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Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-03-2013, 02:54 PM**

(09-03-2013, 02:18 PM)Mewnie Wrote:
(09-03-2013, 02:06 PM)Siobhain Wrote: So far I've known two characters with 'robot arms' to some degree or at least prosthetics that they had some explanation for. Neither of those people seemed particularly stupid, in fact I think both were pretty well liked, nor would I have lumped them in with 'escaped demons'. Generalizing doesn't do any good, really. I also don't see an issue with magitech eyes-- Maybe I'm too used to fantasy settings with alternative methods of seeing though. If you sacrifice your physical vision in order to see heat or magic or something like that, then if your method looks legitimate, I'll accept it and it'll likely be the first time I ever heard it in this setting. If you were -already- blind and there -may- be some way to use what's in the world to your advantage to give you some semblance of sight (assuming you're not an Elezen, and according to some people Miqo'te ears won't help ya) or some other sense that can help, then why not?

The thing I'm railing against is that this trope has become pretty much a running joke. When every other person is a cyborg, I think it's been run into the ground enough (and by your own admission, you have twoÂ characters who are this way already. I think you need an intervention :p)

This is only my personal experience that I'm really opining on- I just think that roleplayers need a little more, ah, restraint. Too many times they have their character lose an eye or a limb just cause it's cool and a robot part would be bad ass, but it doesn't really add anything of real substance to the character. It's just fluff.

Actually, by my admission, I -know- two people with characters like this already. ^.^ My characters are wholly intact, s'far as I know, but if two people out of however many members of the RPC exist with character wikis so far requires intervention then maybe I should reconsider anything I thought I knew about percentages and fractions. Doesn't seem to quite make 'every other person' but then, math isn't my strongest suit, I guess.

Maybe there's part of me that wants to see characters that are self-labeled as proficient fighters, swordsmen, assassins and such actually -fight- once in a while in RP and see how many chunks they can carve out of each other to warrant such 'bad ass' maiming. I'd love to lop a guy's arm off and see how he handles it or get Sio's eye poked out in the midst of some skirmish with some stranger despite all efforts made to prevent such maiming. I could see, though, why coming in with a character who's already Edward Elric'd could seem a bit exasperating to -someone-. I dunno. Sounds like typical smarm to me.

LilMomoshi · **09-03-2013, 02:54 PM**

And of course, if another character is "more skilled" than them, it's made apparent in my lack of tools compared to theirs.

Navarre · **09-03-2013, 02:55 PM**

Hmm, interesting question/thread. Usually I strive for my characters to be unique and interesting rather than special. Special has the connotation that the character is better or matters more to the world in some way. Having unique and interesting as a goal keeps your flights of fancy bound within the transactional nature of RP.
For example, Jehanne suffers from palsy brought on by excessive exposure to aether. She has to regulate it through a balm and potion, and by checking her spell-casting. This condition is the major wall blocking her from becoming the sorceress she wants to be and most of her decisions and actions are informed by it. Does this make her special? Perhaps, being that there probably not a lot of examples of disability due to aether exposure, though I doubt she wouldn't be the only one. It does, I hope, make her unique and interesting to others, and gives a predictable aspect of her character for them to latch onto. Now this 'unique' aspect of her character in no way implies that she is overly important to world events. All it does is explain her motivations for participating in the world: Why join the arcanists guild? Perhaps their form of magic would be less stressful. Why join the alchemists guild? Find better medicines for her conditions. Why join a free company? Networking to find those who may have insight into growing as a magic user despite her limitations. And all of these give her better reason to seek out other PCs, and to react to them in certain ways. Her feelings toward other spellcasters may fluctuate between admiration, curiosity, and jealousy. She may even prefer the company of armsmen because they don't remind her of her limitations. And in turn her reactions will give other players something to react to.

So the goal shouldn't be 'special', perhaps the word should be banished because of all its unfortunate implications. Make your character unique so it is pleasing to you, and interesting so it is pleasing to others.

FreelanceWizard · **09-03-2013, 02:57 PM**

(09-03-2013, 02:33 PM)Ildur Wrote: Additionaly, when magic is involved, using only spells that are allowed mechanically will result in cornering yourself and closing the door to interesting plot developments. Not to mention modt if not all of the magic skills are combat oriented as far as gameplay is concerned.

We actually had a discussion about that on Mysterium's forums recently, since as a guild of mages, coming to consensus on what we can plausibly do in RP is sort of important. Smile

Our consensus was largely that you can scale down effects, but you can't change their essential nature. So, if you can cast Fire, you can light a pipe. If you can cast Fluid Aura, you can create water. If you can cast Bio, you can afflict someone with a temporary biological handicap (nausea, vertigo, blurred vision, etc.). Note that I say you "can" do this; since we know magic in the setting is spell-based, most of us agreed that you'd have to devise some sort of spell and expend the narrative effort to devise it ICly. Your Discipline shows you the boundaries of what you can do, but you have to devise the means. For us, this works, because it gives a solid justification for magical research and training outside of the guilds proper.

