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Myal · **07-02-2013, 10:59 PM**

(07-02-2013, 09:54 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote:
(07-02-2013, 09:20 PM)Myal Wrote: Also, people in the PUG guild quest make comments like "Whoa, it took me years to learn that!"

Doesn't that just give more ground for the idea that players learn class/job skills easier than non-players? If the quest lore even acknowledges that we as players can learn skills that would take a normal person years to learn, and it only takes up a few weeks or so, then it would stand to reason that the game already justifies playing a character who has unlocked the potential of all guilds.

This is coming back to the story/RP segregation discussion, isn't it? I consider the "story player character" and the "RP character" separate people altogether. There are of course this particular, special person who could learn year-long skills in weeks. There's nothing that suggest that there are many of such a person, and my RP character is not one of such amazing geniuses.

FreelanceWizard · **07-02-2013, 11:34 PM**

(07-02-2013, 10:59 PM)Myal Wrote: There are of course this particular, special person who could learn year-long skills in weeks. There's nothing that suggest that there are many of such a person...

With respect, I feel that the main scenario quest of 2.0, as revealed so far in beta 3, does make it pretty clear that there are many such people. Smile

They are, however, a minority of adventurers, who are themselves a minority of characters in the game world. That minority, though, is written such that it includes all PCs.

Personally, with this particular game's main scenario quest, I think it's problematic to ignore the "story player character." The story reveals some pretty key lore about player characters that's hard to ignore while retaining the ability to do instanced raids and quests. (Damn you, spoilers! Smile

)

Curtis West · **07-02-2013, 11:34 PM**

(07-02-2013, 07:51 PM)Myal Wrote:
(07-02-2013, 02:01 PM)Curtis West Wrote: After all, our characters are special. No no, I don't buy into the whole "Main storyline hero" plot, but rather the realistic expectation of my character to NOT die as easily as an average warrior. He is above being fodder, and I think if you do not want your character to even be considered talented, you also have to face the fact that they would realistically die early on from something a talented warrior may survive (think dungeons, ambush, etc.) So, I assume if my character, or anyone else's doesn't die off easily, and survives these crazy "adventures" they are in fact either naturally talented or very dedicated and hard working.

Does a knack for surviving automatically imply skill in combat, though? Maybe a character is just quick on their feet. Maybe they're cunning and avoid dangers to begin with. Maybe they're just plain lucky.

After all, Frodo survived that crazy journey of his and I'm pretty sure he would never be able to wield a halberd even if he trained all his life.

(07-02-2013, 02:01 PM)Curtis West Wrote: If we assume most if not all PC characters are talented in one way or another, much like a talented / naturally gifted athlete, they can be above average at any fighting style.

I'm not sure about that. Suppose there is a knife expert. He doesn't have extraordinary strength: he just has good stamina, a nimble feet to close in on enemies and the precision to strike soft, weak points. Could he wield a great axe? Could he even lift the thing?

You might argue that considering that he's talented in combat, if we gave him some months to train, he'd be able to use the great axe reliably. But then he'd be less nimble due to all the lifting muscles he'd develop. His hands would be less accurate due to the heavy strain he'd constantly give them. He'd be less of a knife expert.

Why would he learn a great axe at all, then? From his point of view, it'd be better to just continue to hone his skills with knife, to be even more effective using the ability that had served him well all his life.

1) Seeing as how most of the activities have some sort of fighting involved when outside of the city, would many characters opt for "I am just an explorer" role that specifically excludes them from combat of any sort? I agree that a warrior of high ability will likely be all of those things you outlined, but they'd be foolish not to know how to kill somehow, with their life on the line and all. Given at how dangerous the world can be outside the city limits, an untrained or even a character of average fighting ability can get pwned for good. When I try to put myself in the shoes of my character, it's often a life or death situation (which is why he didn't rush off to fight the Empire like everyone else at the end of 1.0, afraid to die) when faced with the forces of Eorzea... I have had trouble putting away the fact that it's a game and my character can't really die.

