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Swift Nightclaw · **10-10-2013, 02:22 PM**

(10-10-2013, 02:12 PM)Magellan Wrote: I'm talking more about within the framework of the guild itself; characters not following the guidelines of the group/theme they are in, and not being held accountable ICly.

That's what's taking me so long to start looking for others to join my FC/LS for RP purposes. I'm trying to hammer out what's expected and the rules.

I think that's the biggest part is having a strong foundation and structure for the group to know what's expected and what's to be adhered to.

There's a blood elf guild on Wyrmrest over on WoW called Selama Ashalanore and a Forsaken one called Scythe of Sylvanas that, just looking over their websites, are very detailed and established as to what they expect from their members and what guidelines you would have to adhere to.

You can agree or disagree with them, of course, but then you know quite well if you'd fit in.Â I think more guilds should really lay out the details expected from a RP perspective.

(10-10-2013, 02:19 PM)Raccoon Wrote: I've just never seen a hero that's truly heroic, and the ones that play at it, I end up hating for doing things that you cannot begin to imagine as "good". Sparing a group that has just finished raping and murdering an entire village just so they can be taken to trial? Uh, no. But if you do execute them, oops, anti-hero.

Of course, if you want to play Silver/Golden age comic book heroes who only ever encounter the silly evils of those eras, I can see you avoiding such scenarios, but you're just not going to find it when everyone else is playing in the modern era. It's no longer a time when people believe or even really want to believe that everyone is inherently good.

Um...yeah, taking them in is exactly what sets the hero apart from the anti-hero.Â That's the difference between Batman vs Judge Dredd, plain and simple.Â That doesn't make the hero boring.Â Ignoring the impact, the struggle, and the overwhelming desire to butcher them is what would make them boring. Addressing those feelings is where the heroic character is interesting in that scenario; not their refusal to be a murderer themselves.

To me, it's more boring when the character does go all rage and kills them all off and then goes on about their business without a care. Nobody seems to want to delve into the impact all this murder and blood shed their characters are surrounded by has on them. Truthfully and realistically, a lot of the characters in games/stories/movies are likely pretty messed up in the head after everything they go through.

Marvel has long done a fantastic job of portraying heroes who aren't anti-hero and deal with moral gray, but their larger struggles are their own internal ones. Stark's a good guy, he's a hero archetype. He's also kind of an arrogant jerk and an alcoholic. Wink

That's kind of a huge boon to playing any character well; dealing with their own personal struggles/demons with more difficulty than the external ones set before them.

Fates Skein · **10-10-2013, 03:57 PM**

A lot of people have responded to this in interesting ways. Â I see that the OP seems to have a very specific complaint: false advertising. Â (S)He joined a guild claiming to be heroes, then found out that the other people playing said guild are not heroic- they are anti-heros at best.

The thing is, and this is entirely speculation, what if the players of those characters are planning on taking their characters through the route of redemption? Â Maybe they're heartless mercs right now, or anti-heroes, or fallen heroes. Â One interesting possibility is that they are wanting these characters to fall, to hit rock bottom, then rise again to become the shining paragons.

Personally, I do find 'truly good guys' boring and unrealistic to play. Â Jedi I see as a religious organization that is rigid and unyielding, more concerned about whether their members are knocking boots or -caring about anything- than going out there and really making the world better. (The Jedi Code never mentions 'be a good person'.) Â The Enterprise crew was generally good but flawed- they gave in to rage, and lust, and fear and sometimes they did the wrong things for 'the right reasons'. Â That's what made them interesting to me. Â Characters that are completely selfless confuse me- because that selflessness -is- a form of self-interest, imo. Â Whether or not the characters themselves see it, they are receiving feedback from others to continue their actions- they are rewarded for being good.

