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K'dath · **10-13-2013, 07:47 PM**

(10-13-2013, 06:13 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: If you are spamming Cure 2, you are going to be in for a sad panda moment as you have no mana. Â That isn't how WHM works at all. Â :-\

Could have fooled me with the ways my dungeons seem to go. Being a healer =/= being a good healer, as far as most people are concerned.

I don't play WHM, but I've been a healer for a long time in multiple MMOs. I love my job, even if I joke that it's for masochists. But I also think things that are non-standard are fun too. WHM is very standard.

LiadansWhisper · **10-13-2013, 08:02 PM**

(10-13-2013, 07:21 PM)Torvhan Wrote: Support classes aren't half baked healers that is not the idea. But with our party limits they would likely fall in the role the healer fills in small parties, healers and tanks are always needed for groups and its unlikely for a support class to fill a DPS role unless we are talking about just having a few support abilities like the bard.

So then I get excluded because someone who brings both damage and healing can do my job equally as well as I do? Â I'm still not okay with that.

Quote:Support classes often have very little damage as well, if we are talking about creating a pure support class which could fill the the Role class of a healer. I agree if they had actual damage then yes they shouldn't be able to cover the "gap of healing" as well.

Honestly? Â If they're only half-assed healers, and half-assed DPS, no one will want them. Â That's the entire reason why WoW doesn't have a Support role.

Quote:In larger groups I couldn't see two support being able to work as effectively although many support classes reduce damage taken in a smaller group (4) such that having a healer as support would not be required, damage is still taken. In large group content 8-24 a Combination of healing and support or pure healing as normal would be preferable. The support classes would reduce the damage taken by the party to a level the fewer healers they would have.

I'm curious whether or not you've seen any of the endgame content... Â Because I can't imagine anything but a full-on healer handling level 50 dungeons or raid bosses. Â Hell, in dungeons it's not even the bosses that are the issues. Â Some of the trash packs are absolutely brutal.

Quote:Like I said I base my ideas from City of Heroes one of the few games I've seen succeed in changing the Triad slightly. Healers were part of the defender(support) archetype, being their shared goal is to keep the party alive. Guild Wars 2 bucked the trend by giving everyone healing, and honestly the dungeons I ran were just chaotic and I did not enjoy them as much as traditional systems or CoH.

There's a reason why I don't ply CoH or GW2. Â From my posts, I'm pretty sure you can figure out why that is.

Quote:I love healers and play them myself when I'm not tanking but honestly their is never enough healers and tanks, the populations will always be heavy skewed towards DPS.

And this will somehow help? Â The reason healers and tanks are smaller in number than DPS is that the healing and tanking roles both come with additional responsibility. Â If a DPS fucks up, in general it just means the boss dies more slowly or they get themselves killed. Â If a tank or healer fucks up, it normally ends in a wipe. Â Many players simply don't want that responsibility, or the stress that comes with it.

Replacing healers with Support isn't going to change that. Â Not one iota.

Quote:As they increase the number of classes we will likely see a few more tanks and healers or pure support classes. I'm not saying lets create a support class that over powered or all around better than our current healers. Its just something different that instead of healing keeps the party alive in another way. I could see them only "replacing" healers in small group content (4) because what other role would they fulfill? A pure support class would have very little damage just like a traditional healer, and would be unable to fulfill the role of a DPS. In larger groups they would be augmenting the healers just as they normally do.

Quite frankly, if a Support role doesn't do a job better than a DPS, healer, or tank, there's no reason to bring them. Â If you're pushing progression, you only bring what is necessary, so either the Support class would need to be flat-out better at a particular job than the main role (in which case, why would you ever bring the main role?), or they need to bring a buff that is absolutely necessary for the success of your endeavor.

Neither of those situations is balanced, and neither one is a good place for any class to be in.

(10-13-2013, 07:47 PM)K Wrote:
(10-13-2013, 06:13 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: If you are spamming Cure 2, you are going to be in for a sad panda moment as you have no mana. Â That isn't how WHM works at all. Â :-\

Could have fooled me with the ways my dungeons seem to go. Being a healer =/= being a good healer, as far as most people are concerned.