Frodo was also a main hero of the whole story, which I'd argue probably doesn't apply to every character in XIV. Think of the side characters, or the other hundreds of people who died in those epic battles. That's likely a better comparison! lol

2) Actually the idea that you lose agility when you're big isn't really the case. It's one of those things (like wielding a single weapon makes you better than having experience in multiple weapons) that makes sense on paper but... consider again gifted athletes. (After all, warriors are by the very nature gifted athletes first and foremost.) Those guys in the NFL are HUGE, 240lbs of muscle (if not more) and very quick. Athletically inclined people can do this because of fast-twitch/slow-twitch muscle fiber composition. (You can google more about this if you care to, I wont bore you.) My thought is that our characters are basically "NFL equivalent" compared to the rest because they simply overcome odds, travel in time, can face down huge threats and survive over and over again (IC'ly).Â

With this in mind, a character wielding a knife is likely quicker than if he was holding an axe, but neither of those skills impair the other. Growing lean muscle doesn't equal being ridiculously slow with a dagger. Both of these activities (as well as any fighting in general) are short-burst, high intensity, and anaerobic. Basically as far as one's body, there is no difference. The only difference is in skill with the weapon... which we are not taking into consideration here, because this is about potential ability.

ArmachiA · **07-02-2013, 11:39 PM**

(07-02-2013, 09:20 PM)Myal Wrote: This is coming back to the story/RP segregation discussion, isn't it? I consider the "story player character" and the "RP character" separate people altogether.

Plot Twist, we are all playing in one giant Echo.

FreelanceWizard · **07-02-2013, 11:40 PM**

(07-02-2013, 11:39 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: Plot Twist, we are all playing in one giant Echo.

Mind. Blown.

Smile

Naunet · **07-03-2013, 12:12 AM**

(07-02-2013, 11:34 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Personally, with this particular game's main scenario quest, I think it's problematic to ignore the "story player character." The story reveals some pretty key lore about player characters that's hard to ignore while retaining the ability to do instanced raids and quests. (Damn you, spoilers! )

Eh, I doubt only the Warriors of Light are capable of doing dungeons, so there are likely plenty of opportunities for fighter-type characters that don't follow the main story PC plot. And certainly a non-combat character should be able to do any PvE they so wish OOCly.

FreelanceWizard · **07-03-2013, 12:34 AM**

(07-03-2013, 12:12 AM)Naunet Wrote:
(07-02-2013, 11:34 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Personally, with this particular game's main scenario quest, I think it's problematic to ignore the "story player character." The story reveals some pretty key lore about player characters that's hard to ignore while retaining the ability to do instanced raids and quests. (Damn you, spoilers! )
Eh, I doubt only the Warriors of Light are capable of doing dungeons, so there are likely plenty of opportunities for fighter-type characters that don't follow the main story PC plot. And certainly a non-combat character should be able to do any PvE they so wish OOCly.

There are certain fights you can't participate in ICly if you don't have the Echo, actually. There's one instanced raid in specific around level 20 that comes to mind. I expect high end dungeons will have more such fights.

And, sure, you can do whatever you want OOCly, but then you're missing out on being able to do the content ICly or with groups that want to do the content IC (assuming they'd prefer to have others in the group who also want to do it IC). How much that matters to a player is up to them, though. As a non-combatant character, you also run into the complications of having potentially high combat class levels, but as was discussed in another thread, that's not that big of an issue as long as you're careful.

Naunet · **07-03-2013, 12:37 AM**

It's honestly never something I'd have thought anyone would think could be an issue. It's always seemed a given to me and those I've RPed with that one roleplays their character within their IC means. xD Common sense.

Nox · **07-03-2013, 12:54 AM**

I apologize for my earlier post. I can understand how someone might take what I said as confrontational and, quite frankly, rather aggressive. I didn't really mean it that way, I had just woken up and didn't know what I was typing. I basically had a direction and typed in that direction. But that's not the point of this post.

I see that I was looking at this the wrong way. My background is forum rping, so I see a Do Everything character and instantly associate it with a Gary-Stu/Mary-Sue. So yeah, I must apologize for that. In thinking it over, because of how lore set up the characters, multi-classing and being good at multiple classes does make more sense in this scenario.Â

Quote:ArmachiALoki is a former Archer, new Arcanist (Soon Summoner) in RP so she knows two jobs, but not all of them (She doesn't know about being a bard either). The thing is, I do endgame and since this game allowed you to multiclass, you're going to see Loki with lots of high level jobs (To switch around as necessary). She's my "endgame character", all my other characters will have jobs only related to their RP persona's (Armi will be a former CNJ turned BRD, for instance), but Loki will have many, many OOC jobs leveled. As I like the idea of running through end game on one character (For selfish reasons - so people recognize me easier and won't be scared to ask me to a raid or something) I see no other way around not leveling her on multiple jobs. Loki will not know these jobs ICly probably ever.Â

HOWEVER, I totally get only leveling the job you have for RP. In fact, it's something I would do if I wasn't doing endgame. It's a personal choice and one I totally get.Â

It's also a personal choice to level a Maurader but say your a Chocobo breeder. RP is pretty flexible.