This is not to say that I'm all about grim-dark either. Â Typically speaking, I play nominally good characters- Anais is a pirate and has very little conscience nor a strong moral compass, but she believes strongly in saving people and has dedicated her studies into the healing arts. Â C'rhisi is a naieve child that wants to do good but has a strong temper and a stronger fear of failure that can and will drive her to do things that may not be right. Â Former characters I've played were a demon trying desperately to atone for the evil of her race, a Sith Inquisitor who didn't want to rule the world- she just wanted a library the size of a planet- but was willing to do whatever it took to get what she wanted, etc, etc, etc.

The thing is, speaking in broad generalizations, people playing 'heroes' have fewer motivations and less characterization than people playing around in the shades of grey. Â They also, in my experience, tend to expect to be rewarded universally ICly for their actions and become very OOCly upset when the people they save or the fight they broke up or the black-marketeer they locked up isn't met with appreciation and praise.

When I think of 'truly good' heroes, I think of Disney characters- the heroes, imo, are far, far less interesting and less relatable than the villains. Â Not because I am a bad person but because the villains' stories, their motivations, are things I feel are universally understood.

I think 'shades of grey' heroes- Batman, Spidey, the Fellowship of the Ring, etc.- are more interesting, more relatable, and in the end, longer lasting archetypes/characters.

Faye · **10-10-2013, 05:11 PM**

(10-10-2013, 01:55 PM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: One of the main issues I have with 'good guys' is that they often push to hold the 'bad guys' accountable for every little thing they do, yet then ignore any consequences associated with their own shady actions.

That's pretty much been my experience is the vast majority of 'good guy' role-players and 'justice' orientated guilds across a fair few MMO's. They're not above the law, though they often act as though they are and tend to be backed up by a network of close friends and allies who will crow on and on about how 'awesome' they are and make excuses as to why they shouldn't be held accountable for what they do.

Isn't that something that "good guys" often do in real life, though? Of course, there is a point when that goes from a realistic and interesting character to just being bad RPing--and that's based solely on the RPers OOC intentions. Did he mean to make his character a well-intentioned but self-righteous hypocrite? Or does he think his character is the best thing since sliced bread and for that reason is entirely blind to his character's faults and keeps going on about how his character is always good and always right (Yeah... I've run into people doing this before in a past MMO)? If it's the latter, it's just bad RP, which affects all characters and tropes, so it's not necessarily an aspect of RPing "good guys."

Swift Nightclaw · **10-10-2013, 05:32 PM**

(10-10-2013, 03:57 PM)Fates Skein Wrote: When I think of 'truly good' heroes, I think of Disney characters- the heroes, imo, are far, far less interesting and less relatable than the villains. Â Not because I am a bad person but because the villains' stories, their motivations, are things I feel are universally understood.

Except for my chocobo's name inspiration.

Kuzco was an awesome protagonist.Â Big Grin

And K'uzco is an awesome chocobo.

Pacha was a good guy too and totally relatable.Â And Lilo & Stitch weren't goody two shoes either.

Okay, I'll stop and be good now.

>_>
<_<
(K'uzco is an awesome chocobo)
/runs away

LiadansWhisper · **10-10-2013, 06:41 PM**

(10-10-2013, 05:11 PM)Faye Wrote:
(10-10-2013, 01:55 PM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: One of the main issues I have with 'good guys' is that they often push to hold the 'bad guys' accountable for every little thing they do, yet then ignore any consequences associated with their own shady actions.

That's pretty much been my experience is the vast majority of 'good guy' role-players and 'justice' orientated guilds across a fair few MMO's. They're not above the law, though they often act as though they are and tend to be backed up by a network of close friends and allies who will crow on and on about how 'awesome' they are and make excuses as to why they shouldn't be held accountable for what they do.

Isn't that something that "good guys" often do in real life, though? Of course, there is a point when that goes from a realistic and interesting character to just being bad RPing--and that's based solely on the RPers OOC intentions. Did he mean to make his character a well-intentioned but self-righteous hypocrite? Or does he think his character is the best thing since sliced bread and for that reason is entirely blind to his character's faults and keeps going on about how his character is always good and always right (Yeah... I've run into people doing this before in a past MMO)? If it's the latter, it's just bad RP, which affects all characters and tropes, so it's not necessarily an aspect of RPing "good guys."

