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Balken · **08-11-2016, 09:38 AM**

(08-11-2016, 03:22 AM)Valence Wrote: Even a DRK at that level without grit and all might face troubles to keep aggro if the DPS are dealing enough damage and spreading it all over the mobs.

A GLD with flash? lol.

Honestly this is what makes the really low level content a pain for me. I mark, aoe and try to adapt to whatever the dps are doing but even pretty decent end game gear it's a pain when DPS decide to do whatever they want sometimes, especially if they are similarly item level synced, oh my goodness does that hurt @_@

It reaaallly makes me wish GLD got their tanking stance before sword oath, like if they just switched those around would make at least part of that process so much easier!

Gegenji · **08-11-2016, 09:53 AM**

Sadly, you can get that even in current-level content, though. Even against single-target enemies if the DPS decides to straight up UNLOAD before you've really had time to land a few good solid hits. Even moreso if you're the lowest geared character ther.

Had that in Hullbreaker HM... yesterday? Day before? I queued as WAR and we were on the last boss - never had problems with aggro up to that point but, while I was starting up my rotation set... the MCH of all people somehow managed to yank hate off me for a few seconds and get himself killed.

Of course, it's probably because I was going whole hog the entire dungeon, popping cooldowns against everything. So I couldn't open with my usual (and probably incorrect) rotation of Unchained->Infuriate->Inner Beast-Pop Stack-generating cooldowns->Storm's Eye combo->Inner Beast. Getting that off usually gets me enough hate that I can go Deliverance once Unchained (and the pacified debuff from Berserk) fades and just tear into things.

Fortunately (or unfortunately for him, I suppose), him dying "fixed" the aggro problem. So I suppose I was the bad PuG member in that situation, since I wanted to get through the dungeon ASAP and that meant full murder-mode. Blush

Caspar · **08-11-2016, 10:45 AM**

One of the quickest things I've learned from off tanking is that fracture can actually help me take (and keep aggro.) long enough on a single target until the pull is secured with Butcher's Block. Sometimes in normal dungeons it pays to prioritize getting and holding aggro before attempting to land the maximum level of damage. Generally you want to secure with your aggro combo before anything else. As I almost always tank normal dungeon bosses in Deliverance or without Grit to boost damage, unless i forget to alternate my aggro combo in, generally losing single target aggro isn't too big of a problem. In normal dungeons it used to not be uncommon for WAR I knew on my pve server to outdamage randos doing this.

Turning off grit helps me repeatedly use Dark Arts to add boosted Hard Slash and occasionally defensive cooldowns, so I have some aggro leeway to aggressively dps. Though I bet it makes the healer sad, I at least try to regularly self heal and roll all CDs.

Melkire · **08-11-2016, 10:52 AM**

/winces at the above posts

WAR generally doesn't need to lead most pulls with Unchained or Berserk. Sure, it helps a lot and if you can then by all means, but it's not as vital as, say, Fight or Flight to a PLD's pull.

Tomahawk (skip if facepulling, depending on positioning) -> Overpower x2 (modify quantity and/or supplement with Flash as needed) -> Storm's Eye Combo (skip if heavily outgeared) -> Butcher's Block Combo (distribute SS and BB evenly across mobs, always land Heavy Swing on a mob with Eye, land SS and BB preferably on mobs with Eye unless aggro is building fast on those without) -> Overpower/Flash (as needed) -> Gradually Distribute Eye to All Mobs -> Overpower/Flash (as needed) -> "Rotation"

Caspar · **08-11-2016, 10:54 AM**

(08-11-2016, 10:52 AM)Melkire Wrote: /winces at the above posts

WAR generally doesn't need to lead most pulls with Unchained or Berserk. Sure, it helps a lot and if you can then by all means, but it's not as vital as, say, Fight or Flight to a PLD's pull.

Tomahawk (skip if facepulling, depending on positioning) -> Overpower x2 (modify quantity and/or supplement with Flash as needed) -> Storm's Eye Combo (skip if heavily outgeared) -> Butcher's Block Combo (distribute SS and BB evenly across mobs, always land Heavy Swing on a mob with Eye, land SS and BB preferably on mobs with Eye unless aggro is building fast on those without) -> Overpower/Flash (as needed) -> "Rotation"

I thought he was talking about single target? I usually do fine without using Overpower on single targets, even if it is very generous at generating aggro. If it is a group you absolutely must overpower before any combos.

Melkire · **08-11-2016, 10:58 AM**

(08-11-2016, 10:54 AM)Caspar Wrote: I thought he was talking about single target? I usually do fine without using Overpower on single targets, even if it is very generous at generating aggro. If it is a group you absolutely must overpower before any combos.