I don't play WHM, but I've been a healer for a long time in multiple MMOs. I love my job, even if I joke that it's for masochists. But I also think things that are non-standard are fun too. WHM is very standard.

WHM doesn't get most of its tools until 40+. Â You don't get Regen until 35, you don't get your primary AoE (Medica II) until 50. Â you don't get your Oh-Shit button (Benediction) until 50, and you have to cross class for several other important abilities (Swiftcast, Surecast, Eye for an Eye). Â So it's really hard to judge the class when you're playing for the first 30 levels because it's incredibly boring until you start getting the better tools.

Naunet · **10-13-2013, 08:10 PM**

(10-13-2013, 06:13 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: If you are spamming Cure 2, you are going to be in for a sad panda moment as you have no mana. Â That isn't how WHM works at all. Â :-\

No, it's Cure I spam with Cure II when it procs or if there's an emergency... Every so often you get to hit Medica II. Healing in this game is a complete snoozefest. >_<

(10-13-2013, 08:02 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I'm curious whether or not you've seen any of the endgame content... Â Because I can't imagine anything but a full-on healer handling level 50 dungeons or raid bosses. Â Hell, in dungeons it's not even the bosses that are the issues. Â Some of the trash packs are absolutely brutal.

As a 50 WHM, I don't think I've come across anythingÂ in this game that I would describe as "absolutely brutal", least of all trash packs. Half the time I'm running ahead training mobs on the tank just to give myself something to do.

LiadansWhisper · **10-13-2013, 08:37 PM**

(10-13-2013, 08:10 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(10-13-2013, 06:13 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: If you are spamming Cure 2, you are going to be in for a sad panda moment as you have no mana. Â That isn't how WHM works at all. Â :-\

No, it's Cure I spam with Cure II when it procs or if there's an emergency... Every so often you get to hit Medica II. Healing in this game is a complete snoozefest. >_<

I must get more "colorful" parties than yours.

Quote:As a 50 WHM, I don't think I've come across anythingÂ in this game that I would describe as "absolutely brutal", least of all trash packs. Half the time I'm running ahead training mobs on the tank just to give myself something to do.

And as a 50 WHM, I can counter that with saying my experience has been completely different. Â It depends on a number of factors, including the gear and skill of the tank, as well as the gear and skill of the DPS in the party. Â I've had absolutely smooth, boring runs, and I've had runs where I was sucking on fumes the entire time, trying my damndest not to end up tanking everything but the one mob the tank is capable of tanking. Â I've had both happen, and you can ask Chance or Aleister or Sylas, and they'll all tell you I'm one of the few WHM who almost never pulls.

I've also tanked the mobs in HM Garuda when I wasn't supposed to, etc. Â Sometimes things go wrong, and I guess if you're pugging you'll end up with that more often.

My friend in Resonate over on Behemoth has said that had he known that healing was going to be as stressful and frustrating as it is in the latter Turns of Coils, he wouldn't have rolled a healer. Â And this is a guy who has been in a top 50 WoW guild for like, 5 years now?

K'dath · **10-13-2013, 08:40 PM**

(10-13-2013, 08:02 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: WHM doesn't get most of its tools until 40+. Â You don't get Regen until 35, you don't get your primary AoE (Medica II) until 50. Â you don't get your Oh-Shit button (Benediction) until 50, and you have to cross class for several other important abilities (Swiftcast, Surecast, Eye for an Eye). Â So it's really hard to judge the class when you're playing for the first 30 levels because it's incredibly boring until you start getting the better tools.

My massive problem with this is that I can re-name all those spells as other things and drag and drop them onto hot bars in different games. It's the exact same rotation copy and pasted for every healing class ever. I already played 90 levels of Priest for 5 years. I enjoyed my time with him, but if I want to play a priest I'd play my bloody priest!

You seem to think that having another option for the healing role is some sort of attack on the sanctity of the very standard healer rotation. Your argument mainly consisting of 'I am not okay with this' without a solid reason as to why it would be objectively detrimental to the fabric of the game. 'It wouldn't be good for progression' isn't an objective statement either. What does and doesn't work for you is not the definitive rule on what can or can't be accomplished. It's all opinion.

