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Ildur · **05-16-2014, 07:17 PM**

Zyrusticae Wrote:It's because of this that Dark Souls fails to retain any semblance of challenge once a player has attained systems mastery

Isn't this true for DMC too? Or any other game? DMC must have some ranking system, else you wouldn't be able to get a rank of any sort. If there's a system in place, then you can attain mastery of it. What does DMC have that allows it to retain the 'semblance of challenge' even after you become a 'master' of it?

Ignacius · **05-16-2014, 09:39 PM**

(05-16-2014, 05:53 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(05-16-2014, 03:24 PM)Ildur Wrote: Clearly achieving a high rank because of combos or whatever requires some form of skill, but isn't it an optional part of the game? If I go play DMC right now, do I need an S rank to beat all the bosses and finish the game?
[snipped for length]
This is almost entirely besides the point. I was particularly responding to this:

(05-16-2014, 02:35 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: Very fast paced hack-and-slash games like DMC don't have (and can't have) the same level of skill-based challenge that games like DS or MH, or even TERA to a degree.
Bolded by me for emphasis.

This is simply a patently false statement. Whether or not the game requires it is immaterial; the game is STILL more than capable of possessing the same level of skill-based challenge and even more so because the mechanics are actually deeper. It's even false to suggest that Dark Souls is less forgiving; certainly at its base level it is less forgiving for actually getting through the game, but trying to S-rank a Platinum game or DMC is easily a match for a Souls games' level of challenge.

The rules change when you make such an attempt: you can only make so many mistakes before you just have to start over. You have to have a level of systems mastery well beyond that which is required to simply 'beat' a game, and to say that the games are easier or cannot have as much skill-based challenge because that baseline exists is simply disingenuous. The Souls games essentially force a rule on the player that says "you can only make this many mistakes before you die" while removing any semblance of 'difficulty settings'; trying to S-rank a character action game is essentially the same thing, only without the sudden death (and even then, there are difficulty settings designed to kill you very, very fast).

To put it another way: if you put the same limitations on the player between a Souls game and a character action game (you die in 'X' amount of hits), the latter will easily breach the former in difficulty simply because there are so many more game elements to keep track of, both in terms of the player toolset and in terms of what the enemies actually bring to the party. A lot of Dark Souls' difficulty, for example, comes from the player actually being limited in what they can do. Your weapons only have a handful of attacks; most of these attacks have lengthy windup and recovery times; your roll has a limited number of invulnerability frames; EVERYTHING you do costs you stamina.

That's one aspect of difficulty, and it's perfectly valid, but a character action game derives part of its difficulty from the fact that the player has a HUGE toolbox and must learn to utilize it effectively. A Souls game effectively hamstrings the player off the bat in the name of making things difficult (which itself is only a means to draw the player into the world further), which is simply not what a character action game is designed to do. It's because of this that Dark Souls fails to retain any semblance of challenge once a player has attained systems mastery; it's not actually a particularly deep game mechanically, it just does a good job of limiting the player to make things difficult and unforgiving.

Anyway, I hope that helps bring across where I'm coming from. From where I'm standing I just can't bring myself to agree with such an absolute statement. Such games can and do have an incredibly high level of skill-based challenge. Perhaps you have to actively seek it to find it, but you can't just deny that it exists.

There are hard parts of World of Warcraft, too, like challenge dungeons. Â They ain't really for the weak. Â I wouldn't say World of Warcraft is a hard game because you can find challenges if you hit endgame and look, it's not the meat and potatoes of the game. Â Hell, you could play through Street Fighter only using light attacks and no specials and you would have, by definition, made the game more difficult. Â The point is, you don't have to, so no, it doesn't really exist in a way we would give it credit for.

DMC wasn't made to be a skill-based game at its core, it's meant to be awesomeâ„¢. Â Dante was essentially a Japanese goth-metal version of Duke Nukem. Â There are things you can do in the game that are harder than the base game, but they're not the base game. Â So no, they may as well not be there. Â If you couldn't keep track of a million things going on at once and survive, you wouldn't make it past the first level of Ikaruga no matter how many extra lives they gave you. Â You could tell someone point blank how to beat a boss, and you'll still die repeatedly trying to get up enough skill to do it. Â Both of these things are devastatingly difficult compared to Devil May Cry.

