(09-01-2015, 11:16 AM)V Wrote:(09-01-2015, 10:44 AM)Oli! Wrote: I guess my question at this point becomes, how so?The crux of your argument appears to rely on absence of evidence (IE "We don't -know- anything. Maybe those are Ishgardians, maybe they're adventurers; maybe they're the Twelve hiding in bodies made of chocolate! We don't know!").
I (and others) on the other hand have presented numerous examples of evidence backing our claim:
-They are commanding presences protecting Ishgardian territory; Ishgardians have never shown a proclivity pre-ARR to rely on anyone's strength but their own.
-Ishgard has been demonstrated to have residents and subjects beyond Hyur/Elezen such as the Roe chef.
-Other races have existed in the region for a thousand years before Ishgard shut its gates.
-Other races have been present as citizens in every single Eorzean city-state (including Ala Mhigo).
-Ishgardian society is centered around xenophobia, classism, and religion; not racism (beyond the racism inherent in high nobility).
It is perfectly acceptable for that evidence not to satisfy you, and it is perfectly acceptable for you to demand more evidence. But you can not say that your argument, which has significantly less grounding in evidence, exists on an equal plane as the counter-argument which is possessed of a great deal more evidence.
And none of that even touches the practical argument: ignoring all evidence to the contrary, what distinct purpose is served by accepting that only Elezen and Hyur exist as citizens within Ishgard? Conversely, what harm is done by accepting that many races exist as citizens within Ishgard (if in significantly smaller numbers)?
The idea that "we don't know" comes from the fact that just as we have evidence that can make your point, we also have evidence that makes a counterpoint:
-- Houses are the ones that stake territory outside of Ishgard.
-- They hire as they see fit, and also hire foreigners. A promise of citizenship for service is not mentioned.
-- In conjunction with this, Dzmael hired a Roegadyn. Whether or not he is a citizen or just a hire is not stated, making it a neutral piece of evidence.
-- Other nations also have soupy enforcement agencies that are not comprised strictly of their citizens.
Not really a point but more of a question: Do we have a date for when Ishgard closed? I tried to look around for one because I can't remember, and the closest thing I found was on the Wiki where they declined to ally after the war with Ala Mhigo.
Either way, we both have points to use. We also both make assumptions off of those points. If how large an assumption is is a point of subjectivity, then we're both on the same footing because subjectivity cam be scaled infinitely in either direction. If there's a quantifiable way of judging the size of assumptions, what would it be?
I really don't think that either of us has a leg-up on the other, hence where "we don't know" stems from.
As far as the practical argument goes, like I said, I don't think it's about "harming" the assumption on either side. It's more about thinking and rationalizing with what we're given. Anyone could have walked into Ishgard and hid in a hole with their family before the gates closed, theoretically, just like anyone could have done with the Garleans, Sharlayans, or anyone else. "Practically," anyone can be anywhere, and doing anything that they want, that isn't explicitly stated as being impossible, like I said a few posts back. But just saying that is neither as exciting nor as convincing as it would be with all the roadblocks discussed, set out on the table, and worked around accordingly, in my opinion.
