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Syl Souther · **01-30-2014, 09:18 PM**

(01-30-2014, 09:14 PM)Renault Delumiere Wrote:
(01-30-2014, 08:52 PM)C Wrote:
(01-30-2014, 08:31 PM)Renault Delumiere Wrote: As a villain RPer myself, I've gotta say I agree with Augustine. You dug your own grave on this one. If your character is stupid enough to speak about illegal activities just outside the Quicksand, in not enough of a code that it could be considered anything else, you've fucked up IC and probably deserve the consequences.
Just as a point of correction:

C'kayah admitted to breaking the law, and I'm fine with all the consequences that came out of that (including his death at the hands of a couple of overzealous Flames).

Natalie's character was fighting with him when the same overzealous Flames arrested her. Her issue with this whole thing is that she was effectively asked to surrender agency of her character because of that. That's really the sole point of contention here.

You guys made your own decisions. Natalie could have ran. She LET herself be god-modded in this situation. Also, know your IC rights! Immortal Flames RPers can't arrest you!

You could get a Brass Blade involved on this and have the Flames RPer stripped down and beaten for over stepping their boundaries. If you guys need help with this, let me know...

I want in on this...

By the way, I had some hilarious RP with one of the Flames after I came back to "help" Natalie as a witness. The Flame ARRESTED me. I not-so-happily went along with it. He took me back to the office and grilled me on my participation on the incident. He thought my character had attacked C'kayah and friends! I went with it. An Augustine came by to help me craft a prostitute's alibi and I walked out short a handful of gil.

It was awesome.

McBeefâ„¢ · **01-30-2014, 09:21 PM**

(01-30-2014, 09:18 PM)Rikve Niall Wrote: I want in on this...

By the way, I had some hilarious RP with one of the Flames after I came back to "help" Natalie as a witness. The Flame ARRESTED me. I not-so-happily went along with it. He took me back to the office and grilled me on my participation on the incident. He thought my character had attacked C'kayah and friends! I went with it. An Augustine came by to help me craft a prostitute's alibi and I walked out short a handful of gil.

It was awesome.

That's what you get for being a false witness!

Renee Becquerel · **01-30-2014, 09:21 PM**

I think there's a couple separate issues coming into play at once here.

First, there is, quite plainly, the matter of just what public RP and and what it entails. Â Simply and obviously, it's RP you do in public, and I think reserving certain "rights" for yourself as a roleplayer you don't extend to other people is, at best, a lapse in judgement.

Just like in real life, if you're doing something in public, people get to do other things in public too, including responding to what you're doing. Â This is doubly true for criminal acts. Â If someone is doing something they should not be doing in an overt, public way, then it shouldn't really come as any kind of surprise when someone tries to stop them.

If you as a roleplayer don't want that to happen, then the onus is on you as the creator of that scene to explain to other people that those other people are not allowed to publicly interact unless it is in a way that meets your strict approval. Â If you don't want to deal with that, then you need to take it into a private space.

Second, and it's something I think people need to accept as a matter of the social contract, is the idea that IC actions should result in IC consequences. Â If your character does something sufficiently high-profile in public, like admitting to being a dangerous criminal, then what happens next is and arguably should be up for grabs. Â If you, as a roleplayer, don't want your character to suffer consequences for their actions, then you should not make those actions public.

At the same time, if your character is going to respond to a public situation with drastic action then you should, as a matter of courtesy, clear that with your fellow roleplayers.

Honestly, to put it plainly, if your character is going to be a villain, a criminal, or otherwise a bad guy, and you don't want your character to suffer the consequences of their actions, then you, as a the person in control of that character, need to keep those actions away out of the spotlight.

Syl Souther · **01-30-2014, 09:22 PM**

(01-30-2014, 09:21 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(01-30-2014, 09:18 PM)R Wrote: I want in on this...

By the way, I had some hilarious RP with one of the Flames after I came back to "help" Natalie as a witness. The Flame ARRESTED me. I not-so-happily went along with it. He took me back to the office and grilled me on my participation on the incident. He thought my character had attacked C'kayah and friends! I went with it. An Augustine came by to help me craft a prostitute's alibi and I walked out short a handful of gil.