This is actually a pretty good idea and something I'll probably do. W'Dekan is my main character and, as such, my "end game" character. Even if ICly, W'Dekan only ever uses his Dragoon Job, OCCly, he'll have all of the classes. This whole topic, though, (As many others have said) comes down to person choice. That's all I'll really say on it.

Ashren Dotharl · **07-03-2013, 02:01 AM**

Again I have to agree with FreelanceWizard on this topic, there is plenty to suggest in the game that every PC in the story are one of the chosen few who can learn things with ease. However I think ultimately it all boils down to personal preference, nothing says you have to play your character how SE intend. If you make a MRD but want to RP as a Chocobo Breeder I see nothing wrong with that, so long as I'm not flamed or blacklisted for wanting to play my character how the Warriors of Light were intended based on the storyline.

In most games, the storyline isolates the character into their own metaplot where everything they do is treated as if they were the only special snowflake in the world, and more often than not they only serve as a sidekick to a much more powerful character. For example, in World of Warcraft the game never really acknowledges that there are hundreds of thousands (or millions?) of other people all doing the same thing as you, it treats you like the hero of your own story, but more often than not you end up just helping main characters do stuff.

In Final Fantasy XIV they went the exact opposite of this route, instead treating the storyline (for the most part) as a global metaplot that completely acknowledges the fact that you are not the only Adventurer in he world, let alone the only "special" adventurer/Warrior of Light. Because of this it is much easier to actually include metaplot in your characters story and development.

Again, too each their own however.

Myal · **07-03-2013, 02:09 AM**

(07-02-2013, 11:34 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(07-02-2013, 10:59 PM)Myal Wrote: There are of course this particular, special person who could learn year-long skills in weeks. There's nothing that suggest that there are many of such a person...

With respect, I feel that the main scenario quest of 2.0, as revealed so far in beta 3, does make it pretty clear that there are many such people. They are, however, a minority of adventurers, who are themselves a minority of characters in the game world. That minority, though, is written such that it includes all PCs.

I don't really get that impression, though? Could you explain a bit more? We do have a spoiler tag!

(07-02-2013, 11:34 PM)Curtis West Wrote: 1) Seeing as how most of the activities have some sort of fighting involved when outside of the city, would many characters opt for "I am just an explorer" role that specifically excludes them from combat of any sort? I agree that a warrior of high ability will likely be all of those things you outlined, but they'd be foolish not to know how to kill somehow, with their life on the line and all. Given at how dangerous the world can be outside the city limits, an untrained or even a character of average fighting ability can get pwned for good. When I try to put myself in the shoes of my character, it's often a life or death situation (which is why he didn't rush off to fight the Empire like everyone else at the end of 1.0, afraid to die) when faced with the forces of Eorzea... I have had trouble putting away the fact that it's a game and my character can't really die.

Frodo was also a main hero of the whole story, which I'd argue probably doesn't apply to every character in XIV. Think of the side characters, or the other hundreds of people who died in those epic battles. That's likely a better comparison! lol

Sure, untrained people would have higher chances to die in this dangerous world, but I'm sure that the majority still survive. Else how could society persevere? Sure there are hundreds of people who died in epic battles, but surely hundreds survive, too? Does that mean that all hundreds of them are battle experts?

That's the point about Frodo, though. Our character is the main hero of our own story. There could be many reasons why a character could survive mortal, dangerous odds without resorting to "they're just a natural born warrior", just like Frodo. And anyway, Merry and Pippin survived, too.

(07-02-2013, 11:34 PM)Curtis West Wrote: With this in mind, a character wielding a knife is likely quicker than if he was holding an axe, but neither of those skills impair the other. Growing lean muscle doesn't equal being ridiculously slow with a dagger. Both of these activities (as well as any fighting in general) are short-burst, high intensity, and anaerobic. Basically as far as one's body, there is no difference. The only difference is in skill with the weapon... which we are not taking into consideration here, because this is about potential ability.

I'm not saying that he'd be ridiculously slow with a dagger. I'm saying that he'd be slower. And that he doesn't really have any reason to do so, considering that knives have served him well.