That's really just the baseline, though -- the consensus of what's nominally okay, bearing in mind usual consent rules. That said, could you scale up Flare to blow a building up? Scale up Miasma to inflict a horrific wasting curse? All of that would have to be decided and consented to by all the involved parties. Communication, as you mentioned, is always key!

LilMomoshi · **09-03-2013, 03:20 PM**

(09-03-2013, 02:57 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(09-03-2013, 02:33 PM)Ildur Wrote: Additionaly, when magic is involved, using only spells that are allowed mechanically will result in cornering yourself and closing the door to interesting plot developments. Not to mention modt if not all of the magic skills are combat oriented as far as gameplay is concerned.

We actually had a discussion about that on Mysterium's forums recently, since as a guild of mages, coming to consensus on what we can plausibly do in RP is sort of important. Our consensus was largely that you can scale down effects, but you can't change their essential nature. So, if you can cast Fire, you can light a pipe. If you can cast Fluid Aura, you can create water. If you can cast Bio, you can afflict someone with a temporary biological handicap (nausea, vertigo, blurred vision, etc.). Note that I say you "can" do this; since we know magic in the setting is spell-based, most of us agreed that you'd have to devise some sort of spell and expend the narrative effort to devise it ICly. Your Discipline shows you the boundaries of what you can do, but you have to devise the means. For us, this works, because it gives a solid justification for magical research and training outside of the guilds proper.

That's really just the baseline, though -- the consensus of what's nominally okay, bearing in mind usual consent rules. That said, could you scale up Flare to blow a building up? Scale up Miasma to inflict a horrific wasting curse? All of that would have to be decided and consented to by all the involved parties. Communication, as you mentioned, is always key!

I like this. Scaling down, of course, is always within reason. Scaling up is dangerous, especially in a game like this. I mean, we've got limit breaks. BOOM! Meteor comes down on somethings head. Am I ever going to pull that in an RP fight with another player? Absolutely not. There's a time and a place for the big, draining, high-powered moment, and to me that place is away from an RP situation where having that kind of power, whatever drawbacks you may suffer, tips the scales heavily in your favor.

Ildur · **09-03-2013, 04:16 PM**

(09-03-2013, 02:53 PM)LilMomoshi Wrote: (...)
This allows an even playing field, but also takes into account the progress a character has made in their studies (or respective class/classes). A spell is a spell, a blade is a blade, but the skill you hold with it and the abilities you have at your disposal are based purely on how much time you've put into honing them.
(...)
Is it a little dance, and a delicate balance? Sure. But it allows for a character to grow and progress, and never hold power beyond the scope of others without good reasoning behind it. If my character is powerful, they should have to earn that power. And their awesome little black hat.

Except you are not measuring the character: you are measuring the player's time. That's not a good reason to have your character be more powerful or as powerful as anyone else's. It's just an arbitrary gate placed upon the player.
Consider: what if I can't play more than a few hours per week? What if I dedicate them mostly to roleplay, so my in-game level is pretty low? Or what if I have multiple characters? What if I spend most of my time leveling my warrior, but prefer roleplay with my lalafell eft-hunter? Should I be locked out of playing and exploring certain character concepts because, for whatever reason, I cannot dedicate enough time to gameplay? Should I make them all a wimp until I can get enough time to get to the 'proper' level? Why would I waste time on that if, for example I don't like the class from a gameplay point of view ? Is my character's worth proportional somehow to the ammount of time I've spent running dungeons with him?

If you take into account the character level to measure their power, skill or knowledge, all you are doing is placing an arbitrary gate based on playing time. Not character development time, nor anything else time. Playing time that is directly proportional to the time the player has. You are not measuring the character's power: only the player's commitment with gameplay.

At the end, I think our disagreement comes from what our purpose is when we roleplay. For me, it is about cooperative storytelling. There's no reason why your character's in-game level should be proportional in some way to his in-story skills. If it's about the story, then you can have a character that is powerful during roleplay but level 6 in gameplay. Is it hard to balance? No. No it is not. You make a character that is sensible. You make sure to not use outrageous powers with people who you do not know or that you know to not be okay with those. You use common sense. You communicate. You do all this so that everyone can take a worthy part of a story worth telling. I prefer dealing with OOC arguments than to deal with an artificial and arbitrary barrier that measures the player's time.

Quote:There's a time and a place for the big, draining, high-powered moment, and to me that place is away from an RP situation where having that kind of power, whatever drawbacks you may suffer, tips the scales heavily in your favor.