Omit all AoE enmity generators on a single-target pull, of course.

P.S. There's no enmity multiplier on IB, don't rely on it to generate hate even if it does have a decently-high potency. It's more for mitigation; you can lead with Foresight or Raw Intuition or Vengeance at the start of a pull and transition into IB later. Steel Cyclone is amazing on groups, though. With the multiplier, it's stronger than Overpower.

Gegenji · **08-11-2016, 11:02 AM**

To be fair, I tend to blank on using Overpower/Flash when it's single target. For groups I'll use them - and also tend to use my stacks for Steel Cyclone instead of Unchained/Inner Beast - and my rotation more fits along what you have there, Melkire. Honestly, I just like using Unchained/Berserk in my opening pull for bosses just for that added bit of initial damage and threat... and I feel like the Berserk timer is a good easy marker of "okay, I should have enough aggro now, time to go Deliverance." Which may be the wrong way to look at it. Blush

Then again, I also don't Cross-Class Awareness, so I'm already a Bad WAR. Laugh

(08-11-2016, 10:58 AM)Melkire Wrote: P.S. There's no enmity multiplier on IB, don't rely on it to generate hate even if it does have a decently-high potency. It's more for mitigation; you can lead with Foresight or Raw Intuition or Vengeance at the start of a pull and transition into IB later. Steel Cyclone is amazing on groups, though. With the multiplier, it's stronger than Overpower.

Posts came while I was writing up mine! I'm glad I'm not missing the boat by not OP/Flashing single targets. In regards to this bit here, I mostly just use IB because I have full stacks and feel a BURNING NEED to use them. Another sign of being a bad WAR, I suppose.

Melkire · **08-11-2016, 11:45 AM**

I can think of only three scenarios in which to not burn Wrath/Abandon stacks.

1. A tank-buster is on the way and you're going to need to time IB for it.
2. Unchained is about to come off cooldown.
3. You're waiting for cooldown timers to line up for triple FC.

Otherwise, burn stacks as soon as you hit five of them depending on what you need:

Mitigation (Inner Beast)
AoE Enmity (Steel Cyclone)
Single-Target Burst (Fell Cleave)
AoE Burst (Decimate)

Gegenji · **08-11-2016, 11:49 AM**

Okay, so I'm doing that part right then. Well, mostly. As I mentioned, I just use IB for the stacks when Unchained for the extra damage. Otherwise, in single target fights, it's almost always being used on Fell Cleaves. Laugh

Valence · **08-11-2016, 12:12 PM**

(08-11-2016, 09:53 AM)Gegenji Wrote: the MCH of all people somehow managed to yank hate off me for a few seconds and get himself killed.

I bet that MCH unleashed his full burst opener without even bothering to use quelling strikes (or even didn't even have that crossclass). MCH burst phase can be similarly as scary as BLM.

(08-11-2016, 10:45 AM)Caspar Wrote: One of the quickest things I've learned from off tanking is that fracture can actually help me take (and keep aggro.) long enough on a single target until the pull is secured with Butcher's Block. Sometimes in normal dungeons it pays to prioritize getting and holding aggro before attempting to land the maximum level of damage. Generally you want to secure with your aggro combo before anything else. As I almost always tank normal dungeon bosses in Deliverance or without Grit to boost damage, unless i forget to alternate my aggro combo in, generally losing single target aggro isn't too big of a problem. In normal dungeons it used to not be uncommon for WAR I knew on my pve server to outdamage randos doing this.

Turning off grit helps me repeatedly use Dark Arts to add boosted Hard Slash and occasionally defensive cooldowns, so I have some aggro leeway to aggressively dps. Though I bet it makes the healer sad, I at least try to regularly self heal and roll all CDs.

I generally prefer as a heal that tanks keep their defensive stance so that I don't have to heal them besides the usual regen and a few medicas here and there for boss AoEs.

I tend to think (maybe wrongly) that not having to lose so much time switching from cleric to heal actually makes me boost the party DPS significantly.

Caspar · **08-11-2016, 12:33 PM**

(08-11-2016, 12:12 PM)Valence Wrote:
(08-11-2016, 09:53 AM)Gegenji Wrote: the MCH of all people somehow managed to yank hate off me for a few seconds and get himself killed.

I bet that MCH unleashed his full burst opener without even bothering to use quelling strikes (or even didn't even have that crossclass). MCH burst phase can be similarly as scary as BLM.

