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Trigonxv · **09-29-2013, 02:32 AM**

Well Â I am trying to create a counter measure for all this at least in balmung if there be endgame geared players who wish to help other players in their endgame progression drop by the linkshell I recently created Knightsof unity no members yet but hope to fill the ranks with like minded individuals

Ashren Dotharl · **09-29-2013, 02:36 AM**

SE has two stances on the issue that I've seen so far. Regarding the sabotages the consider it as a form of harassment, so taking part in this kind of behavior will likely lead to a ban. Regarding the actual selling of runs, they have stated it is not against the TOS and it is entirely up to the players if they want to spend the gil to get carried, however that being said there has been at least one instance where someone bought gil through RMT and used said gil to pay for a Titan kill, both the person buying the gil and the person he used the gil to pay ended up banned so it's sort of do at your own risk kind of thing.

LandStander · **09-29-2013, 03:36 AM**

This is my first time hearing about this. I personally am not far enough to participate in things like this because crafting is so damn addicting, but my FC usually runs it with FC members or LS members. I suggest that to avoid events like this you all might want to do the same. I know there is a RP LS that is for dungeons called Balmung's Finest if anyone wanted to make sure to steer clear of crap like this.

LiadansWhisper · **09-29-2013, 05:15 AM**

(09-29-2013, 02:36 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: SE has two stances on the issue that I've seen so far. Regarding the sabotages the consider it as a form of harassment, so taking part in this kind of behavior will likely lead to a ban. Regarding the actual selling of runs, they have stated it is not against the TOS and it is entirely up to the players if they want to spend the gil to get carried, however that being said there has been at least one instance where someone bought gil through RMT and used said gil to pay for a Titan kill, both the person buying the gil and the person he used the gil to pay ended up banned so it's sort of do at your own risk kind of thing.

The most frustrating thing is that they're being so damn inconsistent with how they deal with griefers. A lot of people are getting responses to their tickets basically saying, "We have no rules as to whether or not someone has to actually do their job in an instance they queued into." Â So it seems like people can get away with doing anything they want - or nothing at all - because Square is refusing to do anything about their behavior and won't give us a vote to kick button.

DAISHI · **09-29-2013, 05:26 AM**

I'm failing to see the problem with selling a spot in a hard Titan run.

LiadansWhisper · **09-29-2013, 05:32 AM**

(09-29-2013, 05:26 AM)DAISHI Wrote: I'm failing to see the problem with selling a spot in a hard Titan run.

I don't think there's a problem with that, either. Â Apparently, though, that is not what was going on in this situation.

Cato · **09-29-2013, 05:39 AM**

(09-28-2013, 09:58 PM)Divisor Wrote:
(09-28-2013, 09:55 PM)Nako Vesh Wrote: I wish I was surprised that Reddit is involved.

To be fair, reddit is very upset about this and most people are trying really hard to get the accused moderator removed.

Hopefully they succeed! Especially if they present evidence.

Ari Kagon · **09-29-2013, 05:50 AM**

(09-29-2013, 05:32 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-29-2013, 05:26 AM)DAISHI Wrote: I'm failing to see the problem with selling a spot in a hard Titan run.

I don't think there's a problem with that, either. Â Apparently, though, that is not what was going on in this situation.

It's not the selling of runs that is the problem, it's sabotaging runs to force people into buying runs from the same jerk who is intentionally ruining the group. If people don't want to earn their HM kill, that is their prerogative , but to stoop this low is just sickening.

K'nahli · **09-29-2013, 06:46 AM**

I guess I am the only one who also is shocked to see runs being sold but okay @-@

Cato · **09-29-2013, 06:53 AM**

(09-29-2013, 06:46 AM)K Wrote: I guess I am the only one who also is shocked to see runs being sold but okay @-@

You're not the only one! Well, I wouldn't say I'm shocked, but it's something I'm definitely against. It serves to cheapen the content in question and is partly why I'm not particularly keen on indulging in high end raiding any longer. I used to devote to it back in WoW, though the rise in the amount of players who would throw money around to get the same gear, titles and mounts that had once been largely exclusive to players who had earned them became pretty ridiculous.

K'nahli · **09-29-2013, 07:03 AM**

I see ^^Â Admittedly I wouldn't share the same level of desire to help people with runs on this game as I would have on M:H/Vindictus, possibly because of how much more massive this one is in population, but I can't get my head around 'helping' someone who I assume is having trouble doing a dungeon run and then stretching out an open palm before them afterwards and expecting them to pay you for it.

