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L'ohba Tia · **01-18-2017, 01:09 PM**

(01-18-2017, 01:08 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(01-18-2017, 01:05 PM)L Wrote: 4. They didn't. Did you miss the part where they were all slaughtered? All the resistance managed was to kill some Garleans before the spiders came in.
Spiders under the control of Laurentius OR DID WE CONVENIENTLY FORGET that this motherfucker released "something" that coincided with the spiders showing up.

Even before the spiders showed up it was considered a massacre.

And as you can see by Laurentius and Yuyuhase's clothes, they had people on the inside to help.

***Nero*** · **01-18-2017, 04:22 PM**

(01-18-2017, 01:05 PM)Lohba Tia Wrote: 1. The spell didn't kill Papalymo because it took all his aether. Papalymo killed himself because the spell involves invoking a primal summoning and then committing suicide before it fully manifests.

This seems to be a rather slipshod way to justify the completely arbitrary appearance of the sealing spell and Tupsimati.

For one, it's objectively poor writing because it requires knowledge of info that's only established in the Final Coil of Bahamut, and at no point is Louisoix becoming Phoenix or the methodology of such ever established in a satisfactory way in the main story. At best, there's one, maybe two lines of dialogue mentioning it in the paragraphs of overly long text.

For two, the dialogue that occurs post-cutscene rather explicitly describes how the spell is fatal because it requires all of the caster's aether. Nowhere is it mentioned that Papalymo was attempting to invoke a Phoenix-like primal entity, nor is it mentioned that dying as a Primal and then releasing the aether back to the land like Louisoix is something that occurred. Papalymo having to become a primal to perform the sealing spell should be a big plot point, and yet it's mentioned nowhere, which either means no one actually knows how the sealing spell works, or more likely the sealing spell doesn't necessitate such a thing.

(01-18-2017, 01:05 PM)Lohba Tia Wrote: 2. The Rhalgr primal had used the aether from the dead bodies and Nidhogg's Eyes. He didn't pull from ambient aether. When something dies a violent death, its aether bursts out in a violent way and creates crystals. Mass deaths are just as usable for summoning a primal as crystals are.

That still doesn't explain why this Primal takes an arbitrarily long amount of time to form when pretty much every other primal summoning was more or less instantaneous as long as sufficient aether was present. Either there's enough aether for it to materialize, or there isn't.

If anything, this just presents more contradiction; why couldn't they utilize the aether released from the deaths? There are only two possibilities to this: Either the primal has already absorbed all of the aether from the deaths and the Eye (in which case there's literally no reason for it to not materialize unless there simply wasn't enough aether, which is frankly a hilarious miscalculation on the part of everyone present), or the primal hasn't absorbed the aether and said aether should be perfectly usable by Papalymo.

Either the aether is already absorbed by the primal, or it's ambient. Even if we go with the explanation that primals are like black holes and aether is like light and the aether was in the process of being absorbed and could not be drawn to any other location, that raises all sorts of questions that poke even more holes in how primals are summoned in the first place.

(01-18-2017, 01:05 PM)Lohba Tia Wrote: 3. This is a primal of the Twelve, with so much faith backing it and aether from both of Nidhogg's eyes that it would be vastly more powerful than King Thordan was. It could possibly be as bad as Bahamut, given that he's also the Destroyer.

It's repeated constantly that summoning a primal requires a specific prayer; faith by itself is insufficient, and faith and prayer are not the same thing. Louisoix, Thordan, and the Binding Coil story all thoroughly establish that there needs to be a prayer containing a wish or desire. This is a fairly specific requirement.

In Louisoix's case, it was the combatants of Carteneau praying to be saved from Bahamut.

Quote:Louisoix: This drifting energy responded to the prayers of those fighting belowâ”€and to my own desperate wish that the dying realm be savedâ”€by infusing me with the power of a primal.
Louisoix: I became the immortal Phoenix, ancient symbol of rebirth.

In Thordan's case, it was a millennium of fervent prayer instilled in the Ishgardian people for salvation from the dragons.

Quote:King Thordan: By taking unto my flesh the soul of the legendary King Thordan, I am become a godâ€”A god who knows not cessation, whose being is sustained by a millennium of fervent prayer and the Eye's nigh bottomless reservoir of aether.

The Binding Coil too, housed hundreds of Meracydian dragons held in stasis. The Allagans held the dragons in stasis so they would constantly pray for salvation, thus keeping Bahamut materialized to harvest energy from.

My whole point behind this is that the Rhalgr primal couldn't have possibly been powerful enough to necessitate a sealing spell if we consider that the only ones praying for Rhalgr's salvation (or alternatively, praying for Rhalgr to destroy their enemies) were the Ala Mhigans dead or dying on the Wall. And this is where the entire thing gets hazy and the whole "primal summoning" thing falls apart due to Square's lack of detail on the subject; were the Garleans' prayers included as well? Does the power of a primal depend on the amount of prayer or just the amount of aether?