I think that it tends to occur more often with nominally good-aligned characters, at least in my experience. Â Whether that's because they end up getting more attention because they are openly good-aligned, or whether there just actually is a higher rate of this occurring among good-aligned characters, I honestly don't know.

Faye · **10-10-2013, 06:51 PM**

(10-10-2013, 06:41 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(10-10-2013, 05:11 PM)Faye Wrote:
(10-10-2013, 01:55 PM)Theodric Ironheart Wrote: One of the main issues I have with 'good guys' is that they often push to hold the 'bad guys' accountable for every little thing they do, yet then ignore any consequences associated with their own shady actions.

That's pretty much been my experience is the vast majority of 'good guy' role-players and 'justice' orientated guilds across a fair few MMO's. They're not above the law, though they often act as though they are and tend to be backed up by a network of close friends and allies who will crow on and on about how 'awesome' they are and make excuses as to why they shouldn't be held accountable for what they do.

Isn't that something that "good guys" often do in real life, though? Of course, there is a point when that goes from a realistic and interesting character to just being bad RPing--and that's based solely on the RPers OOC intentions. Did he mean to make his character a well-intentioned but self-righteous hypocrite? Or does he think his character is the best thing since sliced bread and for that reason is entirely blind to his character's faults and keeps going on about how his character is always good and always right (Yeah... I've run into people doing this before in a past MMO)? If it's the latter, it's just bad RP, which affects all characters and tropes, so it's not necessarily an aspect of RPing "good guys."

I think that it tends to occur more often with nominally good-aligned characters, at least in my experience. Â Whether that's because they end up getting more attention because they are openly good-aligned, or whether there just actually is a higher rate of this occurring among good-aligned characters, I honestly don't know.

This specific scenario would obviously apply more to "good" characters--in fact, I can't see how it could ever apply to bad characters. There are bad characters who charade as (or perhaps genuinely think themselves) "good guys" and parade around bullying other people who don't align to what they claim is law, but I can't imagine that sort of hypocrisy, if the character is intentionally an antagonist, could be accidental, since the character is supposed to be a bad character. That's not bad RPing, that's just someone RPing a bad person. And if self-righteous hypocrites exist in real life, why can't they in RP? In my experience, they're amazingly fun to play.

What I meant to say is that there are "bad" RPers playing characters of each and every alignment. If any alignment has more bad RPers than any others, I honestly think it would be anything in the evil spectrum. That may not be true, but most bad RPers I seeing playing good guys tend to just make boring, one-dimensional hero characters, and I would rather deal with that than the evil "I walk in and stab you and set the tavern on fire because i r ebil mwahaha" characters that bad RPers make.

LiadansWhisper · **10-10-2013, 07:14 PM**

(10-10-2013, 06:51 PM)Faye Wrote: This specific scenario would obviously apply more to "good" characters--in fact, I can't see how it could ever apply to bad characters. There are bad characters who charade as (or perhaps genuinely think themselves) "good guys" and parade around bullying other people who don't align to what they claim is law, but I can't imagine that sort of hypocrisy, if the character is intentionally an antagonist, could be accidental, since the character is supposed to be a bad character. That's not bad RPing, that's just someone RPing a bad person. And if self-righteous hypocrites exist in real life, why can't they in RP? In my experience, they're amazingly fun to play.

What I meant to say is that there are "bad" RPers playing characters of each and every alignment. If any alignment has more bad RPers than any others, I honestly think it would be anything in the evil spectrum. That may not be true, but most bad RPers I seeing playing good guys tend to just make boring, one-dimensional hero characters, and I would rather deal with that than the evil "I walk in and stab you and set the tavern on fire because i r ebil mwahaha" characters that bad RPers make.