It was awesome.

That's what you get for being a false witness!

I am the best false witness. Big Grin

McBeefâ„¢ · **01-30-2014, 09:25 PM**

(01-30-2014, 09:14 PM)Renault Delumiere Wrote: You guys made your own decisions. Natalie could have ran. She LET herself be god-modded in this situation. Also, know your IC rights! Immortal Flames RPers can't arrest you!

You could get a Brass Blade involved on this and have the Flames RPer stripped down and beaten for over stepping their boundaries. If you guys need help with this, let me know...

Also, isn't Natalie a Sultansworn? She could have flaunted that to the Flamer and they would have turned tail and ran away. Sultansworn are more revered in Ul'dah than a lowly Flames donkey!

I think you make a good point here, I let the situation go on way to long. If I had communicated with the player earlier about some of these things we could have avoided the big misunderstanding at the end. There were a lot of things I went along with because I assumed the other player's was thinking along the same lines as me... but that turned out not to be the case.

Aldotsk · **01-30-2014, 09:27 PM**

No one's perfect. Everyone makes mistakes and also they have different opinions and taste and thoughts. It's best to let each other know about it before hand, negotiate and understand by communicating.

Val · **01-30-2014, 09:35 PM**

(01-30-2014, 09:21 PM)Renaud Becquerel Wrote: I think there's a couple separate issues coming into play at once here.

First, there is, quite plainly, the matter of just what public RP and and what it entails. Â Simply and obviously, it's RP you do in public, and I think reserving certain "rights" for yourself as a roleplayer you don't extend to other people is, at best, a lapse in judgement.

Just like in real life, if you're doing something in public, people get to do other things in public too, including responding to what you're doing. Â This is doubly true for criminal acts. Â If someone is doing something they should not be doing in an overt, public way, then it shouldn't really come as any kind of surprise when someone tries to stop them.

If you as a roleplayer don't want that to happen, then the onus is on you as the creator of that scene to explain to other people that those other people are not allowed to publicly interact unless it is in a way that meets your strict approval. Â If you don't want to deal with that, then you need to take it into a private space.

Second, and it's something I think people need to accept as a matter of the social contract, is the idea that IC actions should result in IC consequences. Â If your character does something sufficiently high-profile in public, like admitting to being a dangerous criminal, then what happens next is and arguably should be up for grabs. Â If you, as a roleplayer, don't want your character to suffer consequences for their actions, then you should not make those actions public.

At the same time, if your character is going to respond to a public situation with drastic action then you should, as a matter of courtesy, clear that with your fellow roleplayers.

Honestly, to put it plainly, if your character is going to be a villain, a criminal, or otherwise a bad guy, and you don't want your character to suffer the consequences of their actions, then you, as a the person in control of that character, need to keep those actions away out of the spotlight.

Pretty much every bit of this. It's how I feel 100%.
To add to this: I don't think said villains should be made if the person playing them isn't willing to own up to their actions ICly. Otherwise, what's the fun? I can see not wanting to get caught/wanting to be able to get away sometimes, but living a dangerous lifestyle is just that. One can't expect to run around thieving and killing and NOT have SOMETHING happen!

Again, not saying anyone here did it! Just saying that's how I feel one should look at villains and others they've created when stepping outside the law.

Naunet · **01-30-2014, 09:45 PM**

(01-30-2014, 06:57 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I would agree about this... but the problem was that it was happening at like 1:15am. The other character said essentially, well you should be in jail at least a few hours. If it was like 8pm I wouldn't care, I'd have plenty of time to figure out what is going on, we could discuss it. However they wanted to end it with my character in jail, which in order to respect, I would have to refrain from any other RP stuff until they decided to log on and finish the RP tomorrow. I didn't feel like doing that, and I wanted to resolve the issue to some degree before I went to bed so I wouldn't have to sit around all day tomorrow waiting to see if this other person would actually log on.