It's why I wouldn't patently say that WoW is harder than EVE even though WoW's endgame stuff is mindbendingly difficult compared to the F1 whoring in EVE. Â WoW's basic gist of the game, its meat and potatoes, is almost coddlingly simple. Â Even EVE's meat and potatoes, namely doing missions and cosmic anomalies, is at least more difficult than that. Â It doesn't matter that the fight with Garrosh is a toothbreaker in a heroic raid, WoW is just plain easier because it's a lot more forgiving when someone screws up in the body of the game.

And, again, DMC isn't as heavily dependent on your skills to proceed because Capcom made that game to be experienced and enjoyed, not overcome. Â Trust me, Capcom can make you weep blood if they feel like it. Â They've made games where trying to complete ranks is a world away because the game difficulty bashes you on the head and makes you learn to play. Â Hell, I'd say even Monster Hunter is harder than Devil May Cry on its own because it's ENTIRELY skill based and a helluva lot less forgiving.

So, don't get us wrong, it's not like we're saying Devil May Cry wasn't a good game. Â It did exactly what it was supposed to do. Â It was a brilliant fireworks display, but it wasn't meant to be a bludgeon the way some games are. Â If it was supposed to be, it would be and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

On that note, though, I wonder how that Monster Hunter MMO Tencent is developing is coming along. Â If Capcom will be damned for anything, it's not capitalizing on Monster Hunter by really pushing the series in the States and EU. Â Still have to call it the best game series on the planet, and I'd pay good money for a subscription to an ever-expanding, ever developing Monster Hunter world. Â They have every reason to, considering Monster Hunter IV was their best-selling title and their sole representative on the year-end top ten best sellers list last year.

God, I hate Capcom's business prick crust. Â They're in any conversation to name the world's best video game developer and, because of their business wing that markets the games and directs funding, they're missing the open goals. Â Lost Planet, essentially the Sci-Fi version of Monster Hunter? Â Floundering. Â Their Monster Hunter MMORPG? Â Being developed by a Chinese company for China. Â Their cancellation of Mega Man Legends 3 was a slap in the face to their loyal old-school fanbase that is still getting grumbled about whenever I bring the company up. Â Their Resident Evil series, once important enough to have movies made about it, is now a magnet for accusations of racism instead of a font of horror. Â They can thank God Dragon's Dogma turned out better than we thought it might be.

Capcom's business wing even admitted that it was their fault that the company missed expectations last year. Â This year's agenda includes improving game quality by ending outsourcing to other development companies, actually releasing developers to put together some DLC, and retuning their mobile market. Â It's like their business staff have been living under a bridge. Â Did they miss the online gaming phenomenon, Steam, the sudden development of DLC on consoles, and the dramatic upswing in high-quality game titles in an incredibly competitive market? Â Those developments only started in the early 2000s, I guess, so it's not like it's been a decade that they've somehow not grasped the changing nature of what video games constitute.

All I can say is that if their games lineup wasn't born of extremely strong proprietary IPs and that they genuinely seem to be able to develop gems in spite of themselves, Capcom would be tanking right now. Â As it is, they finally saw profits fall and games miss sales targets. Â They need to get serious.

synaesthetic · **05-17-2014, 03:03 AM**

Right. I never said fast-paced hack and slash third-person action titles were bad games. There's a bunch of them that I really enjoy--I absolutely LOVE the Ys series, and they can be challenging games in their own right. All I'm saying is that there's a big difference in actual learned/practiced skill requirements in order to advance between these titles.

We can use shmups as an example, too--games like Gradius, R-Type and the like can be challenging, but they're not even remotely close to the difficulty of Touhou, Mushihimesama, Ikaruga and other bullet hell shooters. Bullet hell shmups are so incredibly unforgiving that you're not going to get anywhere at all without considerable practice. Even with infinite lives, you'd never make it past the first stage without either extensive danmaku experience to begin with or lots of practice with the game itself.

Note they also tend to be far slower paced and place an emphasis on avoidance (and with the case of many Touhou titles, grazing enemy shots as a method of scoring) above racking up kills. This is similar to DS, Monster Hunter and the like.

tbh, I find DS to be tooÂ unforgiving, just like I find most danmaku titles to be too unforgiving. I get stuck and get bored. That's why I loved TERA so damn much despite its pre-F2P issues--the game had that balance between the slaughterfest hack-and-slash of Ys, GoW, etc (especially in the open world and easier endgame content) paired with the emphasis on avoidance and dodging of DS and MH in the bleeding-edge endgame. It had the best of both worlds and I haven't found anything else that really comes close.

