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Harmonixer · **05-24-2015, 02:59 PM**

Something to keep in mind for 'bad guy' RP is that generally just means you have an opposite view of who else you are RPing and may or may not be trying to intentionally be conflicting.

I don't believe it to be a good idea to outright claim to be an antagonist without a goal and gameplan for what's to come. I also have a bias to vagueness and subtlety.

Having RP'd villains for quite some time, it's easier to just observe people. Yes, you have to creep a little. Reading character sheets, study their habits in character and sometimes if you really want to fuck with someone roll and alt and just throw things out to gauge reactions.. Get into peoples heads. Ask questions if you can, find out their fears and prey on them.

From there, you can tailor a character for specific intents and see where YOUR RP fits in with theirs.

Do you simply just want to be a dick?

Are you trying to help their character grow?

Or just yourself?

I've said it to friends many times before, but sometimes my villain characters came to be simply by disagreeing with someone. They made me into an enemy without a lot of effort on my part and everything fell into place. Other times I communicate to them OOCly and as how they would feel about having something like, a rival or if they would like to help me for my RP.

Most of the time from what I've observed- RP is a self serving practice.

It's rarer to come across people who want to really entertain others and not just themselves. You'll tend to have much richer and engaging experiences from people who want to work off each other than say your average white knight that needs a reason for his nightly erp.

If you are content with just being a 'bad guy' then settle for old tropes and be mostly prepared to be forgotten shortly after you start.

If you want to really be known as 'that one dood who kinda made me the badass i am today, but not before he wrecked my shit' then you'll have to work for it. Just as well, you should grow just as much as they have if it turns out right.

Simple repetition is okay. Pick habits, but focus on motivations and tactics. Set goals for yourself and try to reach them. Prepare to deviate as needed but always seek to reach them eventually.

Also, it helps if you aren't actually a dickbag. Don't be mean simply to do it. This is for entertainment for all parties and should be enjoyable. It's a shared form of media. It's art, respect it and you'll always do well.

Emberhair · **05-24-2015, 05:11 PM**

(05-24-2015, 02:51 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Curious language here. Are we talking villains, or "bad" people? Heroes/Villains are a clear cast, but being a dick isn't exclusive to one side or the other. You can be a massive jerk and still be a hero on the front lines of war for your Grand Company. Similarly, as Telluride pointed out, you can be a charming schmoozing schemer everyone adores who plans to ruin the world.

You're absolutely right, no one is an archetype and thats what my opening post was addressing.Â

It was more a question. I was asking what peoples personal experiences were when roleplaying a bad guy. By bad guy, i can mean villain, unlikeable person or anywhere in between. Im speaking VERY generally. Simply stating about characters that lean more towards chaos than lawful good, in whatever shape or form. How does the community react to your play style when you RP as one of these characters?

Emberhair · **05-24-2015, 05:18 PM**

UPDATE: I roleplayed as my Duke's Bratty Son character in the quicksand today and it was a huge success. The two people i roleplayed with told me it was a lot of fun and they were really intrigued by him. They even forgot about roleplaying with eachother and were both just bouncing off me. We all had a great time.Â

That was completely spontaneous by the way, no linkshell or fc. So it can be done guys! Just find the right peeps! Smile

Gone. · **05-24-2015, 05:36 PM**

Frankly you're already on the right track. You're communicative and respectful to the players around you and that goes a long way in any RP, antagonistic or not.

I don't agree that playing a villain will necessarily net you better RP in the long run as Blue said, nor do I think playing a good natured character decrease one's chances of maturing; to be honest, I find that insinuation absurd when there's infinitely more ways to grow outside of morality. Even then, there's plenty of angsty and/or edgy sorts out there that are some combination of bland, laughable, one-dimensional or just straight-up offensive making the 'darker' side of things all that much more of a shallow pool to pick from.

I do, however, agree that OOC bonding helps a lot, though once again, this goes for all RP, especially anything that goes past a casual level. Also think Harmonixer asks a lot of good development questions, though I'd definitely pass on the OOC stalking and just straight up ask. Some people just won't be interested no matter what, you know?

In regards to my personal experiences; they're similar to Khaine's with a character that has some of the issues Telluride describes. In this case, it's my beloved but much maligned Foxglove Kyo.