(01-18-2017, 01:05 PM)Lohba Tia Wrote: 4. They didn't. Did you miss the part where they were all slaughtered? All the resistance managed was to kill some Garleans before the spiders came in.

And yet, those war machines are heavily implied to have been activated and released by Laurentius, which just pokes more holes in the issue.

A). How did the Resistance forces even breach the Wall in the first place?

If we assume that Laurentius and Yuyuhase helped the Resistance forces enter the Wall, then Garlemald's security is hilariously bad, because this means that the "take a uniform, infiltrate stronghold" trick worked on them twice on two major military installations (Castrum Centri and now the Wall). Garlemald has a habit of conscripting conquered peoples, but apparently doesn't check to make sure they're not saboteurs or infiltrators.

B). If the Garleans had sufficient force to defeat the rebels, then why did the rebels only lose when Laurentius activated the killdroids?

The Garleans were losing decisively before Laurentius activated his killdroids (as evidenced by everything Garlean being dead or destroyed before said droids were activated). The heavy implication is that the Resistance would have successfully taken the wall had said killdroids not been activated, which still says that Garlemald is laughably bad at their border defence.

C). Why was Laurentius put in charge of activating the killdroids in the first place?

If these killdroids were Garlean forces, why weren't they immediately activated when the wall is attacked and immediately become anti-resistance gore machines? If Laurentius and Yuyuhase deliberately delayed the activation of the killdroids, then why were two random grunts who were definitely not Garlean officers put in charge of the killdroids? And why are Garlean military installations just so damn easy to infiltrate?

At this point I'm basically complaining about nothing because really, who cares. Papalymo dying has no emotional weight at all considering he was basically totally absent throughout the entirety of Heavensward and he definitely wasn't relevant at all in ARR either except as Yda's sidekick, so whatever.

I hope Stormblood has better writing.

Virella · **01-18-2017, 04:28 PM**

It's probably not Rhalgr, or as we know him guys. Sadly enough ENG text got shafted /again/ as usual, but Ilberd speaks of a new God who doesn't need praying to. Unless he's going the better, stronger, faster route with Rhalgr and comes up with a 2.0 version, its probably something new.

(that said, would be awesome if it was Rhalgr, but that logically seen would cause so much drama in Eorzea. Religion would be shattered everywhere if the Twelve could just be summoned like that. Garlemald was right and all that, next to that.)

Warren Castille · **01-18-2017, 04:31 PM**

I'm struggling to remember where we know Sideburns from. Wasn't Laurentius the annoying guy in the Shroud that was conspiring with Garleans and we have to track him down a thousand times?

Virella · **01-18-2017, 04:32 PM**

(01-18-2017, 04:31 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I'm struggling to remember where we know Sideburns from. Wasn't Laurentius the annoying guy in the Shroud that was conspiring with Garleans and we have to track him down a thousand times?

Yes. Then he joined the Crystal Braves to redeem himself. So about that...

***Teadrinker*** · **01-18-2017, 04:37 PM**

The power of Tupsimati is that it gathers aether around it at an unprecedented rate to cast spells normally uncastable.

But this sealing spell requires the wielder to have Tupsimati to cast it and also kills the user because.....reasons.

....Then what is the frigging point of Tupsimati?Â

Also, at best, this primal is gonna be like baby Bahamut in a 70s Schwarzenegger body with no eyebrows. Louisoix failed at sealing Bahamut (who was sealed in Dalamud) and it appears that Papalymo succeeded so right off the bat it's safe to say this primal is not as powerful.

I think what irritates me the most about this writing is Square is trying so hard to make me FEEL things while assuming I'm stupid and will just ignore plot sinkholes.

Also I really can't feel ANYTHING for Papalymo honestly. He's been MIA for an xpac. Were they expecting tears? Undecided

Warren Castille · **01-18-2017, 04:38 PM**

That makes sense, then. If he ran back to the Empire with first-hand intel, he'd likely be rewarded for it. He's a triple-agent I guess, but it's not completely out of sorts.

Warren Castille · **01-18-2017, 04:39 PM**

(01-18-2017, 04:37 PM)Teadrinker Wrote: Also I really can't feel ANYTHING for Papalymo honestly. He's been MIA for an xpac. Were they expecting tears?

Given the explicit callbacks to the end of 1.x that happen in that cutscene, yes.

***Teadrinker*** · **01-18-2017, 04:41 PM**

(01-18-2017, 04:39 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(01-18-2017, 04:37 PM)Teadrinker Wrote: Also I really can't feel ANYTHING for Papalymo honestly. He's been MIA for an xpac. Were they expecting tears?