NFL players learn MMA to gain edge in the field, but would a skill in axe-swinging lend anything to a knife fight? You said that an MMA athlete outperform others who only train in one particular style, but aren't they all hand-to-hand combat? Wouldn't a person who is skilled in sword arts be better served in learning other various sword styles rather than suddenly picking up a lance?

Bear in mind that I have nothing against those who want a character that's proficient in multiple weapons, especially if it's related to their livelihood. I'm just explaining the rationale behind a character who prefer to just hone their skill with a single weapon.

Myllor · **07-03-2013, 07:48 AM**

There are some things people will generally frown at you for, like (off the top of my head) whipping out two gun-blades, and fighting like a legatus on meth suddenly. To me this shouts "THIS GUYS THE ENEMY!" ICly, but OOCly, I might just feel like this person is making their character concept over-powered.

I may eat my words if SE releases gunblades for a class, but I personally feel like this is one of those things that is just outside the limits.

I personally like to use Paladin and White Mage for RP (1.0 anyway), but my character was capable of a dragoons ability to jump. As an IC concept for 2.0 now that 5 years have passed, I've used that jumping abilty, a portion of his backstory (that he grew up in the mountains), and his ability as a smitty, to concoct a samurai-esque mobile greatsword-wielding warrior.

No it's not like anything in any other game, it's just a conglomeration of skills I like to employ in current rp.

Another form I enjoy is your typical Paladin. Which is basically a combination of Paladin, White Mage, and pre-WHM Conjurer.

Okay, let me explain. In early 1.0, Conjurer was the wielder of /all/ the elemental abilities. Different dev team, different vision. So Myllor, being astrally alligned (Wind, Fire, Lightning) has skill in those three elements. Now Lightning and fire are Thaumaturge spells, of which Myllor is not. I have used them in the past, and still plan on using them. Fire less so.

This became a rant about a couple of different things, but the:

TL;DR: Your concept is only important to you and your friends. Try to follow the established stuff when interacting with new people, but ultimately feel free to use that flaming whip that you ignited with your Fists of Flame (MNK ability maybe not sure if it exists anymore...?). There are some things you just should not do, like stretching the lore and having/knowing how to gunblade/magitek tools of war, but this is ultimately different from person to person.

TL;DR TL;DR: As long as it fits the lore, is fun, and is not god-moding(Which is my experience with gunblades/magitek wmds. lol)

Y'sehr · **07-03-2013, 08:14 AM**

(07-03-2013, 02:09 AM)Myal Wrote: I'm not saying that he'd be ridiculously slow with a dagger. I'm saying that he'd be slower. And that he doesn't really have any reason to do so, considering that knives have served him well.

NFL players learn MMA to gain edge in the field, but would a skill in axe-swinging lend anything to a knife fight? You said that an MMA athlete outperform others who only train in one particular style, but aren't they all hand-to-hand combat? Wouldn't a person who is skilled in sword arts be better served in learning other various sword styles rather than suddenly picking up a lance?

Bear in mind that I have nothing against those who want a character that's proficient in multiple weapons, especially if it's related to their livelihood. I'm just explaining the rationale behind a character who prefer to just hone their skill with a single weapon.

Getting stronger muscles wouldn't actually make him slower with a dagger. Stronger muscles usually makes you faster. If you learn to whip around something twice as big at speed, grabbing something light is usually much easier! I think the point to be made is that different weapons are generally used differently, and the styles don't overlap as much.

That isn't to say you gain nothing. Learning to use an axe proficiently is beneficial when fighting against other people who are using an axe. Knowing how a weapon works can help you fend against it. You could always just knife fight against axemen and learn that way, but situations for formal instruction are usually helpful!

As to specialization, this game is unique in that each weapon is a "class", and each class is a specialist. Other games have classes that are a kind of warrior, and that warrior has a variety of proficient weapons to specialize in or not. Depending on a character's background, it might make more or less sense to specialize. Someone who had a single weapon on the road or grew up in a very specific school or tradition might be more inclined to use a single weapon, or your average person who picks one up. Someone who is in the military is probably more likely to pick up multiple weapons as part of training. If you ever lose your weapon on the field, knowing how to use whatever you can pick up is handy.

So I think both arguments are valid - they are just different concerns to different types of characters, and doing either one makes as much sense as the other. Except the muscle thing. I think having stronger muscles makes you stronger at physical things. Flexibility might be different if you don't stretch enough while working out...

Sorry to butt in. I just like the discussion.

