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Velkyron · **09-03-2013, 12:33 PM**

Ah...this thread. Â I was wondering when something of this topic would show up. Â Because it is a very tricky thing to really come to a general consensus.

In my experience, I have to agree with the OP: what makes a character special is usually the character themselves; not necessarily what they can do. Â Initially, I thought it was the other way around. Â That is, I had characters who were unbelievably OP, but I did make sure they followed the setting they were in and ultimately fit. Â They just were a bit spotlight grabbing in many respects. Â However, that does not mean you can't have the 'special'. Â I know Shuck will be one of the first to argue that such things are superfluous, and I agree in many respects. Â But there are exceptions, and here's one of mine.

When I made the transition from roleplaying on forums to MMOs, my perspective immediately changed, as I was able to see people making, writing, and roleplaying characters in real time, which made things pop out more and made my own flaws as a writer all the more apparent. Â The character I had written was noticeably OP, even for the setting he was in. Â But, at the same time, there was much about the character I liked, in terms of what shaped him to be the person he was and what could potentially change that character. Â So, I stuck with him with the intent of seeing him through to see what happened.

Now, of all the characters I've made, he was (and still is by far) the strongest character I had written. Â Sure, part of it was the fantasy of it all; I'm as self-indulgent as most any other human being. Â But I also know people read about characters like this to {also} feel empowered or to escape in a fantasy. Â So, my focus shifted from the initial idea of toning him down to instead making him relatable to an audience or other RPers, and that meant focusing on the person he was, not that he could level a city in a few hours (not that he ever would, mind you).

As I did so, what he did became less and less important and only really showed up when plot demanded it, and it was usually rigorously challenged because of how I played the character, so there was rarely ever a case of "Swing fist, enemy destroyed, world saved". Â What instead took precedence was the character. Â Why he did the things he did. Â Why he cared about others in the first place. Â How he saw the world. Â How he viewed what he could do. Â His fears. Â His desires. Â His vices. Â All of these things.

And what ended up happening was making a character that would have been fine without the crazy OP crap. Â But, his character was also built AROUND said OP crap. Â It wasn't like "eh, whatever." Â What he did terrified him, excited him. Â It made him very wary to touch people or even interact with them. Â I mean, when you can crunch a car door inward by lightly tapping it, you'd be afraid to give someone a handshake, let alone hug them.

So much of his development was based on him discovering himself, showing that even though he was immensely powerful, he was just as human as the rest of us. Â He had insecurities, and most importantly, he wasn't afraid to reach out for help. Â Many thought he was being weak. Â But the people that extended their hands back, knowing full well he could accidentally hurt him, became his closest allies. Â And the supposed 'good people' that snuffed him showed their true colors in reflection when, despite all of his fears, he wore them on his sleeve.

And that's my experience with characters like this. Â I'm the kind of guy who can see how Superman can be a compelling character. Â It's hard, and it requires a different perspective, but it CAN be done. Â It's why you have some 'good' comic book writers and 'bad' ones. Â Of course, those terms have to be used sparingly, as such things are subjective.

Now, as for THIS setting in particular, yeah. Â MOST of us are playing the roles of adventurers. Â But some of us (like myself) are playing the guy who wants to live a normal life, only to be continuously be reeled in by the fates with a large NOPE and smacking him into the wide world. Â He's got some bit of magic in him, both literal and figurative, that he refuses to accept he has. Â He says he likes the quiet. Â He says he likes safe. Â But in the end he's restless, and secretly he hopes his life means something outside of being the silversmith he became.

And that's the springboard for Velkyron's character (yes, I know, non-roe name. Â There's a reason though, so shush).

For the record? Â Velky here got a -5 on that test. Â He's not an anti-sue by any means. Â He just has some pretty nasty faults and issues. Â And unlike the aforementioned character, he's not as open about them, though he hides it well. Â It'll be an interesting change of pace for when I'll actually be able to log in. Â Maybe I should sing a song about that...

synaesthetic · **09-03-2013, 12:40 PM**

The Sue test was an amusing diversion. Aeriyn scored an 8 as a character. I suspect most of my characters would score low, since my characters generally tend to be fairly normal but skilled women who carry around big bags of issues.