To preface: I personally would not consider her a villain, though I think some would given her previous, albeit relatively short blood-soaked Garlean service. For me she is more of antiheroine, or at least that is the direction I'm trying to go in given a number of her inspirations (Think Nicholas Winding Refn's protagonists, Snake Plissken, Lady Snowblood, countless leading ladies in the Shaw Brothers erotica canon, Walter E. Kurtz, etc.)

At first meet, she's typically defensive or otherwise off-putting, sometimes even creepy and/or downright mean. While her reasons for being this way are both sympathetic and entirely understandable, it still hasn't prevented Foxglove from earning a negative reputation within the community. This has left her frequently dismissed before she has a chance to shine with her more charming, compassionate side she keeps locked away.

That's the thing; she's not a sociopath, just a multi-dimensional character made of numerous, conflicting layers. There are times where she misses all that power and control, sure, but ultimately she has remorse for her actions, frequently haunted by them in her thoughts and dreams despite any questionable desires that may still linger.

On the one hand, you have to develop the character right and play them thusly. On the other, there's also that reliance on the players around you to do their part, as well. Unfortunately today's average roleplayer lacks the patience for anything more than positive, casual interactions that satisfy on the short-term. Long-term plotting just really isn't in vogue, certainly not in the 'mainstream' if you will.

This combined with every other issue previously mentioned puts characters like ours at a great disadvantage. Sad, but unfortunately true. That said, if you truly love what you're playing, then by all means, keep at it; you may not find them tomorrow, but there's someone out there's that's going to appreciate what you're doing and it's going to be worth the wait. It almost always is.

Khaine · **05-24-2015, 05:40 PM**

(05-24-2015, 05:18 PM)Emberhair Wrote: UPDATE: I roleplayed as my Duke's Bratty Son character in the quicksand today and it was a huge success. The two people i roleplayed with told me it was a lot of fun and they were really intrigued by him. They even forgot about roleplaying with eachother and were both just bouncing off me. We all had a great time.Â

That was completely spontaneous by the way, no linkshell or fc. So it can be done guys! Just find the right peeps!

That is great to hear, I can only hope I have the same luck the next time I give it a go.

Sophia_Grave · **05-24-2015, 05:41 PM**

One of these days I'm going to do a write up for playing the antagonist in RP, but primarily, it comes down toÂ communication and planning. Everyone involved (OOC-wise, of course) needs to be okay with your antagonist screwing things up for them, and you yourself need to be prepared for long term consequences for your character.

I also like to work toward a clear goal that forcibly involves others. Its easy to be avoidant or run away for either side, and that's no fun, since conflict is the whole point.

And remember, being simply a rude jerkface is a world's difference from playing theÂ bad guy.

cuideag · **05-24-2015, 06:43 PM**

I play a not very nice person who has, on occasion, definitely sat on the villain side of the line. It's been said a few times already and because it is a very, very important thing I will say it again: communication. I've had to coordinate a lot more on the OOC level than I have with any other character. Figuring out directions to take stories and plots, developments and characterization, and the ever important making sure that folks don't get OOC burned by whatever IC stuff goes on.

Also something I have found to be very important to consider: motivations. It's well and good being a jerk, but if your character is a jerk for the sake of being a jerk then it might read more like a gimmick than genuine characterization. Also super important to keep in mind that being a jerk will have its consequences. Another reason why OOC communication is super important. My lady avoids places like, say, the Quicksand because it makes zero sense for someone with a record like hers to just shoot the breeze in so public a place. She's had several attempts at her life and doesn't really have a lot of people she would call friends so really it's been kind of a lonely life for her. But communication and coordination can help you keep things rolling and keep yourself and whoever you RP with involved so you don't end up feeling isolated because, well, your character is a jerk!

Hammersmith · **05-25-2015, 01:03 AM**

Badguys are inherantly antagonistic.

Which means they're also inherantly disruptive to RP

Which means they're not a lot of fun to play outside of the GM/ST position.

Which means they're disposable and are inherently a mayfly position. Â

No one here is playing a real Badguy if they're attached to their char. Â The best you can muster is morally grey.

Anything more means you're either being a jerkwad or you're running a story for other people.

One is alright.