Parth Makeo · **05-17-2014, 12:23 PM**

They attempted to make games like DMC before.
S4 league and Gunz the duel for example. Some wall running, gunning and melee action pvp styled arena with "skill" involved...

And by skill i mean "Buy the most OP items on the stop for a couple bucks" kind of skill. Yeah there is a reason why those games are kind of meh. Games that revolve around skill should stay in the realm of single player games on consoles and lobby based shooters not COD wise (Tf2 has a bit of that but you need teamwork still)

MMOs are suppose to be more about Co-operation and a virtual world where one can "escape" to and be something else. There may be some skill but it's not like dodging skills so much. It's more involved with 75% gear and 25% predicting what your opponent will toss at you. Even if there is a "dodge" mechanic, you can't deny that PVP in some regards will still be imbalanced due to gear. It's why i avoid PVP for the most part. No sense when I can't fight back on equal level or terms like in Team Fortress 2 or Tribes Ascend. At least in those games when I make a mistake, it's because i fucked up a shot or ran into something. In PVP it will usually and always be the man with better gear unless you get EXACTLY the same level of gear as that person has.

Also...

Quote:"There are hard parts of World of Warcraft, too, like challenge dungeons."

...No man. Challenge Modes are too easy. Sure the gear is scaled down to raid entry levels but even then a lot of people can carry dead weight in those still.Â
Not to mention the majority of those Challenge Modes is Skipping monsters with invisibility pots. The gist is you have to kill a certain number of enemies (you can go over the min you need but it's wasted time) and get to the last boss in a record time. Some makeups use druids for the stampeding roar+Invis pot combo (If you are a mage just use Greater Invisible perk) and any makeup is capable provided you take the time. With a new group it took us only four tries to get silver and eight to get gold in Scarlet Monastery, and that was suppose to be one of the harder gold medals right next to Shado-Pan which kills melee based classes. Getting bronze at all is just impossible unless you REALLY suck at wow...which is hard to do.

But the Challenge Modes are fun regardless. Only hard part is getting a Realm Best time now but even then all realm best titles like "Darkmaster" are getting removed and those who had at least one get "Mistwalker" title instead.

The hard parts of wow are heroic raids on the patch they were released and finding a stable guild that lasts for more than a year. PVP can also be hard because you need to find a team that will not mock you or kick you out as an excuse for losing one round of rated Battlegrounds. Not to mention the restrictions people put on applications like exact PC specs and even descriptive reasons why you want to join the guild (But that's mainly for the top 1000 guilds of the world really.)
----
Update
If you want some neat reviews of free to play games btw, i suggest MMOgrinder
http://mmogrinder.net/
He was the one who got me mainly into various games I tried. Though be forewarned some of those reviews are old only due to that specific game being no longer around.

Ignacius · **05-18-2014, 09:23 AM**

(05-17-2014, 12:23 PM)Parth Makeo Wrote: They attempted to make games like DMC before.
S4 league and Gunz the duel for example. Some wall running, gunning and melee action pvp styled arena with "skill" involved...

And by skill i mean "Buy the most OP items on the stop for a couple bucks" kind of skill. Yeah there is a reason why those games are kind of meh. Games that revolve around skill should stay in the realm of single player games on consoles and lobby based shooters not COD wise (Tf2 has a bit of that but you need teamwork still)

MMOs are suppose to be more about Co-operation and a virtual world where one can "escape" to and be something else. There may be some skill but it's not like dodging skills so much. It's more involved with 75% gear and 25% predicting what your opponent will toss at you. Even if there is a "dodge" mechanic, you can't deny that PVP in some regards will still be imbalanced due to gear. It's why i avoid PVP for the most part. No sense when I can't fight back on equal level or terms like in Team Fortress 2 or Tribes Ascend. At least in those games when I make a mistake, it's because i fucked up a shot or ran into something. In PVP it will usually and always be the man with better gear unless you get EXACTLY the same level of gear as that person has.

Also...