The best way I've discovered to avoid Sue-ness in a character is to write them interesting rather than special and write them as people rather than idealized paragons.

erosskye · **09-03-2013, 12:42 PM**

Amazing read! Â Great outlook on the world of role-playing and character design. Â Thumbsup

Asyria · **09-03-2013, 01:14 PM**

I scored -5Â on the Sue test... and I did it with all 4 characters combined.
I guess they're all within pretty average for the setting. Tongue

LilMomoshi · **09-03-2013, 01:28 PM**

YAY! Discussion happened!

While I'm thinking of it, another thought, in relation to RP and game mechanics.

I've always taken the approach, in terms of power of my character and the skills they have, of directly relating this to the game. If they can't cast it in game, they can't cast it in RP. If it's a spell outside of their class (which, granted, will require some self-restrictions in this game) then they can't use it. Level isn't related to power, but it certainly is to skill and study, then.

How do you wonderful people approach this?

Mewnie · **09-03-2013, 01:45 PM**

I'm sure we will soon (or already have) characters with robot arms and magitech eyes, as well as escaped demons from hell who are secretly disguised as mortals but can't seem to resist the urge to flaunt their origins openly (and with as many witnesses as possible, uuuuuuugh) and other assorted stupidity.

I'm finding these days, to make a 'special' character, you just RP as an average person doing what they can in a fantasy world. Just being an adventurer is pretty special as it is, since you have to be a little crazy to go outside the safety of the cities for what could amount to nothing more than personal glory :p

I think that's been lost on a lot of the roleplayers I've seen the past few years.

(09-03-2013, 01:28 PM)LilMomoshi Wrote: While I'm thinking of it, another thought, in relation to RP and game mechanics.

I've always taken the approach, in terms of power of my character and the skills they have, of directly relating this to the game. If they can't cast it in game, they can't cast it in RP. If it's a spell outside of their class (which, granted, will require some self-restrictions in this game) then they can't use it. Level isn't related to power, but it certainly is to skill and study, then.

How do you wonderful people approach this?

Good point!

I've never treated levels as a direct measure of power- more of a general gauge of the character's experience. Granted, with FFXIV's class system, this means I'd have to apply it on a more class to class basis.

Hmm~ I suppose it'd be how comfortable they be discussing matters related to said class. Tajha is just starting out as a THM, so she's only be able to recall only the most basic stuff. Granted, I doubt a lot of us are master wizards or blacksmiths in real life so a bit of.. ah, bullshitting, would probably be in order :p

(edit edit edit: I apologize for any typos- posting before coffee is not recommended)

Maqali Qulaan · **09-03-2013, 01:46 PM**

(09-03-2013, 01:28 PM)LilMomoshi Wrote: YAY! Discussion happened!

While I'm thinking of it, another thought, in relation to RP and game mechanics.

I've always taken the approach, in terms of power of my character and the skills they have, of directly relating this to the game. If they can't cast it in game, they can't cast it in RP. If it's a spell outside of their class (which, granted, will require some self-restrictions in this game) then they can't use it. Level isn't related to power, but it certainly is to skill and study, then.

How do you wonderful people approach this?

I tend to take a looser approach myself, as in not intimately tying game mechanics to character ability. To me, telling a good story is more important than how many hours I've spent leveling my character to get such-and-such ability.

That said, I try not to ignore the framework of the game either. To (again) use my character S'janna as an example, she has some magical talent that (until recently) was extremely untutored. Class-wise, she is/was an arcanist, and in RP demonstrated a pretty pathetic ability to heal, and a sort of unfocused offensive magic. She had no ability to summon (as she'd not been formally trained). These abilities make sense in the scope of the arcanist class- we get a heal and an 'untyped' attack pretty much right off.

In that regard, too, I played up the fact that she was doing this without any sort of focus, which is why those abilities were so meager in her hands. I guess that's ultimately how I'm sort-of representing the different classes/abilities as they relate to S'janna using them- different foci are required to perform different effects, or at least to perform them to any meaningful degree. It's my explanation for why S'janna was flinging around heals and ruins in battle one day, but when she left her tome at home and was carrying a bow, her magic was conspicuously absent- a bow is not a good focus for combat magic, right? It's not like she suddenly forgot her magic, it was simply that it was pretty much useless without a focus.

I hope that makes some sense, and wasn't too rambling.