Fair enough. I'd probably be more liable to fluid time the whole thing and have "a few hours" just happen tomorrow. xD But I'm extremely amenable to pretty much anything happening in RP at all times. Has gotten some characters in rather awkward/uncomfortable/unfortunate/troublesome positions at times, but... meh. I work with it.

McBeefâ„¢ · **01-30-2014, 10:19 PM**

On a side note, because I think people might be curious as to what the fuck I'm actually talking about with this whole thing, here is a text log from me explaining the story to someone else. It is pretty much 100% accurate to the best of my knowledge, and the OOC disagreement occurred when I was carried off to jail and managed to make my way off.

The Log is here

Unfortunately I don't have a log of the actual events, I forgot to save it, but this should help give an idea to the curious. Please don't use this to nitpick details though.

Renee Becquerel · **01-30-2014, 10:43 PM**

(01-30-2014, 10:19 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: On a side note, because I think people might be curious as to what the fuck I'm actually talking about with this whole thing, here is a text log from me explaining the story to someone else. It is pretty much 100% accurate to the best of my knowledge, and the OOC disagreement occurred when I was carried off to jail and managed to make my way off.

The Log is here

Unfortunately I don't have a log of the actual events, I forgot to save it, but this should help give an idea to the curious. Please don't use this to nitpick details though.

Ok, I'm really not trying to place blame anywhere because, by your own account, it sounds like an issue where different people made different mistakes, but you're no longer really respecting the privacy of the other person involved in this after a certain point (i.e. after you've posted a screenshot of their character and chat logs which you didn't fully edit their name out of).

It is entirely possibly this is just me, but focusing on the specifics of who did what as opposed to what lead to what happened isn't so much trying to actually make this a learning experience but instead making someone other than you into the bad guy so you can feel absolved of your part in it.

Personally, I don't really think this is a situation that needs to be dug so deep, or else it has the scent of calling someone out. It seems a little tasteless.

McBeefâ„¢ · **01-30-2014, 10:50 PM**

(01-30-2014, 10:43 PM)Renaud Becquerel Wrote:
(01-30-2014, 10:19 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: On a side note, because I think people might be curious as to what the fuck I'm actually talking about with this whole thing, here is a text log from me explaining the story to someone else. It is pretty much 100% accurate to the best of my knowledge, and the OOC disagreement occurred when I was carried off to jail and managed to make my way off.

The Log is here

Unfortunately I don't have a log of the actual events, I forgot to save it, but this should help give an idea to the curious. Please don't use this to nitpick details though.
Ok, I'm really not trying to place blame anywhere because, by your own account, it sounds like an issue where different people made different mistakes, but you're no longer really respecting the privacy of the other person involved in this after a certain point (i.e. after you've posted a screenshot of their character and chat logs which you didn't fully edit their name out of).

It is entirely possibly this is just me, but focusing on the specifics of who did what as opposed to what lead to what happened isn't so much trying to actually make this a learning experience but instead making someone other than you into the bad guy so you can feel absolved of your part in it.

Personally, I don't really think this is a situation that needs to be dug so deep, or else it has the scent of calling someone out. It seems a little tasteless.

All the people whose names are mentioned in that Chat log have no problem with it, I didn't refer to the other person, I just referred to them as the flame. I don't have any problem with what the person did, I ended up resolving it, but I wanted to get peoples opinions on how to resolve it better in the future. I got lots of good info, so I think the thread was useful. However quite a few people seemed to be misunderstanding what happened, and I thought the scene itself was cool, so I posted a summary.

I didn't intend to call the person out, and as I've said several times, I thought they made the whole situation much more dramatic and interesting. It was only at that one point our view of the situation veered off, which I think was unfortunate.

If people think this is supposed to be a call out (I didn't intend it to be) then I can delete that link and close the thread. It's just that 3-4 people in this thread were actually there, so I thought that the people who weren't might like an Idea about what the rest of use were talking about.

Edit: I just also want to say that after reading the thread I realize I was just as much at fault as the other person was, and I need to be proactive about these sort of things in the future, and think more about the settings I RP in.