Certainly using over-the-top spells or skills during random roleplay is a bit distasteful, but I don't agree that the time and place for those high-powered moments are away from roleplay situations. There's plenty of ways in which calling forth a meteor to whack someone in the head could come into play during roleplay.
For example, maybe I'm breaking into his underground inner sanctum and, because the party doesn't have time to get the keys to the door, decide that making a hole in the roof with a meteor is the best way.
Once again, and what I always say: common sense. Don't cast a meteor on someone's head because they looked at you funny in the tavern. Don't cast an highly contagious and deadly version of Virus on that one Roegadyn for calling you a milk-drinker. Basically, you don't do anything outrageously powerful when people (players) you don't know are involved, because you don't know what their threshold for power is.
Once you know those people, or maybe once you join a Free Company or a linkshell, you might find that they are okay. Or not. But for that you have to communicate. And that is, funnily enough, the second thing I always say.

Things that cannot be easily countered (either because of their scale or because of their nature) should require consent. Unless you are organizing an event for your guild/roleplay group: then you probabably have the way free to do all kinds of crazy stuff in the name of fun.

LilMomoshi · **09-03-2013, 04:26 PM**

My meaning on that last bit was more "Don't go dropping meteors on people".

I'd also like to add, this is really just how I approach it all. I know lots of people who disagree with me on many aspects, and I've also roleplayed with a lot of people who take a different approach. These are rules I've placed on myself, not the community as a whole.

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-03-2013, 04:54 PM**

I guess if one person were to sit there and try to excuse just how much of their day is filled by doing important RL things it would matter as much to anyone else as someone sitting there talking about how much time they invest in the game.Â

I agree, no, it shouldn't all be about levels and grinding because yes, then it does come back to my time versus your time and my priorities versus your priorities. Valid as that may be, that excuse shouldn't be, and doubtlessly is, used by people who literally roll a level 1 character and come in periodically, when they feel like it, just to tell other people how much better they are. It's offensive when your character is capped, it's -worse- when the person is fresh out of the starting quests and refuses to level. But if they choose to do it, that's fine-- It's just bothersome at times.

The reasonable defense of 'Don't let in-game mechanics dictate roleplay' is easily skewed into 'I'll do whatever I want because in-game mechanics don't count in roleplay' by people who, yes, might not have the time but also might not want to put forth the effort anyway. At that point, it's a glorified chat system, but you're paying -your- money to run around in it so who is anyone else to judge? It's not particularly hard to level, in fact it's beneficial for aesthetics and just to take a break from roleplaying; I'd rather deal with artificial -obstacles-, obstacles that could be overcome in time with motivation than getting in an OOC argument with someone about IC differences in perspective. Because, as we see many times in the threads, it hardly ever leads anywhere productive. But that's a personal preference and so my in game accomplishments and understandings only really help me-- I expect that someone will no doubt sit there and tell me how worthless I am for wasting time -actually playing the game-.

LilMomoshi · **09-03-2013, 05:12 PM**

(09-03-2013, 04:54 PM)Siobhain Wrote: The reasonable defense of 'Don't let in-game mechanics dictate roleplay' is easily skewed into 'I'll do whatever I want because in-game mechanics don't count in roleplay' by people who, yes, might not have the time but also might not want to put forth the effort anyway.

Â
This is kind of my problem with it, but I'm also speaking as someone who works full time, is headed back to college this fall... I know how time constraints can be. I just try to balance it as best I can, for my own reasons. I figure not everyone wants to do that, which is fine. Again, this is just my approach.

Clover · **09-03-2013, 05:24 PM**

I've said this before. I will never take level or equip into consideration when I RP. What matters is the story behind your character.

In the end, levels are just the result of the player's free time and/or willingness to spend all their time leveling up. Why should such an OOC detail matter ICly?
Likewise, even if my characters reach the max level, they'll still be normal girls you can beat more or less easily.

I saw a case of a 9 years old female character who wanted to be stronger than a 400 years old veteran High Commander from the army, simply because the little girl's player had spent day and night levelling her up, while the Commander's player lacked the time (and his time ingame was usually used to RP). Cases like that one are absolutely absurd.

LilMomoshi · **09-03-2013, 05:26 PM**

(09-03-2013, 05:24 PM)Clover Wrote: I saw a case of a 9 years old female character who wanted to be stronger than a 400 years old veteran High Commander from the army, simply because the little girl's player had spent day and night levelling her up, while the Commander's player lacked the time (and his time ingame was usually used to RP). Cases like that one are absolutely absurd.

Â I'll concede that point without blinking. I'm also bothered, however, when super low level characters run around with power beyond the scope of players who have put all that time into leveling. It can really go either way, good or bad.