Given the explicit callbacks to the end of 1.x that happen in that cutscene, yes.

I may just be heartless I suppose. Or it's a cutscene that appeals to a minority of the playerbase who were there for 1.0. Admittedly, I was not.

Kilieit · **01-18-2017, 04:41 PM**

(01-18-2017, 12:13 PM)Gegenji Wrote: ... And that's why I chose not to leave. Not that it meant anything since you get But Thou Must'd onto the airship by Papa anyway.

ngl this made me laugh out loud - the Warrior of Light's one true weakness. A seemingly immortal being who has defeated approaching a dozen demigods and who shows no signs of wavering in power or resolve... only to be compelled inexorably by a simple incantation! One can only imagine what would happen if the Garleans got ahold of such power!! xD

Kellach Woods · **01-18-2017, 04:45 PM**

(01-18-2017, 04:39 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Given the explicit callbacks to the end of 1.x that happen in that cutscene, yes.

Cool, all I thought was "oh look we'll have to kill him in the next raid hoorah."

Valence · **01-18-2017, 05:05 PM**

I'm not contesting any plot holes mentioned above or anything, quite the contrary, but I want to point out that the wall is maybe primarily designed to keep Eorzeans out of the Empire's territory, not the other way around. When you build a wall, it's not necessarily closed at the other side, quite the contrary in fact.

Maybe that wall is facing eorzea, while all the stairs, elevators, machinery, encampments and military barracks are behind it, exposed to Ala-Migho (which is supposed to be, you know, conquered territory under garlean control and whatnot...).

We don't know how many they were exactly to storm that wall, and what were the circumstances surrounding the imperial garrison active there, especially considering the truce was still holding since the Black Wolf failed.

Syranelle Ironleaf · **01-18-2017, 05:05 PM**

My prediction is that it will be Rhalgr summoned as a "Primal" in a way similar to Shiva. Â The Garleans will retaliate with Omega Weapon -- and the WOL will be sent to destroy Omega after it's absorbed/defeated Rhalgr.

I have to wonder what this will mean for Ala Mhigans, politically, though. Â I mean, the Eorzean Alliance isn't going to want them after all the levels of massive stupidity they've pulled just in this Patch alone. Â XD Â Stormblood seems like it will be one big Redemption Story for Ala Mhigans to make them even remotely palatable as allies.

Edda · **01-18-2017, 05:12 PM**

(01-18-2017, 04:41 PM)Teadrinker Wrote:
(01-18-2017, 04:39 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(01-18-2017, 04:37 PM)Teadrinker Wrote: Also I really can't feel ANYTHING for Papalymo honestly. He's been MIA for an xpac. Were they expecting tears?

Given the explicit callbacks to the end of 1.x that happen in that cutscene, yes.

I may just be heartless I suppose. Or it's a cutscene that appeals to a minority of the playerbase who were there for 1.0. Admittedly, I was not.

You're not heartless. I found the scene hard to get into emotionally as well. I was far more interested in the very distinctive 'squish' noise Ilberd made. The scene was really rushed, heavy-handed, and worst of all - predictable. At least that's what I thought of it. I'm also skeptical of characters being killed off for-realsies-for-good now thanks to Nanamo, so even though we're now 'Papalymo's Final Witness' I feel there's a pretty even chance we'll see him again in some form or another. Unfortunately.

Warren Castille · **01-18-2017, 05:18 PM**

(01-18-2017, 05:05 PM)Syranelle Ironleaf Wrote: My prediction is that it will be Rhalgr summoned as a "Primal" in a way similar to Shiva. Â The Garleans will retaliate with Omega Weapon -- and the WOL will be sent to destroy Omega after it's absorbed/defeated Rhalgr.

I have to wonder what this will mean for Ala Mhigans, politically, though. Â I mean, the Eorzean Alliance isn't going to want them after all the levels of massive stupidity they've pulled just in this Patch alone. Â XD Â Stormblood seems like it will be one big Redemption Story for Ala Mhigans to make them even remotely palatable as allies.

See, I was thinking about that too. The most renowned hero in the world has identified the Ala Mhigan Resistance ringleader as the guy who also attempted a coup a year ago and tried to murder the Sultana. On one of the Syndicate's dime, at that.

HOPE YOU BOYS LIKE UL'DAH FOCUSED STORYLINES, BECAUSE IT'S STILL HAPPENING.

I don't really know, though. The Mhigans got duped in the least-stunning reveal we've had in Heavensward. I don't think it'll be Rhalgr since that will do very bad things to Eorzean belief as a whole (not the mention the better translations across every other language except English).

My hedged early bet is that's where Proto-Ultima is going to come from. My back-up guess is that digging out Omega frees Proto-Ultima.

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