LilMomoshi · **09-03-2013, 01:48 PM**

(09-03-2013, 01:45 PM)Mewnie Wrote: I'm sure we will soon (or already have) characters with robot arms and magitech eyes, as well as escaped demons from hell who are secretly disguised as mortals but can't seem to resist the urge to flaunt their origins openly (and with as many witnesses as possible, uuuuuuugh) and other assorted stupidity.

I'm finding these days, to make a 'special' character, you just RP as an average person doing what they can in a fantasy world. Just being an adventurer is petty special as it is, since you have to be a little crazy to go outside the safety of the cities for what could amount to nothing more than personal glory :p

I think that's been lost on a lot of the roleplayers I've seen the past few years.

Yup. This is pretty much exactly how I feel, but far shorter.

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-03-2013, 02:06 PM**

(09-03-2013, 01:45 PM)Mewnie Wrote: I'm sure we will soon (or already have) characters with robot arms and magitech eyes-

So far I've known two characters with 'robot arms' to some degree or at least prosthetics that they had some explanation for. Neither of those people seemed particularly stupid, in fact I think both were pretty well liked, nor would I have lumped them in with 'escaped demons'. Generalizing doesn't do any good, really. I also don't see an issue with magitech eyes-- Maybe I'm too used to fantasy settings with alternative methods of seeing though. If you sacrifice your physical vision in order to see heat or magic or something like that, then if your method looks legitimate, I'll accept it and it'll likely be the first time I ever heard it in this setting. If you were -already- blind and there -may- be some way to use what's in the world to your advantage to give you some semblance of sight (assuming you're not an Elezen, and according to some people Miqo'te ears won't help ya) or some other sense that can help, then why not?

Siobhain is a paladin, mostly my first real 'tanking' character other than my Orc warrior. I let the class I choose help me develop my character's personality-- or rather I develop her personality around it. She is strongly religious, naive at points, but this depth of her faith keeps her running around and even fuels her limited capacity for healing. I'm debating whether to delve into integrating any paladin reinforcement spells or chants or hymns or runic markings or -whatever- they use, in some small way, over time to allow her to develop as she needs. So far, she's a glorified brute with room to improve but I have no intentions of starting her off as a superb healer or a weapon-master. I'd like to actually learn some things from some people over time, or at least evolve what she knows to a greater extent. Maybe someone will teach her to wear make up or ride Chocobos? Anything can happen.

I like to invest my time, finding the gear I want to wear for RP or getting my levels in. I started out doing RP-PVP and I lost the majority of my duels, but if there is one thing in the RP community that bothers me more than ANYTHING else-- it's the tendency of people (not even just low-level people) to shoot their mouth off because they can, offend a ton of people, and then stand there and virtually laugh at the fact that as long as they don't accept a duel or attack, text-based or otherwise, it's not going to happen. Being on an RP-PVP server where dueling was an integral part of dictating fights lessened that number considerably. I think there are very, very many well-read and intelligent RPers who don't fathom in the slightest that writing up a mouthy character with the refusal to back themselves up or even acknowledge the attacks they might earn is 1. Different from being trolled by random PVPers and people who are just wearing better gear than you and want to take that opportunity to make their character look better and 2. It's meta-gaming. That scary, scary word that I so despise because it's so quickly applied to a situation that doesn't sit well with a person or two-- taking something out of character (your personal unwillingness to risk your character's health or reputation + whatever aspects of yourself that you used to make a super abrasive character) and using it to influence what's happening in character.

People don't have to fight all the time or like PVP or grind for gear or even consider their classes and spells in RP if they don't want to; but it should never be an excuse for people to break that IC/OOC line or intentionally troll people ICly just because they refuse to acknowledge any form of repercussion for their character's actions.

I'll still grind the levels and the gear and the classes because I like my avatar in game to match my character as closely as possible. Also, because it feels like I'm misrepresenting my character by going in at a low level and asking to be treated like I'm a high level who's spent time wandering Eorzea and reading quests and working on my levels and gear without the intention of actually doing any of that.

LilMomoshi · **09-03-2013, 02:12 PM**

One of the things I like about this game so much, and I see it as the way around altering your character in certain ways (demonic, robotic, what have you) is the class system. We have the tool to ICly explain why we're able to do things beyond our normal class handed right to us. I for one intend to use that.