Quote:"There are hard parts of World of Warcraft, too, like challenge dungeons."
...No man. Challenge Modes are too easy. Sure the gear is scaled down to raid entry levels but even then a lot of people can carry dead weight in those still.Â
Not to mention the majority of those Challenge Modes is Skipping monsters with invisibility pots. The gist is you have to kill a certain number of enemies (you can go over the min you need but it's wasted time) and get to the last boss in a record time. Some makeups use druids for the stampeding roar+Invis pot combo (If you are a mage just use Greater Invisible perk) and any makeup is capable provided you take the time. With a new group it took us only four tries to get silver and eight to get gold in Scarlet Monastery, and that was suppose to be one of the harder gold medals right next to Shado-Pan which kills melee based classes. Getting bronze at all is just impossible unless you REALLY suck at wow...which is hard to do.

But the Challenge Modes are fun regardless. Only hard part is getting a Realm Best time now but even then all realm best titles like "Darkmaster" are getting removed and those who had at least one get "Mistwalker" title instead.

The hard parts of wow are heroic raids on the patch they were released and finding a stable guild that lasts for more than a year. PVP can also be hard because you need to find a team that will not mock you or kick you out as an excuse for losing one round of rated Battlegrounds. Not to mention the restrictions people put on applications like exact PC specs and even descriptive reasons why you want to join the guild (But that's mainly for the top 1000 guilds of the world really.)
----
Update
If you want some neat reviews of free to play games btw, i suggest MMOgrinder
http://mmogrinder.net/
He was the one who got me mainly into various games I tried. Though be forewarned some of those reviews are old only due to that specific game being no longer around.

Hey, I know it seems REALLY easy, seems harder to me than the rest of the game, though. Â And I understand that, after ten years of playing, I'm very likely to under-value game difficulty. Â I just take what I hear from newer players about what's actually difficult, and challenge dungeons consume players with a year or three under their belt.

I'm generally fine because I had to grind dungeons in vanilla. Â That included CC and target marking, often not with the best groups; sometimes, you had to throw together a group with someone using and offspec. Â I still remember doing the Ziggurat event in ZF, back when you needed to finish it to advance. Â We died and failed despite brilliant warrior tanking from my brother because our priest decided to DPS and blew his mana pool.

Challenge mode dungeons might be easier than that, but it seems pretty difficult to someone who hasn't been playing the game for a decade. Â It's definitely harder to get gold ratings on those for people who started post-WotLK, though. Â I mean, I just assume that if you'd played DMC nonstop for ten years, S-rank just wouldn't be an issue if you were in any way competent at the game.

Parth Makeo · **05-18-2014, 12:14 PM**

Kind of...I know some post WOTLK people who were at first put off by the challenge mode but once they got in they managed to get 6/9 gold in patch 5.1 and got the last three just before 5.2 launched. But i understand what you mean. If i was out of shape in wow i too would kind of struggle.Â

But then again Wow is that game where it was made for a more casual audience with the learning curve and the extra bits are just there as a challenge.

But about that DMC comment. I think if you played DMC for 10+ years straight with training, S rank in that term would be a sign of sucking. You wouldn't settle for anything less than SSS if we are talking about legit 10 years of playing/trying it on and off ala Street Fighter Tournament PlayersÂ Tongue

Ignacius · **05-18-2014, 02:17 PM**

(05-18-2014, 12:14 PM)Parth Makeo Wrote: Kind of...I know some post WOTLK people who were at first put off by the challenge mode but once they got in they managed to get 6/9 gold in patch 5.1 and got the last three just before 5.2 launched. But i understand what you mean. If i was out of shape in wow i too would kind of struggle.Â

But then again Wow is that game where it was made for a more casual audience with the learning curve and the extra bits are just there as a challenge.

But about that DMC comment. I think if you played DMC for 10+ years straight with training, S rank in that term would be a sign of sucking. You wouldn't settle for anything less than SSS if we are talking about legit 10 years of playing/trying it on and off ala Street Fighter Tournament PlayersÂ

In that sense, it's kind of amazing that WoW has survived for 10 years on top. Â They've had everyone competing with them, and they're suffering the atophy of time, yet they've survived. Â It's kind of surprising, actually. Â I mean, EVE doesn't really have any meaningful competition; companies have been trying to knock WoW off the pedestal almost immediately after it was released.

Naunet · **05-18-2014, 03:44 PM**

(05-18-2014, 09:23 AM)Ignacius Wrote: It's definitely harder to get gold ratings on those for people who started post-WotLK, though.

Oh man. Did you seriously just pull the "wrath baby" card? Really?