I never said it would apply to bad-aligned characters. Â I'm talking about D&D Paladins, Bladedancers, Clerics/Favored Souls, WoW Paladins, etc.

Faye · **10-10-2013, 07:19 PM**

(10-10-2013, 07:14 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(10-10-2013, 06:51 PM)Faye Wrote: This specific scenario would obviously apply more to "good" characters--in fact, I can't see how it could ever apply to bad characters. There are bad characters who charade as (or perhaps genuinely think themselves) "good guys" and parade around bullying other people who don't align to what they claim is law, but I can't imagine that sort of hypocrisy, if the character is intentionally an antagonist, could be accidental, since the character is supposed to be a bad character. That's not bad RPing, that's just someone RPing a bad person. And if self-righteous hypocrites exist in real life, why can't they in RP? In my experience, they're amazingly fun to play.

What I meant to say is that there are "bad" RPers playing characters of each and every alignment. If any alignment has more bad RPers than any others, I honestly think it would be anything in the evil spectrum. That may not be true, but most bad RPers I seeing playing good guys tend to just make boring, one-dimensional hero characters, and I would rather deal with that than the evil "I walk in and stab you and set the tavern on fire because i r ebil mwahaha" characters that bad RPers make.

I never said it would apply to bad-aligned characters. Â I'm talking about D&D Paladins, Bladedancers, Clerics/Favored Souls, WoW Paladins, etc.

Wouldn't those also be generally considered "good" characters? I'm just confused what the "more often" could be comparing it to, since it seems to be a problem exclusive to characters that are supposedly good-aligned.

LiadansWhisper · **10-10-2013, 08:14 PM**

(10-10-2013, 07:19 PM)Faye Wrote: Wouldn't those also be generally considered "good" characters? I'm just confused what the "more often" could be comparing it to, since it seems to be a problem exclusive to characters that are supposedly good-aligned.

There are openly, blatantly good characters, there are openly, blatantly evil characters, and then there are characters who are neither of those. Â Either they're "nominally good" (i.e. the concept is not for an evil character, but neither are they especially good), or they run under the radar, rarely drawing attention to themselves (whether by accident or design).

In my experience, the tendency for characters to jump all over an evil character's actions, while ignoring their own behavior, tends to occur more on the part of those who are openly, blatantly good and make sure everyone knows it, than it does on the part of those who are openly, blatantly evil.

Now, this could be due to several factors. Off the top of my head, openly, blatantly evil characters tend not to have a long shelf-life, as it were. Additionally, there are many more loopholes for evil characters than there are for good characters. The ends can completely justify the means for an evil character - up to and including an evil character committing good acts in pursuit of an overall evil agenda. That doesn't work so well for good-aligned characters.

Faye · **10-10-2013, 08:34 PM**

(10-10-2013, 08:14 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(10-10-2013, 07:19 PM)Faye Wrote: Wouldn't those also be generally considered "good" characters? I'm just confused what the "more often" could be comparing it to, since it seems to be a problem exclusive to characters that are supposedly good-aligned.

There are openly, blatantly good characters, there are openly, blatantly evil characters, and then there are characters who are neither of those. Â Either they're "nominally good" (i.e. the concept is not for an evil character, but neither are they especially good), or they run under the radar, rarely drawing attention to themselves (whether by accident or design).

In my experience, the tendency for characters to jump all over an evil character's actions, while ignoring their own behavior, tends to occur more on the part of those who are openly, blatantly good and make sure everyone knows it, than it does on the part of those who are openly, blatantly evil.

Now, this could be due to several factors. Â Off the top of my head, openly, blatantly evil characters tend not to have a long shelf-life, as it were. Â Additionally, there are many more loopholes for Â evil characters than there are for good characters. Â The ends can completely justify the means for an evil character - up to and including an evil character committing good acts in pursuit of an overall evil agenda. Â That doesn't work so well for good-aligned characters.