Mewnie · **09-03-2013, 02:18 PM**

(09-03-2013, 02:06 PM)Siobhain Wrote: So far I've known two characters with 'robot arms' to some degree or at least prosthetics that they had some explanation for. Neither of those people seemed particularly stupid, in fact I think both were pretty well liked, nor would I have lumped them in with 'escaped demons'. Generalizing doesn't do any good, really. I also don't see an issue with magitech eyes-- Maybe I'm too used to fantasy settings with alternative methods of seeing though. If you sacrifice your physical vision in order to see heat or magic or something like that, then if your method looks legitimate, I'll accept it and it'll likely be the first time I ever heard it in this setting. If you were -already- blind and there -may- be some way to use what's in the world to your advantage to give you some semblance of sight (assuming you're not an Elezen, and according to some people Miqo'te ears won't help ya) or some other sense that can help, then why not?

The thing I'm railing against is that this trope has become pretty much a running joke. When every other person is a cyborg, I think it's been run into the ground enough (and by your own admission, you have twoÂ characters who are this way already. I think you need an intervention :p)

This is only my personal experience that I'm really opining on- I just think that roleplayers need a little more, ah, restraint. Too many times they have their character lose an eye or a limb just cause it's cool and a robot part would be bad ass, but it doesn't really add anything of real substance to the character. It's just fluff.

synaesthetic · **09-03-2013, 02:19 PM**

(09-03-2013, 01:28 PM)LilMomoshi Wrote: YAY! Discussion happened!

While I'm thinking of it, another thought, in relation to RP and game mechanics.

I've always taken the approach, in terms of power of my character and the skills they have, of directly relating this to the game. If they can't cast it in game, they can't cast it in RP. If it's a spell outside of their class (which, granted, will require some self-restrictions in this game) then they can't use it. Level isn't related to power, but it certainly is to skill and study, then.

How do you wonderful people approach this?

For PvE purposes I intend to max Aeriyn out completely, but most of that stuff is extremely OOC.

For RP purposes, she is a black mage with some minor knowledge of arcanima (and has the ability to summon carby), mostly picked up while working with the assessors of Mealvaan's Gate. Because being a black mage also requires some knowledge of archery (likely for the cross-discipline focus it would yield), Aeriyn's reasonably skilled with a shortbow (about as much as any average Keeper of the Moon huntress would be).

So, while OOC Aeriyn would be 50 in everything, IC she's more like 60% black mage, 25% archer and 15% arcanist.

FreelanceWizard · **09-03-2013, 02:25 PM**

Wow, I totally missed getting on board with this thread. Smile

In general, I agree that PCs are, themselves, special, and that what makes a character intriguing has far more to do with who they are and how they act than what they can do. Being a realistic person with compelling motives, quirks, and opinions is the key to being an interesting character, regardless of what sort of power you wield. Naturally, that's how superheroes, including Superman, can be written compellingly. IMO, Superman is boring when Superman Solves Every Problem Because He's So Cool And The Writers Love Him. Superman is interesting when the writing focuses on his alienation, the consequences of power unbridled, the "Stranger in a Strange Land" angle, and other flaws and humanizing elements in his character.

Also, I'm totally glad the OP linked the Universal Sue Test. That's a terribly useful device for judging a new character concept, though as it mentions, one must be careful to consider the context of both setting and group dynamic when using it. (For what it's worth, L'yhta scores a 4 on the test. For all her bravado, she's pretty mundane.)

(09-03-2013, 01:28 PM)LilMomoshi Wrote: I've always taken the approach, in terms of power of my character and the skills they have, of directly relating this to the game. If they can't cast it in game, they can't cast it in RP. If it's a spell outside of their class (which, granted, will require some self-restrictions in this game) then they can't use it. Level isn't related to power, but it certainly is to skill and study, then.

How do you wonderful people approach this?

Personally, I don't assert power in RP that I don't have in game. L'yhta's talented and "book smart," but lacking in expertise (thus her relatively low level), and she's more skilled at conjury than arcanima or thaumaturgy. Thus, her level spread is 21 CNJ/16 ACN/6 THM. When she starts getting towards 50 in all three of those Disciplines, then I'll start saying that she has the actual skill to back up her boasts. She has no levels in Disciplines of War because she has no expertise in those areas. So, for me, level is directly related to power, and I don't level things my character wouldn't be good at -- though there's compelling arguments for other approaches, too. The important thing in RP is for all parties to have an agreement on the power levels involved.