Whether you started playing the game in 2004, 2007, 2009, or 2013 really has no real bearing on one's skill. WoW has changed so dramatically over the years that it's pretty much a completely different game - complete with new spell dynamics and intensely more difficult boss fights - than it was 5, 7, 10 years ago. Just going to put that out there.

Ignacius · **05-19-2014, 08:48 AM**

(05-18-2014, 03:44 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(05-18-2014, 09:23 AM)Ignacius Wrote: It's definitely harder to get gold ratings on those for people who started post-WotLK, though.

Oh man. Did you seriously just pull the "wrath baby" card? Really?

Whether you started playing the game in 2004, 2007, 2009, or 2013 really has no real bearing on one's skill. WoW has changed so dramatically over the years that it's pretty much a completely different game - complete with new spell dynamics and intensely more difficult boss fights - than it was 5, 7, 10 years ago. Just going to put that out there.

Hey, when I was your age, we had to spend whole days farming consumables for the raid we'd inevitably wipe over and over on because our GM's wife was also the healing officer and was routinely horrible. Â And we were happy with it!

Honestly, point taken, except the intensely more difficult boss fights. Â Bosses now are definitely easier than in vanilla, though if you played a spellcaster that might be a different story personally. Â I know affliction warlocks topped DPS charts while barely looking at the boss sometimes; you just had to run the rotation. Â I was a CC/kiting hunter back in the day, and even I felt bad for the melee back then. Â Overall, the game's easier all over. Â I'd say you had to have a bit more skill, in general, to play in vanilla.

Now, with that said, in vanilla, you could carry some more worthless people with you because one bad apple wasn't quite so glaring. Â So the bar has dropped, but if you're still below the bar, it's a lot more noticeable.

Ignacius · **05-19-2014, 01:22 PM**

As promised, though, I stuck through Wildstar until beta closed. Â Figured I'd share my thoughts on it. Â A quick summary is that I've pre-ordered and damn well become a Facebook publicity campaign, and I hate being on Facebook. Â It's that good as I see it. Â But I'll give some evidence on why I think that. Â I'm going to be speaking from the point that everyone's seen the videos on Wildstar's website or have basic knowledge of how the game purportedly works. Â If you haven't, don't feel like watching, and want to ask a question, go ahead and ask me. Â I totally get not wanting to wade through Carbine's promotional material for information or to try to sort through a forum full of trolls and fanbois.

Wildstar's all-star number 1 reason why I've cancelled my other subs is the combat, which is incredibly quick and fluid. Â Most of all, it's very easily tailored, giving you no set way to do anything to maximize damage in any instance. Â This was most easily demonstrated when I was playing my Spellslinger (sort of a gun-toting spell class). Â I was playing a stun-and-gun strategy from range which worked for me. Â During one fight, I noticed that another Spellslinger was literally right on top of the boss and was ducking around him. Â He'd set up his abilities to have a bit more defense and was using a faster skillset than mine, but one that ultimately wouldn't work at range. Â You can also heal from both ranges as a Spellslinger. Â The guy I was talking about even told me he'd once had to tank an instance after the MT died (tanking is a much more fluid and a softer division than in other games). Â That's a lot of variety out of one class that uses pistols.

Another thing I like is the extreme customization. Â I'll not go over all of the stuff Carbine went over in their video except to say you can customize your armor color and visuals, completely customize your (basically free) house, put customized pieces on your mounts, and a few game types, like the mass PVP Warplot gametype, you customize your own environment. Â More than that though, the game feels custom-fit straight through to your statistics and style. Â It isn't just choosing and gearing as a tank/healer/DPS. Â The medic class is actually a short-to-medium ranged healer AND/OR DPS. Â Just about every class in the game has some utility between healing, tanking, and damage. Â The engineer class seems perfectly capable of doing all three, for instance, and it's a pet class with heavy armor.

Aside from those things, mechanically, it's a flurry of speed and reaction. Â It plays a LOT more like an old N64 or PS1 game than a tab-targetted MMORPG. Â The red telegraph bubbles aren't just spheres and lines, they're flying all over the place in crazy geometric patterns as well as having quite a few other abilities. Â More interestingly, you get used to looking for reactions to being stunned, disarmed, and otherwise CCed. Â There's usually a way out if you're fast enough, so really good players never have to cry about being stunlocked for an entire fight. Â That's good because PVP is fast and unforgiving. Â I like the game's difficulty, which ramps up significantly once you hit levels about 10-15, but it might not be for everyone. Â Suffice it to say, the difficulty of the game isn't tied up in the grind (at least not that I saw). Â It's all about being quick on the draw. Â Honestly, it's the first time in a long time that I was killing the same thing for, as I soon discovered, a half hour and wondered how long the quest had been done. Â It's just addictively fun.