I think we're talking about two different things. Maybe I'm interpreting this completely wrong, but it seems sort of... asinine not to expect good characters to butt into the business of evil characters? I don't really know why most "evil" characters would get onto someone's case about their actions to begin with, so of course "good" characters are more likely to do that.

LiadansWhisper · **10-10-2013, 08:42 PM**

(10-10-2013, 08:34 PM)Faye Wrote: I think we're talking about two different things. Maybe I'm interpreting this completely wrong, but it seems sort of... asinine not to expect good characters to butt into the business of evil characters? I don't really know why most "evil" characters would get onto someone's case about their actions to begin with, so of course "good" characters are more likely to do that.

Of course they should. Â But there has to be a balance between what they should do and what works best for the story. Additionally, it's less about them ignoring their own character flaws in-character, and more about them getting upset out of character when they're called on their behavior.

i.e. I once saw a Paladin of Sune's player pitch the biggest bitch fit because the DMs gave her a Fallen token because she actually advised another character to hire a hit man to murder a third character the Paladin felt was evil. Â The player could not understand why this was an issue, and OOCly got upset.

I'm 99% sure that's the kind of thing Theo was talking about, anyway.

LandStander · **10-10-2013, 11:38 PM**

I normally play evil aligned characters, but I do like the good ones sometimes. My only problem with some people who play good guys is because they seem to usually think that because they are the "good guys" that it means that they always win and that always upsets me.

I normally play villains because I enjoy good conflict. I just hate when conflict is broken down because your good guy is super beautiful and strong and cannot be defeated because the power of light is more stronger than the power of evil.

Erik Mynhier · **10-11-2013, 03:38 AM**

I believe truly good characters (such as Erik) are not only exciting to play, they are rewarding because the anti-hero is so prevalent that to be true and good is unusual and stands out.

The difference between the neutral and anti-heroes, and a true hero is while all have some form of a tragic past, the neutral and anti-heroes allow it to define them, where as a hero uses the energy of it to push on and reinforce his values. He/she is like a devout religious person, they see everything as a sign that they are right, in the case of a hero they see everything as a sign that they are making a difference.

I love heroes. While the anti-hero is a tragic hero, the true hero rises above.

Magellan · **10-11-2013, 09:14 AM**

Hmm, to address some comments in brief;

My hero almost never won xD. That was part of the problem I guess. No one ever seems to want to concede in combat RP :p

Someone used the example of a hero coming across a band that was raping and pillaging a village, and allowing them to live in order to face justice. My hero actual was not lawful good, and probably would have shot down those a-holes right where they stood. Vanquishing quote/unquote 'evil' was very much in her moral dna.

My hero was pushed to question her beliefs often. She had a lack of self-confidence, but simply could not stand to see people suffer, and sought to right wrongs wherever they occurred. She never struck me as one-dimensional.

Someone mentioned false advertising in an FC/guild as being the problem. Sometimes this is the case! Sometimes, however, the advertising is correct, but the people joining it aren't paying attention.

And finally, I'd like to reiterate that I am extremely happy where I am, both in the FC I've ended up in, and with the larger community as a whole. This post was merely meant to elicit the viewpoints of my peers on pratfalls I had experienced on a specific type of character I like to play. My other characters are flourishing, thanks to my lovely FC, and some great friends I've made along the way.

Thank you all for you insights andcontributions. You've been a big help!

Swift Nightclaw · **10-11-2013, 09:50 AM**

(10-11-2013, 09:14 AM)Magellan Wrote: Hmm, to address some comments in brief;

My hero almost never won xD. That was part of the problem I guess. No one ever seems to want to concede in combat RP :p

Super over-used now, I'm sure, but I like it, so I'm going to use it again....

"The world ain't all sunshine and rainbows. It's a very mean and nasty place and I don't care how tough you are it will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it. You, me, or nobody is gonna hit as hard as life. But it ain't about how hard you're hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward. "

I think that definitely goes towards the hero's character.

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Are good guys boring to play?

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