Clover · **09-03-2013, 05:31 PM**

(09-03-2013, 05:26 PM)LilMomoshi Wrote:
(09-03-2013, 05:24 PM)Clover Wrote: I saw a case of a 9 years old female character who wanted to be stronger than a 400 years old veteran High Commander from the army, simply because the little girl's player had spent day and night levelling her up, while the Commander's player lacked the time (and his time ingame was usually used to RP). Cases like that one are absolutely absurd.

Â I'll concede that point without blinking. I'm also bothered, however, when super low level characters run around with power beyond the scope of players who have put all that time into leveling. It can really go either way, good or bad.

I thought that players who put time into levelling are interested on the game itself. I mean, you don't need to power level your character if you simply want to RP them. You only power level to play the game further. At least that's what I'm doing o.oa;
If a character tells me that they're uber powerful because of their past experiences, I personally will accept it and play along, no matter what their level is. That a character is lv.1 doesn't mean they were just born *sweatdrops*.

LilMomoshi · **09-03-2013, 05:36 PM**

(09-03-2013, 05:31 PM)Clover Wrote:
(09-03-2013, 05:26 PM)LilMomoshi Wrote:
(09-03-2013, 05:24 PM)Clover Wrote: I saw a case of a 9 years old female character who wanted to be stronger than a 400 years old veteran High Commander from the army, simply because the little girl's player had spent day and night levelling her up, while the Commander's player lacked the time (and his time ingame was usually used to RP). Cases like that one are absolutely absurd.

Â I'll concede that point without blinking. I'm also bothered, however, when super low level characters run around with power beyond the scope of players who have put all that time into leveling. It can really go either way, good or bad.
I thought that players who put time into levelling are interested on the game itself. I mean, you don't need to power level your character if you simply want to RP them. You only power level to play the game further. At least that's what I'm doing o.oa;
If a character tells me that they're uber powerful because of their past experiences, I personally will accept it and play along, no matter what their level is. That a character is lv.1 doesn't mean they were just born *sweatdrops*.

I wouldn't consider them just born, either. For my characters, it tends to mean they'er inexperienced, if they're IC. Again, these are rules I place for myself, not others. And if I'm out in the world, no matter what I'm doing, I'm probably IC. Questing or whatever. I'm killing little fuzzy things for level two, and I'm in character doing it (well, not in character level chasing, but you get the idea).

FreelanceWizard · **09-03-2013, 05:37 PM**

Of course, if you ignore mechanics in your RP, you end up ignoring the lore that's represented by those mechanics. For instance, that magic in Eorzea is spell-based and mediated by tools is largely represented by the mechanics, even if it shows up obliquely from time to time in quest dialogue (such as the level 15 Conjurer quest). Gladiators are trained in one-handed weapons and shields. Garleans are usually pretty tough guys and Coerthas is quite dangerous compared to, say, the Nine Ivies in the Shroud (represented by the levels of the mobs).

It's a delicate balance, I think, to honor what the mechanics tell us about the world and to let people play the concepts they want without having to "put in the time" to get to play them. Personally, in the absence of other factors, I tend to view it as a scale of plausibility. A level 1 character, without agreement by all parties in advance, just isn't going to smack around someone with 20+ levels on them; however, when we're talking about characters within relatively close levels (10 level or less difference), it's a lot less clear-cut. Of course, circumstances vary. An NPC villain in a story line might be low level just because it's an alt, but its "RP power" might be very high for the group involved in the story, because they consent to that. Someone who's very physically strong could easily take down L'yhta by surprise regardless of her level, because she's purely a spellcaster -- her RP power in physical combat is essentially nil, even if she's a level 50 Thaumaturge and you're a level 1 Gladiator and in strict PvP, you'd be incinerated before your first attack.

As usual, respectful discussion in advance is key, but be prepared for a negative response OOC if your RP power far outstrips your level and you don't have a good narrative justification for it and its presence in the scene. This is doubly true in conflict RP, where the resolution mechanic may turn to a PvP duel if all players agree... and level very much matters in that instance.

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-03-2013, 05:48 PM**

Honestly, I haven't seen a single case of a child (ICly) stating (oocly) they want to be stronger than a High Commander simply because they spent more time playing the game. In fact, the closest thing to any example of a person using their in-game play time, etc. to influence their character's standing in the world was to say 1. 'I've been playing so and so years so I was there through so and so wars' or 2. 'Well I got so and so gear because I worked for it and if we're going to duel, I'm going to wear it because it's IC for me'. I -have- seen 'child characters' treated as super-powered, sometimes half-demons, but incidentally, none of those people have ever been level capped.

Ever.

My experience is somewhat limited, however.Â

I agree with Freelance that ignoring the mechanics can lead to ignoring the lore that they're based on. Doesn't, by any means, mean you -must- implement each and every single thing absolutely to the letter; but common sense -can- be applied to that too, doesn't have to be one or the other.

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