Ildur · **09-03-2013, 02:33 PM**

(09-03-2013, 01:28 PM)LilMomoshi Wrote: YAY! Discussion happened!

While I'm thinking of it, another thought, in relation to RP and game mechanics.

I've always taken the approach, in terms of power of my character and the skills they have, of directly relating this to the game. If they can't cast it in game, they can't cast it in RP. If it's a spell outside of their class (which, granted, will require some self-restrictions in this game) then they can't use it. Level isn't related to power, but it certainly is to skill and study, then.

How do you wonderful people approach this?

I do not think that it is wise to make your character power or skill directly related to the game mechanics. While it is true that it provides a certain common be for everyone to measure their power, it does not always work on the consistency department. Let us assume that my characteer is a proficient swordman, veteran of many battles and relatively old. But, for whatever reason, I do not level that character up beyond level 15. Then, due to reasons, he gets in a fight with someone else who happens to be level 50. How do I explain in a consistent manner with my backstory that he was little more than a piece of cake to defeat? Or how does the young level 50 justify that he raised from no skill at all (level 1) to being the best of the best (level 50) in such a short time? The only way to do so is to fall into Mary Sue-ism.
Additionaly, when magic is involved, using only spells that are allowed mechanically will result in cornering yourself and closing the door to interesting plot developments. Not to mention modt if not all of the magic skills are combat oriented as far as gameplay is concerned.

The best way to use magic spells and keep them lore-friendly is to see what is possible within lore. If the storyline shows that some odd mage can summon a demon from the void, then summoning demons from the void is stablished as possible in the universe. This does not mean it should be easy; only that it can be done.
Another thing you can do is take the mechanic skills and extrapolate them. If your thaumaturge can cast a fireball, he probably can cast a small flame to light the candles of his library. If your arcanist can use mathematics to cause biological damage to his enemies, then maybe he can give someone a cold with it. Or you could go bigger: if the thaumaturge can cast a fireballs, maybe he could cause a massive explosion, strong enough to level a whole building. Or to freeze it.
The problem with moving spells up in scale is that you have to come up with disadvantages. Maybe to level a whole building in one cast he has to prepare the spell with a ritual. Get reagents that are not easily obtainable. And then of course you have what other charactes might do to stop your thaumaturge. Maybe a conjurerr could prepare a ritual to cast a Turned Up To Eleven Protect spell to counter it, quiring his own long preparation.
You cannot do any of that if you stick to game mechanics as the one and only source of what is possible.

This leaves us with a problem: how do we measure character power, level or skill? How do we compare it to other characters for the purposes of roleplaying a fight?
The only solution is for the players to be on the same page, for them to have the same goal (storytelling), to know about each other's characters (hopefully by having roleplayed together before)... But more importantly to communicate and to use common sense.
I have found that using that last thing is ussually enough to warrant friendly interactions wiht everyone. Though there is always the problem of people who do not follow it. But then you try to communicate and come up with a resolution that will satisfy everyone.

LilMomoshi · **09-03-2013, 02:53 PM**

The way I look at it (regarding level as skill) is that I have more practice, and more tools at my disposal. For instance, let's pit two mages against each other.

Now, a fireball is a fireball. If someone flings fire into your face, it burns. Lets say the less experienced mage does this. If it his the other mage in the face, that fire will still burn, just like a sword will still cut, or an arrow will still pierce. However, this more practiced and learned mage has more tools at his disposal (levels/skills). He can, if he sees it coming, perform a counterspell, step aside, whatever.

This allows an even playing field, but also takes into account the progress a character has made in their studies (or respective class/classes). A spell is a spell, a blade is a blade, but the skill you hold with it and the abilities you have at your disposal are based purely on how much time you've put into honing them.

Now, for the grind-to-50 characters, I fully agree that no character actually makes this leap in a week. If I'm grinding it out, I never display my characters skill until they hit that level, and can live up to it. I'll never master thaumaturgy in a week, but if you didn't know my character was proficient in it to begin with, their skill might have been practiced for some length of time beyond my actual leveling.

Is it a little dance, and a delicate balance? Sure. But it allows for a character to grow and progress, and never hold power beyond the scope of others without good reasoning behind it. If my character is powerful, they should have to earn that power. And their awesome little black hat.

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