Negative items include me needing to buy a new video card. Â While, for example, FFXIV is a bit ponderous but doesn't necessarily punish you for moving slow, Wildstar demands precision. Â Which would be nicer if the game wasn't chewing your resources. Â You can drop the graphics to a point where pretty much anyone can play, but don't let the game's setting and art style fool you, this game drinks your system resources. Â I'm now packing a 3.0 GPU and an FX9590 processor on a Formula V Crosshair Z motherboard with 32 gigs of high speed RAM. Â I can run flawlessly on ultra graphics, but before I put in the new card, the game chopped to 30FPS on my 1.0 card. Â There are a lot of crazy particle effects, PSO style holograms and neons, and a possible draw distance that can make your eyes bleed. Â It's not for a 10 year old computer or a netbook; you'll blow it up.

Another thing that bothered me was the UI. Â Apparently, they redesigned the UI from an even worse one, and in the broad strokes it does what it needs to do. Â Text, however, can be sometimes very hard to read in the default font. Â Buttons on screen you use to access certain information are very small. Â Quest tracking text on the right can sometimes be difficult to read. Â This is a minor gripe, as many issues I had were fixed (probably all the people that complained) and because not only is the UI fixable through menus, but it has a WoW style addon engine. Â Still, I don't like UI addons, so you'll need to play around with the UI so that it works for you.

On a side note, resource nodes can be annoying. Â Generally, Carbine avoids the trap of making you resent other players by rewarding you for helping them. Â Crafting is actually really fun, if a bit less intense than in FFXIV. Â You get quest credit if you and someone else kill something, so you aren't fighting over mobs. Â Given that, it's weird that mining nodes aren't instanced to the character as in FFXIV. Â More than that, you can get a lot of ore from a node using a mining laser, but you can also melee it and break it up, then collect less resources without one. Â That means you've got people who accidentally blow up your resource nodes while fighting (not their intention) even if they aren't collecting the stuff.

Things that I don't mind or don't care about that might bother/excite other people include the art style. Â It's not quite as cartoony in tone as I thought it would be, considering what art presentations you see. Â It's very often bouncing between being amazingly awesome, hysterically funny, and deadly serious. Â I won't get too far into the story in case some people don't want spoilers, but there are genuinely heartfelt moments, one of which made my wife cry. Â Luckily, from there, you're given immediate chance for revenge and your crazy narrator comes in to reassure you that someone is gonna pay. Â It's a frenetic style that I absolutely LOVED TO DEATH! Â I can see that it might seem annoying, but seriously give it a shot and play the free month before you condemn it.

Another thing people might like or not like, the FFXIV weapon-by-class system. Â Armor falls into medium-heavy-light catagories (two classes per armor type) and is actually highly customizeable. Â Bosses drop everyone individual boxes that may or may not contain loot and have low chance of epics, but there's no fighting or ninjaing. Â You can make weapons look like other weapons of their class and play with their stats. Â However, what you can't do is make your heavy-armored engineer look like he's wearing light armor through the costume system, and more importantly your weapon will always be of a certain type. Â Warriors always use great-swords, Spellslingers always use a pair of pistols, etc. Â Hopefully that will be changed eventually, that warriors might get axes and maces as well. Â It's not a thing for me, I don't mind. Â But it's been talked about negatively in beta, so be forewarned that FFXIV's weapon-by-class system is in Wildstar.

Character customization seems to be an ongoing issue. Â I thought Wildstar hit a pretty good balance by making sure all the customization that was important was in the face, but having the body and other features easier to handle. Â Some people thought it was too little, they wanted more sliders on the body, hair, et al. Â I get that. Â It didn't bother me and I got some great looks from what I had available to me. Â Races are incredibly idiosyncratic and fun. Â I was pleasantly surprised and felt satisfied, and I really got into the looks of my characters. Â Some people might not be, though.