(08-11-2016, 10:45 AM)Caspar Wrote: One of the quickest things I've learned from off tanking is that fracture can actually help me take (and keep aggro.) long enough on a single target until the pull is secured with Butcher's Block. Sometimes in normal dungeons it pays to prioritize getting and holding aggro before attempting to land the maximum level of damage. Generally you want to secure with your aggro combo before anything else. As I almost always tank normal dungeon bosses in Deliverance or without Grit to boost damage, unless i forget to alternate my aggro combo in, generally losing single target aggro isn't too big of a problem. In normal dungeons it used to not be uncommon for WAR I knew on my pve server to outdamage randos doing this.

Turning off grit helps me repeatedly use Dark Arts to add boosted Hard Slash and occasionally defensive cooldowns, so I have some aggro leeway to aggressively dps. Though I bet it makes the healer sad, I at least try to regularly self heal and roll all CDs.

I generally prefer as a heal that tanks keep their defensive stance so that I don't have to heal them besides the usual regen and a few medicas here and there for boss AoEs.

I tend to think (maybe wrongly) that not having to lose so much time switching from cleric to heal actually makes me boost the party DPS significantly.

I couldn't say. I don't perceive myself to be taking a huge amount of damage because I try to CD efficiently, whereas I'm also very out of touch with balance changes. Most of my knowledge is from STR accessories on tanks days and during that time the tank I learned from generally outdamaged the rando dps. In our raids healer dps was usually inferior despite ours having to be aggressive to make up for a somewhat anemic BLM.

Melkire · **08-11-2016, 12:58 PM**

(08-11-2016, 12:12 PM)Valence Wrote: I tend to think (maybe wrongly) that not having to lose so much time switching from cleric to heal actually makes me boost the party DPS significantly.

No amount of extra healer DPS from a few more seconds of Cleric Stance is ever going to outweigh a Warrior in Deliverance. Fell Cleave crits are just that large a burst (pre-VIT change, a FC from a i210 Warrior back during Gordias Savage would rival Fire IV from a BLM for biggest single burst from a crit - approximately 11k, iirc, outside of Ravana Vuln Up scenarios). This is still the case post-VIT changes.

I can't speak for DRK or for PLD, but I know this to be the case for WAR.

McBeefâ„¢ · **08-11-2016, 01:19 PM**

(08-11-2016, 12:58 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(08-11-2016, 12:12 PM)Valence Wrote: I tend to think (maybe wrongly) that not having to lose so much time switching from cleric to heal actually makes me boost the party DPS significantly.

No amount of extra healer DPS from a few more seconds of Cleric Stance is ever going to outweigh a Warrior in Deliverance. Fell Cleave crits are just that large a burst (pre-VIT change, a FC from a i210 Warrior back during Gordias Savage would rival Fire IV from a BLM for biggest single burst from a crit - approximately 11k, iirc, outside of Ravana Vuln Up scenarios). This is still the case post-VIT changes.

I can't speak for DRK or for PLD, but I know this to be the case for WAR.

Just have your healers and tanks both be in DPS stance. Fell Cleaves are disgusting and by far the largest hits in the game outside of abilities like wildfire.Â

https://www.fflogs.com/reports/yMPKR6V7h...amage-done

It's possible if you know the fight well, both healers and tanks can do decent dps (about 1/3 of the dps in our static). Obviously in pugs it's a lot harder. I typically just do dps stance on bosses, as they actually tend to hit weaker than large pulls (and are easier to keep aggro on).

Valence · **08-11-2016, 05:11 PM**

(08-11-2016, 12:58 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(08-11-2016, 12:12 PM)Valence Wrote: I tend to think (maybe wrongly) that not having to lose so much time switching from cleric to heal actually makes me boost the party DPS significantly.

No amount of extra healer DPS from a few more seconds of Cleric Stance is ever going to outweigh a Warrior in Deliverance. Fell Cleave crits are just that large a burst (pre-VIT change, a FC from a i210 Warrior back during Gordias Savage would rival Fire IV from a BLM for biggest single burst from a crit - approximately 11k, iirc, outside of Ravana Vuln Up scenarios). This is still the case post-VIT changes.

I can't speak for DRK or for PLD, but I know this to be the case for WAR.

For a warrior, possibly. Although warriors are even more annoying to heal in that regards considering that their mitigation is atrocious and they have huge amounts of HP to compensate.

The problem is mostly when you are trying to pop your own cooldowns like Presence of Mind and don't want to be disturbed at any cost. When your warrior is dropping like a fly while you are casting all you have, it wastes the whole thing.

But yeah, I can guess that deliverance warriors are probably better that way.

Kilieit · **08-12-2016, 09:36 AM**

FATEs count, right?

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this is my luck whiplash for getting 7 komajiro medals in about 10 FATEs earlier tonight, isn't it?

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