Ildur · **01-30-2014, 11:14 PM**

(01-30-2014, 10:43 PM)Renaud Becquerel Wrote: Ok, I'm really not trying to place blame anywhere because, by your own account, it sounds like an issue where different people made different mistakes, but you're no longer really respecting the privacy of the other person involved in this after a certain point (i.e. after you've posted a screenshot of their character and chat logs which you didn't fully edit their name out of).

You are either referencing another log (which I haven't seen) or you did not click on that link. It's just a copy paste of text which, as far as I can tell, has the names of two characters edited out and replaced. There's no screenshot there.

While I do think the log wasn't particulary pertinent to the overall discussion (because it's an IC retelling of the event and not the event itself), I see it as a "This is what happened" more than a "And (Someone Else) was to blame for all of this!". It is important to know the specifics of the situation and how everyone acted to learn anything from it. If you have no details, how can you induct from it and come to a conclusion?

Though, again, what happened seemed clear enough before, so I can understand why you'd think Natalie is trying to place blame instead of just be as clear as possible about the whole thing.

Gabineaux · **01-30-2014, 11:28 PM**

(01-30-2014, 11:14 PM)Ildur Wrote:
(01-30-2014, 10:43 PM)Renaud Becquerel Wrote: Ok, I'm really not trying to place blame anywhere because, by your own account, it sounds like an issue where different people made different mistakes, but you're no longer really respecting the privacy of the other person involved in this after a certain point (i.e. after you've posted a screenshot of their character and chat logs which you didn't fully edit their name out of).

You are either referencing another log (which I haven't seen) or you did not click on that link. It's just a copy paste of text which, as far as I can tell, has the names of two characters edited out and replaced. There's no screenshot there.

While I do think the log wasn't particulary pertinent to the overall discussion (because it's an IC retelling of the event and not the event itself), I see it as a "This is what happened" more than a "And (Someone Else) was to blame for all of this!". It is important to know the specifics of the situation and how everyone acted to learn anything from it. If you have no details, how can you induct from it and come to a conclusion?

Though, again, what happened seemed clear enough before, so I can understand why you'd think Natalie is trying to place blame instead of just be as clear as possible about the whole thing.

I can see the name, replied to, in character..Â Tonberry

Kage · **01-30-2014, 11:35 PM**

(01-30-2014, 11:28 PM)Augustine Frost Wrote:
(01-30-2014, 11:14 PM)Ildur Wrote:
(01-30-2014, 10:43 PM)Renaud Becquerel Wrote: Ok, I'm really not trying to place blame anywhere because, by your own account, it sounds like an issue where different people made different mistakes, but you're no longer really respecting the privacy of the other person involved in this after a certain point (i.e. after you've posted a screenshot of their character and chat logs which you didn't fully edit their name out of).

You are either referencing another log (which I haven't seen) or you did not click on that link. It's just a copy paste of text which, as far as I can tell, has the names of two characters edited out and replaced. There's no screenshot there.

While I do think the log wasn't particulary pertinent to the overall discussion (because it's an IC retelling of the event and not the event itself), I see it as a "This is what happened" more than a "And (Someone Else) was to blame for all of this!". It is important to know the specifics of the situation and how everyone acted to learn anything from it. If you have no details, how can you induct from it and come to a conclusion?

Though, again, what happened seemed clear enough before, so I can understand why you'd think Natalie is trying to place blame instead of just be as clear as possible about the whole thing.

I can see the name, replied to, in character..Â

Not to derail this more into a blame type of situation but I see 3 names who are in this thread and not the one whose privacy would be most "affected" by such a log? Unless I missed it or you are saying that the pastebin was edited.

McBeefâ„¢ · **01-30-2014, 11:36 PM**

(01-30-2014, 11:28 PM)Augustine Frost Wrote: I can see the name, replied to, in character..Â

Whoops sorry, If it counts that's just the person I was talking to, and I cleared it with her before I posted it, but I thought I removed her name anyway (Damn you textpad find and replace). The names mentioned besides Kayah and I weren't actually there.

Again I honestly just thought it was a cool situation and wanted to give the summary. I realize that most of what I was complaining about could have been avoided if I had through things more.

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Seeking advice on dealing with conflict

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