Another thing is the focus away from grinding by not giving you a lot of class experience for killing things, but for completing quests, dungeons, PVP, et cetera. Â That shift in focus might annoy some people. Â I like it and see where it was going. Â Some people would rather get most of their EXP from the monster kill grind or individual kills

As a disclaimer, we didn't all have a chance to do everything. Â There are things I didn't have time to do as I took most of the classes up a few levels and experimented with gameplay styles. Â I only ran one dungeon to get a feel for it and only dueled. Â I got no chance to try their top-end PVE or PVP endgame. Â Reception on both of those has been positive from what I've heard, but not universally positive. Â If someone ran to the endgame and can elaborate, please do. Â While I tried all of the classes and paths (all of which I loved to play; they're all extremely entertaining), I did not have a chance to try all professions. Â I only got to play with mount and house customization to a very minimal degree since I didn't make it to a capital city until later in the process when I thought I had a good grasp of the basics of all factions, races, classes, and paths.

So that's what I think. Â As I said, I'm cancelling my other subs now and not planning on buying any other MMOs or expansions until I hear otherwise. Â I'll probably be playing Diablo 3 until then. Â I'll still be around here to talk about the games for a while and I may come back to FFXIV (who knows? Â It's not like FFXIV is a bad game, I just don't like it as much as Wildstar). Â If you want to stay in touch after that, send me a PM and I'll either give you my battle.net ID for Blizzard or a way to stay in touch until early start of Wildstar on the 31st of May (yes, if you preorder, you get to start the game on the 31st instead of the 3rd).

Again, if you have any questions, comments, or want my feedback or input, go ahead and ask. Â I'm excited and really high on the game, but I'm somewhat cynical by nature. Â I'll try to give you as straight an answer as someone with an opinion on the game possibly can.

Naunet · **05-19-2014, 01:24 PM**

No, bosses weren't more difficult. Mechanics in boss fights from vanilla WoW were objectively less complex. Most of the sense of difficulty came from the game (and the genre) being relatively young and "Ooooh must organize 40 people!" The original incarnation of Naxxramas came close (though that was in large part due to its high gear requirement compared to what the majority of players were in), but if you look at the layers of mechanics in the majority of fights across end game content in vanilla WoW, you willÂ see that Blizzard has, over the years, stepped it up quite a bit.

I suggest you read this article. I apologize for trying to shatter your rose tinted glasses but really, don't let nostalgia color history so much.

Parth Makeo · **05-19-2014, 01:35 PM**

(05-19-2014, 08:48 AM)Ignacius Wrote: Honestly, point taken, except the intensely more difficult boss fights. Â Bosses now are definitely easier than in vanilla, though if you played a spellcaster that might be a different story personally. Â I know affliction warlocks topped DPS charts while barely looking at the boss sometimes; you just had to run the rotation. Â I was a CC/kiting hunter back in the day, and even I felt bad for the melee back then. Â Overall, the game's easier all over. Â I'd say you had to have a bit more skill, in general, to play in vanilla.

Vanilla bosses were just as easy man. The thing was that since you had 40 people to take it was more of an annoyance to manage so many which masks the simplicity of said fights.
Onxyia?
Phase 1: Tank takes ony to back wall and everyone on either side. MT must have Fear Ward from Undead/Dwarf Priest
Phase 2: Ony goes in air, whelps come on. AOE whelps and move from her breath path. Range on Ony and melee focus on adds. Range helps melee if too many adds.
Phase 3: Ony lands. Reduce Aggro if you can at all. MT takes only to back wall and rotation of Fear Ward on MT+Healers.Â
GG

Iron Juggernaut in SoO Heroic.
rotates through 2 phases.
Mobile Mode:
Tank faces IJ away from raid. Raid spreads and so do melee but be close to boss. Move out of red death circle fast, avoid drill digs and avoid the saw ricochet. Tanks (Or any DPS with reduced damage CDs) take the three (or five on 25 man) bombs that spawn before they explode and do raid wide damage. Healers worry about dot cast on tanks and others.

Siege mode: At 100 energy IJ plants itself in place. Starts doing raid wide damage overtime and spews tar. Clump up in the position made earlier after tar is gone and heal everyone up to full before shockwave. Get blasted back and stay relatively close for bombs. If you have the lazer RUN IT AWAY FROM THE PUDDLES AND BOMBS! Keep moving out of puddles and staying close. Tanks worry only about taking bomb damage.