And in my opinion, it would be a nice change of pace. I'd gladly invest time into doing something completely new, because warlock reskin Arcanist isn't ground breaking either. I've been amusing myself by Summoner Tanking, since Blizz decided to take the fun out of Demo tanking by making it 'viable'.

LiadansWhisper · **10-13-2013, 09:25 PM**

(10-13-2013, 08:40 PM)K Wrote:
(10-13-2013, 08:02 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: WHM doesn't get most of its tools until 40+. Â You don't get Regen until 35, you don't get your primary AoE (Medica II) until 50. Â you don't get your Oh-Shit button (Benediction) until 50, and you have to cross class for several other important abilities (Swiftcast, Surecast, Eye for an Eye). Â So it's really hard to judge the class when you're playing for the first 30 levels because it's incredibly boring until you start getting the better tools.

My massive problem with this is that I can re-name all those spells as other things and drag and drop them onto hot bars in different games. It's the exact same rotation copy and pasted for every healing class ever. I already played 90 levels of Priest for 5 years. I enjoyed my time with him, but if I want to play a priest I'd play my bloody priest!

You seem to think that having another option for the healing role is some sort of attack on the sanctity of the very standard healer rotation. Your argument mainly consisting of 'I am not okay with this' without a solid reason as to why it would be objectively detrimental to the fabric of the game. 'It wouldn't be good for progression' isn't an objective statement either. What does and doesn't work for you is not the definitive rule on what can or can't be accomplished. It's all opinion.

And in my opinion, it would be a nice change of pace. I'd gladly invest time into doing something completely new, because warlock reskin Arcanist isn't ground breaking either. I've been amusing myself by Summoner Tanking, since Blizz decided to take the fun out of Demo tanking by making it 'viable'.

Nope, that isn't what my issue is at all.

I play healers in every game I've ever played. Â I play healers of all varieties - from your standard Holy Priest to a Chloromancer/Warden in Rift, to Inquisitor/Sage in SWTOR. Â It has nothing to do with something non-standard, but it's really freaking difficult to balance a healer who brings both damage and healing. Â It's a huge issue in WoW with Mistweavers and Disc Priests. Â It'll be a huge issue in this game. Â How do you balance content around a healer that both brings DPS and healing? Â One or the other must suffer or the spec will be completely OP.

Even if I really would love to see a Chloromancer-type healer in this game.

K'dath · **10-13-2013, 10:27 PM**

Fair enough argument. This game is hideously unbalanced as it is right now. I'd never want to draw the eye of the nerf-bet to myself, but even so I find some of the things I can get away with as an Arcanist are totally unacceptable. I take hits like a planet. Coupled with access to heals, Protect, CC, AoE, a pet, and peerless mobility, I can very easily take things 10-12 levels higher with no difficulty. And that's not okay.

And of course, this proposed 'Support' role doesn't exist yet. There's no way to say what it can and can't do and what it would and wouldn't be good for. Because it doesn't exist! You can't balance something that isn't there.

I likened it to the nearest 'Pure Support' role I've ever played, which I enjoyed, and was completely viable in its setting. Which I admitted was radically different in pacing and tone to this game's content. It relies on very strict time management and strategic placement. It's very breakneck, and if you mess up you've killed your team. You heal for a little and give a small buff, you do a little damage and give a small debuff, you can throw out one powerful short buff with a stupidly long CD, or you can nuke the target with every condition in the game, also on a stupidly long CD.

I think something like that would mechanically mesh well with what (admittedly little) I've seen of end game. A short duration but very powerful raid buff (a la Bloodlust), with a minimal regen tacked on would be a nice 'oh-shit' thing to have. You can put down a small circle and anyone standing in it gets a Determination buff, just like K'hlyia does in the Arcanist questline. Being able to throw a Haste on an ally caster or Slow on a boss could do just as much to prevent a wipe as outright healing or mitigating damage. You would still need a healer who is NOT a support, to do the actual healing.

I don't want a support to replace healers. I would like it to compliment them. But this is a raid perspective. In 4 mans, yes, they'd 'replace' the healer because the ability to recover health is there, even if it is not the focus. A Feral Druid can still tank a 5 man, even if Guardian is 'the tank' spec. It still hardly stands that you'd be fighting tooth and nail to get a dungeon queue if there were one more healing class. As you yourself said, people don't play healers because they don't want the responsibility. There will always be a demand for them, and adding an alternative isn't likened to illegal immigrants 'takin our jerbs'. Having a support would just shift some of the burden off your poor healer's shoulders.

So what I'm thinking is that a support class won't be good at healing or DPS, it'll be good at helping both of those roles do their jobs better. It's something wholly its own thing that doesn't figure into the trifecta at all. At least how I perceive it. I don't have any reason in the world to think anything like this will come to pass, but it would be different. And different is always worth considering.

Trigonxv · **10-13-2013, 10:36 PM**

Okay I am not sure how a dps healer came into the picture but let me do some clarification I guess or at least clarify to the best of my ability. First of all again I believe I said in my first post a support class the focuses on buffing and enhancing party combat ability/defenses while debuffing/debilitating enemies would be a class I would love to try out. The way I see it, the amount of damage a party will take will be reduced to a notable degree with the right skills and rotation of such a support class, if such a class was coupled with a healer it would reduce the burden a healer may face at times in managing party health and leave them with an ample amount of mp no matter the situation. Also considering the party will be dealing more damage due to a supports buffs battles "should" end more quickly further reducing the overall damage a party takes in the course of a battle. Now of course the support class does need to do some kind of damage but nothing that deals out an abundant amount of damage over time, this comes in the form of the debilitation the class can cast and is just something that is more or less for level progression rather than legitimate dps. To further clarify such a debilitation would be that the enemy takes a certain amount of damage each time they either auto attack or use a skill is a viable support skill that would would work wonders in many battles. As far as healing is concerned since the class is support it will have some sort of healing but nothing as effective as a whm and what not, and to be honest the healing it would be doing would only be effective if the class is being used properly since it would heal taking into account the party has been optimized by your buffs and the enemies have been debuffed/debilitated appropriately, only then would a support classes heal really be effective. Now I do agree that IDK where such a class would fit in a 4 man party if any but I see the viability of such a class in 8 and 24 man raids. There we go, I think i made sense in all of that and if i didnt i am sorry Sad

but again I am not talking about a dps healer, I am talking about a class that focuses on making the party stronger and the enemies weaker making overall battles smoother.

LeCard · **10-15-2013, 05:59 PM**

O.K. having taken the time(and quite happily I might add) to watch the O.P.s mentions of the new anime "log Horizon" I see exactly where they are going with this class Idea, and it would be an amazing class that I would hit up in an instant!Â

The class as it appears in the anime:
Title: Strategist (ok maybe not exactly, but that's the role)
Role: pure support
Skills: tactics, skills that bind the foe, Skills at add dmg from others in the party(example being the vines that when struck deal extra damage to to enemy)

Skills I would recommend but haven't been in the show: regen hp/mp, some type of Libra skill(perhaps increase party crit rates? up element vulnerability based on the info obtained?) small sap style spell for direct dmg.

I think this is the style of support that the O.P. had in mind.

I would like to see some style of strategist class that is based around knowing the enemies weakness and useing them to the parties advantage, also I would say that they could buff the party against specific damage(facing a fire sprite? up fire element resistance, faceing sword wielders? use slash resistance) and I would say that they would fill a DPS role in smaller(4 man) dungeons and in 8-24 man their JOB could fill a healer/dps role.

basically I'm looking for the description promised by SCH but was never delivered. "Though the history of that age tells of countless wars waged with earth-shattering incantations, it was the brilliant strategic
maneuvering of Nym's scholars that allowed their mundane army of mariners to throw back would-be conquerers time and again."

Nako Vesh · **10-15-2013, 06:07 PM**

I'm very wary of the idea of support classes as much as I like the idea. Balancing around them is very, very tricky. Make them really good, and everyone will act as if they're required to bring one along to any encounter. Make them so-so and the class will be completely ignored.Â

I believe this was a problem with Red Mages in XI. They could pretty much do anything, and no one wanted to bring anything else to their encounters.

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