Ashren Dotharl · **07-03-2013, 08:30 AM**

(07-03-2013, 07:48 AM)Myllor Wrote: There are some things people will generally frown at you for, like (off the top of my head) whipping out two gun-blades, and fighting like a legatus on meth suddenly. To me this shouts "THIS GUYS THE ENEMY!" ICly, but OOCly, I might just feel like this person is making their character concept over-powered.

I may eat my words if SE releases gunblades for a class, but I personally feel like this is one of those things that is just outside the limits.

We're already getting access to Magitek Mechs in 2.0, a gunblade class doesn't seem like too far of a stretch, perhaps as Garlean deserters (much like Cid). Engineer maybe? Who knows.

Curtis West · **07-03-2013, 01:30 PM**

(07-03-2013, 02:09 AM)Myal Wrote:
(07-02-2013, 11:34 PM)Curtis West Wrote: 1) Seeing as how most of the activities have some sort of fighting involved when outside of the city, would many characters opt for "I am just an explorer" role that specifically excludes them from combat of any sort? I agree that a warrior of high ability will likely be all of those things you outlined, but they'd be foolish not to know how to kill somehow, with their life on the line and all. Given at how dangerous the world can be outside the city limits, an untrained or even a character of average fighting ability can get pwned for good. When I try to put myself in the shoes of my character, it's often a life or death situation (which is why he didn't rush off to fight the Empire like everyone else at the end of 1.0, afraid to die) when faced with the forces of Eorzea... I have had trouble putting away the fact that it's a game and my character can't really die.

Frodo was also a main hero of the whole story, which I'd argue probably doesn't apply to every character in XIV. Think of the side characters, or the other hundreds of people who died in those epic battles. That's likely a better comparison! lol

Sure, untrained people would have higher chances to die in this dangerous world, but I'm sure that the majority still survive. Else how could society persevere? Sure there are hundreds of people who died in epic battles, but surely hundreds survive, too? Does that mean that all hundreds of them are battle experts?

That's the point about Frodo, though. Our character is the main hero of our own story. There could be many reasons why a character could survive mortal, dangerous odds without resorting to "they're just a natural born warrior", just like Frodo. And anyway, Merry and Pippin survived, too.

(07-02-2013, 11:34 PM)Curtis West Wrote: With this in mind, a character wielding a knife is likely quicker than if he was holding an axe, but neither of those skills impair the other. Growing lean muscle doesn't equal being ridiculously slow with a dagger. Both of these activities (as well as any fighting in general) are short-burst, high intensity, and anaerobic. Basically as far as one's body, there is no difference. The only difference is in skill with the weapon... which we are not taking into consideration here, because this is about potential ability.

I'm not saying that he'd be ridiculously slow with a dagger. I'm saying that he'd be slower. And that he doesn't really have any reason to do so, considering that knives have served him well.

NFL players learn MMA to gain edge in the field, but would a skill in axe-swinging lend anything to a knife fight? You said that an MMA athlete outperform others who only train in one particular style, but aren't they all hand-to-hand combat? Wouldn't a person who is skilled in sword arts be better served in learning other various sword styles rather than suddenly picking up a lance?

Bear in mind that I have nothing against those who want a character that's proficient in multiple weapons, especially if it's related to their livelihood. I'm just explaining the rationale behind a character who prefer to just hone their skill with a single weapon.

1) Society would survive because not everyone "adventures" and does the super dangerous things our characters do. You can imagine cities full of people who do not go out and dungeon crawl. PCs (imo) are a small percentage of a small percentage of the population, the ones who actually survive dangerous encounters - aka above average warriors. I think the LotR analogy is getting too confusing for me... Frodo was perhaps more lucky than skilled, but was surrounded by the BEST warriors pretty much, no? Also, he didn't go out of the Shire by his own choice and when he did he had one specific "quest." I don't think most people play MMOs like that.

2) I'd think there are plenty of reasons for developing skills outside of just the one, as others have mentioned. Also, the idea that he will get slower with a dagger is not really true... because both activities are the same as far as muscle use goes. Again, I am specifically NOT talking about skill here, or if the person's skill with the dagger will deplete due to focusing on the axe.

I'm pretty much disassociating any particular weapon or discipline, and focusing on the athletic ability of the characters. Skill is very subjective and can vary due to a myriad of reasons, there is really no point to discuss it. The idea that someone is "good" at Paladin but not good with a lance (in my opinion) is merely a fact of them not using a lance (less skill/experience). It's not that they are naturally worse at it, given they are talented and/or hard working warriors.

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RP and multi-classing

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes