerism strikes you as outlandish. 'Tis not his intent to confound folk with cryptic words. You see, the man has seen much more of tome than he has of the world. I assure you, though, that his heart is in the right place.

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(01-18-2017, 12:06 PM)Nero Wrote: And if said primal isn't using any ambient aether and is instead using the aether from the Eyes of Nidhogg, then why is it taking so long to form? Shiva (who didn't even need the Eyes), King Thordan, and Corrupted Estinien didn't take twenty minutes to take shape, they more or less formed instantaneously, so why is this thing suddenly special? Are there suddenly special rules for primal summoning? Was this primal busy trying to get its forms through the Department of Primal Formations so that it could take shape on Eorzea?

(01-18-2017, 04:22 PM)Nero Wrote: That still doesn't explain why this Primal takes an arbitrarily long amount of time to form when pretty much every other primal summoning was more or less instantaneous as long as sufficient aether was present. Either there's enough aether for it to materialize, or there isn't.

It's repeated constantly that summoning a primal requires a specific prayer; faith by itself is insufficient, and faith and prayer are not the same thing. Louisoix, Thordan, and the Binding Coil story all thoroughly establish that there needs to be a prayer containing a wish or desire. This is a fairly specific requirement.

My whole point behind this is that the Rhalgr primal couldn't have possibly been powerful enough to necessitate a sealing spell if we consider that the only ones praying for Rhalgr's salvation (or alternatively, praying for Rhalgr to destroy their enemies) were the Ala Mhigans dead or dying on the Wall.

This is getting into speculation for the upcoming storyline, but Virella made an interesting find in the DE version of the dialogue that, was further corroborated in the FR and JP versions as well. Ilberd is not attempting to summon Rhalgr and he's not summoning this new god in the traditional way that every other primal we've seen thus far has been summoned. He claims to be summoning something much more powerful - a primordial force. This is likely why the summoning is taking so long and why (albeit a flimsy explanation) Papalymo elects to seal the thing instead of just throwing the WoL at it, until the surviving Scions can figure out just what is inside the seal and how to defeat it.

Quote:[DE]
Ilberd: With the cry of those whom no one will hear! With the longing of those who do not fear death! With our despair and our abyssal hatred for Garlemald, I call a new God! A God who does not need begging prayers!

Papalymo: A God who does not need prayers?

Alphinaud: You really mean to fight Garlemald with a primal!? Don't be a fool, Ilberd! You know you'll pay dearly for this!

Ilberd: Not "a" primal. A [primordial / elemental] force, stronger than all primals! Stronger than the power of that black monstrosity that evoked that all-devouring catastrophe!

After Virella told me about this, I conferred with Anonymoose and we confirmed that the translations are similar in the JP and FR as well. Each says that Ilberd intends to summon a "new god" that is free of the "faith" "dogma" or "begging prayers" to fuel it. This seems like it will be a new chapter in the "What the Ascians know about Primal Summoning that we don't" saga, like when we first encountered Shiva.

My guess is that while "figuring out how to deal with this" in the non-traditional don't throw the WoL at it way, Nero will approach the Scions holding the keys to Omega. Omega, being Ultima's sibling more or less, will likely be believed and advertised as a way for them to contain this "primordial god." Which leads to Yda being the one to punch the button to decompress the botched summoning and finalize Papalymo's death in her mind. I also suspect Nero will backstab us around this point or Omega will come with some unanticipated side effects that will lead us into it being the 4.0 Raid, the Bend of Time, which is a pocket dimension in the Chrono Cross series. So we'll see.

Honestly though, I don't really have any other responses to most of your arguments. There's a lot of holes. A lot of quick tie-ups in the various storylines. A lot of just... idk, like you I hope Stormblood is better. I just haven't been able to invest in Heavensward's story and I'm praying that the coming continuation of Ala Mhigo's 1.0 storyline, the story that got me so heavily invested in this game, will be greatly improved.

Jana · **01-19-2017, 11:53 AM**

I wonder if Ilberd's "primal" will be something like a nationalistic spirit of Ala Mhigo, like a giant Griffin or something.

Cailean Lockwood · **01-19-2017, 03:46 PM**

(01-19-2017, 11:53 AM)Jana Wrote: I wonder if Ilberd's "primal" will be something like a nationalistic spirit of Ala Mhigo, like a giant Griffin or something.

Rhalgr... it's gonna be Rhalgr... He might look like a griffin though. Tongue

But yeah, Ilberd said he would summon a god, because a primal is just not good enough... and seeing he is a Highlander and he needs a god of war to do... war... stuff... then Rhalgr is the most likely answer.

Shoshopu · **01-19-2017, 05:07 PM**

What if Ilberd's new god is...

... himself?

Virella · **01-19-2017, 05:19 PM**

(01-19-2017, 03:46 PM)Corin Sorceleur Wrote:
(01-19-2017, 11:53 AM)Jana Wrote: I wonder if Ilberd's "primal" will be something like a nationalistic spirit of Ala Mhigo, like a giant Griffin or something.

Rhalgr... it's gonna be Rhalgr... He might look like a griffin though.
But yeah, Ilberd said he would summon a god, because a primal is just not good enough... and seeing he is a Highlander and he needs a god of war to do... war... stuff... then Rhalgr is the most likely answer.

It's probably not Rhalgr though!

English, once more, get's shafted in lore we get. Read Sounsyy's post above why it probably won't be Rhalgr in detail. Ilberd speaks of a new God who doesn't need worshipping and praying to, freed of dogma and all that. So he is probably going to summon something new. Maybe it will be an improved Rhalgr 2.0, but that's the further stretch I would want to give it.

Not to mention if that is Rhalgr, it would just make Eorzea a cakewalk to overtake. Religion would shatter complete within in Eorzea, and destabilising governments all over the place due to it. Even if PCs often don't give a fuck, the people in Eorzea and those ruling it, really do. Next to that you will get 'Garlemald was right' type of nonsense if our Gods are dumbed down to primal level.

Also we can see the primal's feet, so I doubt it be a Griffin, unless it is some human/griffin hybrid new god/primal?

Gegenji · **01-19-2017, 05:57 PM**

On the flip side, almost everyone at the wall is dead. So, if it IS a Rhalgr summon, the ones that would witness it are few and far between. The Scions, our traitorous pair that called the spider mechs, and whatever Garlean reinforcements might make it in time. Maybe some of the GC might get a long distance glimpse. All in all it might be able to be kept a dirty secret by the Scions.

Maybe.

Edit: A thought occurs to me, though, regarding what the Griffin says in the various language translations. If it's a being that doesn't require prayer and whatnot for sustenance, maybe the prayers of the dying are merely to give it shape. The actual "power source", if you will, being Nidhogg's eyes. Or perhaps they will function like the horn artifact that powered Alexander, allowing it to sustain itself without need to temper and have worshippers.

Granted, the latter case still means it'd drain the planet's aether... but omission of details could be attributed to the Griffin's proclamation. In fact, we don't know much he says is true and how much may be fabricated, possibly by the Ascians. Unreliable sources have been a thing for a while now in FFXIV.

... Maybe this is just how Elder Primals like Bahamut and Odin are formed.

Nebbs · **01-19-2017, 06:36 PM**

Not sure if a spoiler (as a bug) but when you complete the beast tribe quests in 3.5 you loose the ability to buy items with gil from the pre-heavensward Tribe vendors

Virella · **01-19-2017, 07:40 PM**

(01-19-2017, 05:57 PM)Gegenji Wrote: On the flip side, almost everyone at the wall is dead. So, if it IS a Rhalgr summon, the ones that would witness it are few and far between. The Scions, our traitorous pair that called the spider mechs, and whatever Garlean reinforcements might make it in time. Maybe some of the GC might get a long distance glimpse. All in all it might be able to be kept a dirty secret by the Scions.

Maybe.

Edit: A thought occurs to me, though, regarding what the Griffin says in the various language translations. If it's a being that doesn't require prayer and whatnot for sustenance, maybe the prayers of the dying are merely to give it shape. The actual "power source", if you will, being Nidhogg's eyes. Or perhaps they will function like the horn artifact that powered Alexander, allowing it to sustain itself without need to temper and have worshippers.

Granted, the latter case still means it'd drain the planet's aether... but omission of details could be attributed to the Griffin's proclamation. In fact, we don't know much he says is true and how much may be fabricated, possibly by the Ascians. Unreliable sources have been a thing for a while now in FFXIV.

... Maybe this is just how Elder Primals like Bahamut and Odin are formed.

I mean uuh... its a giant floating thing who can be seen all over the Shroud. Unless Nero lorewise comes flying in with Omega weapon 5 minutes later, I'd imagine that thing in the sky would spread like wildfire.

Then again, SE didn't update any NPC dialogue. Including those in the East Shroud. It's kinda... hilarious to see NPCs just go about their business and ignore the giant new moon like thing in the sky :l

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