When it's close to depleting, adjust yourself to face the opposite direction and do Mobile mode all over again.
---
The fights are simple most of the time but some are RNG dependent and mechanic heavy. Worst one i fought was Heroic Dark Shamans (Which required you to split your raid and position in a certain way while also surviving the abilities as the fight goes on.

The only raid that can be considered the easiest was Dragonsoul (I cleared heroic without an issue and was able to carry two DPS under performing....).
---
Most of the fights in Vanilla are not really tech heavy because of the time. Since Wrath we've been getting fights like Lich King, Heroic Garrosh and even Heroic Nefarian (Which required you to control the rate at which Ony died before the aoe killed you). The size of said raids made them difficult after all.

The only thing i can agree is the fights have been more simplified in terms of strats but as I said before, the raid size shrank to about 25 (20 for heroic in WOD) because trying to command 39 people was aggravating enough. Especially when fifteen of the freaking morons were a close group in the guild -_-.Â

And to make a note, my first character was on Daggerspine alliance called Lamaria. He also had the Master Sargent title...but shortly into BC i lost my account to hackers hard so I had to start fresh on horde with the Account I have to this day Sad

I use to tank Majordomo back in Vanilla and even I saw the fight was just a waiting game. If blue light, no magic, if white light no melee. Kill healer then a dps in rotation. Ignore Majordomo. GG.

Ignacius · **05-19-2014, 01:39 PM**

(05-19-2014, 01:24 PM)Naunet Wrote: No, bosses weren't more difficult. Mechanics in boss fights from vanilla WoW were objectively less complex. Most of the sense of difficulty came from the game (and the genre) being relatively young and "Ooooh must organize 40 people!" The original incarnation of Naxxramas came close (though that was in large part due to its high gear requirement compared to what the majority of players were in), but if you look at the layers of mechanics in the majority of fights across end game content in vanilla WoW, you willÂ see that Blizzard has, over the years, stepped it up quite a bit.

I suggest you read this article. I apologize for trying to shatter your rose tinted glasses but really, don't let nostalgia color history so much.

Actually, I've read that article, and I really don't have to again. Â I played WoW from launch to about three months ago pretty much every day. Â I remember the raids. Â Old raids were more difficult than new ones, it's just that simple. Â New mechanics are easily made to get around, and there are two major reasons why.

First of all, new players don't have to worry about mana so much. Â It might seem weird to remember a time when mana and resources were such a big deal, but there were fights that you didn't lose because of a stacking debuff, but because your healers would run out of mana eventually. Â Ragnaros was the best example of this. Â You could survive two, maybe three lava waves before you were just flat out of mana and wiped. Â That was mitigated as early as BC and stopped being a problem in Wrath. Â Nowadays, if you're OOM, you're doing something wrong as a healer, not coming up against a soft enrage.

The second thing that makes it easier is that it's more of a game focused on the trinity now instead of support. Â I remember having a paladin in our group that threw blessings in rotation and that was all he did. Â I remember having to have a CC kite you had to race in DPS because if he got back with his mob before the second mob died, you wiped. Â Things like that were unforgiving and far more difficult than the dual boss mechanics they've had since.

I think you're misconstruing my point. Â It was harder, but I wouldn't say it was necessarily better. Â Wildstar, for instance, is harder than WoW in a way that's more entertaining. Â Vanilla WoW was harder than modern WoW in a way that I don't entirely miss. Â A few things that really sucked were that you had to grind consumables for elixirs and gear even when you had your set. Â My raiding guild in vanilla was a 3-4 day a week job just to have enough stuff to raid two of those nights. Â On my hunter, I needed to walk into a raid with all my bags filled full of ammo and I'd need to make a trip out and back to get more.

So was it better back in the day? Â I wouldn't necessarily think so. Â At least raiding now is something you can do in a pug that focuses almost exclusively on the event itself, not on preparation and bouncing your head off a wall for a month straight. Â But was it harder? Â Definitely. Â I can speak from experience.

Naunet · **05-19-2014, 01:48 PM**

Your delusion is incredibly powerful, but if it makes you happy... >_>

Ignacius · **05-19-2014, 02:24 PM**

(05-19-2014, 01:48 PM)Naunet Wrote: Your delusion is incredibly powerful, but if it makes you happy... >_>

Hey, I never heard of pugging MC back in the day.

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