Rinh Hallani · **09-29-2013, 07:12 AM**

(09-29-2013, 06:46 AM)K Wrote: I guess I am the only one who also is shocked to see runs being sold but okay @-@

No, I'm surprised by this as well. I never saw it in WoW, but I was in raiding guilds and we all just did it ourselves so, guess I was a bit sheltered in that respect. I'm not sure how I feel about the concept of selling runs itself but certainly purposefully wiping so you can sell a successful run afterwards is pretty dodgy.

Asyria · **09-29-2013, 11:00 AM**

Report the jerk, tell everyone who's witnessed this to report him too... if Squeenix decides it's bad enough form or actual griefing they will do something. If they decide not to do anything, you'll only have lost a moment of your time.

Might also be a good idea to take names.
So people know never to party with the above-mentioned jerk.

raindrops · **09-29-2013, 11:19 AM**

While I personally am not sure how I feel about buying/selling HM runs - I don't think I'd ever want to be carried through anything, but I've not reached the HM primal fights yet so I can't pretend to be an expert wither way - it's not against any rules. I am concerned that the audience for being carried, at least so early on in the game, does probably overlap with the audience for buying gil (the 'I want this right now' types) and so that this will probably encourage people who might have bought gil anyway to go ahead with it, but that's not actually any wrongdoing on the part of the guilds doing this.

(Though it does make it somewhat dangerous to do - Square are currently investigating a lot of players who've crossed a certain gil threshold too quickly as part of trying to track down gil sellers and buyers. No doubt most of them - people who make their gil through market trades that are logged and easy to track - will be found innocent and let go. But if, as is probably how HM runs work, you've received a lot of empty gil trades for a large amount each time? That starts to look very suspect, especially if those trades are from known gil buyers. It's not the fault of the people selling HM runs, but it does put them in a very, very risky situation.)

The selling isn't the big problem here as far as actual ingame things go, it's the sabotage. And for the most part, it looks like the accusations of sabotage are untrue, at least toward these particular playersÂ (I don't doubt that there are some incredible arses who enjoy ruining other people's fun). They're based entirely on what appears to be a joke (a dreadfully unfunny joke made in poor taste, but a joke nonetheless) made by one of the members about doing this to drive up demand for paid runs. In all of the fuss surrounding this mess - and there has been an awful lot of fuss - I've not seen one person come forward to mention any member of this FC sabotaging their run.

The other big problem, and the reason this got so out of hand, is the handling of it on Reddit. The mod in question deleted the thread in which people started discussing what was going on and in doing so essentially kicked a hornet's nest. What could have been discussion turned into people furious that they were being censored/information was being kept from them and desperate to find out 'the truth'. Since it's come out that the mod was also letting their FC see deleted posts from the Reddit (largely regarding exploits), it's safe to say they have been abusing their power anyway and should probably be un-modded. But really that has little to do with FFXIV proper.

(Unrelated: I'm not sure why people here are being so hostile toward the FFXIV reddit - I have my problems with Reddit as a whole but for the most part the FFXIV one has been nothing but civil toward us. Hell, they've even been getting excited about our events and turning up and behaving! That's more than we get from the general FFXIV community.)

Exantra · **09-29-2013, 11:21 AM**

I've never seen a problem if a group of players decided to put their skills to use and offer players the chance to be carried through content they might have otherwise struggled with. Whether it's an issue of time, finding a good group, or simply traveling down the path of least resistance, there are always going to be players who put reward before content, so the practice of carrying through such seems like a practical idea to make a bit of money out of those who want instant success. You could argue that it might present other, less savoury situations (the players who want to rush through content buying the gil from RMTers), but I don't feel it's a direct cause of the group itself. Unfortunately we cannot prevent these types of players who want everything now from playing, and I'm often hard pressed to convince them otherwise, not that I like to force my own opinions on how one should play the game.

On the issue on purposefully ruining runs in an attempt to coerce them into buying successful runs instead, well I don't need to go into lengthy detail as to why that's such a pathetic routine. The fact that there's supposedly someone who holds the position of authority on an online forum included in that scheme just makes it all the more laughable.

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HM fight griefing on Balmung!

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