The other means you should probably stop RPing

industrythirteen · **05-25-2015, 01:23 AM**

I love playing villainous characters. I love it when others play villainous characters, too. One of my friends from AION played one of the best villains I've ever seen in an mmo. He had one pretty simple rule he followed, which was in order to give the character shelf life, the character needs to believe that deep down, what they are doing is right. There is no muwahaha-ing from the evil laboratory, no kicking puppies or stealing candy from babies. No mustache-twirling. No brooding edge-lording off in a corner. I suppose anyone can do that, but it's just window-dressing at that point. For me, it is the sincerity in what that character believes, and a willingness to do things and get things done in a way that may appear to be selfish, cold, and calculating, even inhuman. Those methods may be cold and emotionless, but they may none the less be the most expedient measures to solving whatever problem that character is facing.Â

But, above all, I feel that if I am to play such a character, I must, at all times, without exception, talk to everyone whom I get involved with at any level. I must tell them what I am up to, and I must, must, must have their consent, managing the conflict as tightly as possible on an OOC level. I have seen roleplayers on the defensive, I have been on the defensive as well, when I've felt people have just neglected to get my consent or given me the simple courtesy of a conversation. It is an ugly, ugly thing. When I've talked with people, I've been able to give our audience a much better show, a better storytelling and roleplaying experience. Prepare for tit-for-that; winning some and losing some scenarios. My priority is first and foremost, to those viewing the scene, should there be other folks around.Â

I also think that these characters do have a limited shelf life, regardless of how well they are played, handled and managed. The villain or antagonist in any story is generally an obstacle to be defeated. However, roleplay is unique in that it deviates from a typical story-telling structure, where the concept on Sonder comes into play. When I play a villainous character, I want that character to eventually be shaped into something new, as the fall and redemption are tropes of which I am particularly fond. Not everyone is into that, but I'm pretty sure if my character is not challenged, if that character is not changing, my character is probably dying.

Nebbs · **05-25-2015, 02:36 AM**

Yes I have plays the whole range.

I think you hit the nail on the head in the OP, in that others will want to play with you or not based on their attitude, though also from an OOC enjoyment point of view.

So No 1 - be an enjoyable character to RP with by enabling others to play their characters.
Â guy...

Loveable - the rouge the bad person who is really a good person, these are easy enough to play and it can be a light dusting of bad applied.

Flawed - your character has a flaw which makes them bad but people can relate to them and will accept them as friends and associates.

Redeemed - you were bad but now you are good. So you act good but with flavours of bad and people can hate you for your past.

Necessary Evil - they don't like you, their friends don't like you, but they have no option than to deal with you. Become unnecessary and expect them to turn on you.

Enemy - here you will be the target of ..well rejection, hunted and death. Don't expect to be with the others as a player, in some aspects you are an NPC to them.

Just to reiterate, whatever you play let your self be engaging and enabling of others RP.Â

Qhora Bajihri · **05-25-2015, 03:57 AM**

I "always" play the "bad guy". First quotes for don't always, and second quotes for whatever it is we're really talking about here.

Whatever they are, they tend to have negative qualities, like arrogance and narcissism, along with questionable morality, but they have to be capable of playing with others at some level, even if it's begrudging acceptance that they can't crash the moon into the planet without a little help somewhere along the line.

My current character did the Face-Heel Turn. She was sweet and good, and now she's a seething ball of hate that makes her "difficult" to RP, but she has a job that keeps her able to work with others when necessary. Quotes for difficult, because there are plenty of tricksy ways for a creative player to have fun with an unpleasant character without sabotaging or outright destroying interactions with others.

I prefer the jerk on the outside roles, whether actually morally questionable or simply misguided with an attitude, but when playing with strangers, I keep the reins on to some degree. I might be more sarcastic than outright offensive, or I'll use body language to convey opinions rather than outright say what she might be thinking.

I find it difficult to play the charming with ulterior motives type, but I think those can be some of the most frightening when it's discovered what they're really up to.

And I've had the same "stealing all the girls despite not caring at all about girls" situation Blue mentioned develop across multiple characters. I always thought of it as a black leather jackets and motorcycles sort of situation. They just seem so cool and aloof, smoking a cigarette and glaring at everyone else's cheer and friendliness. And there's something to the wanting to fix them, too. Maybe that's a better way to think of it than bad guys and heroes. Some people gotta be the snarky assholes racing their motorcycles down suburban streets in the middle of the night. Yes, they're bad guys but they're not "bad guys," really, even if they are professional thieves or hit men or assassins or what have you.

As for villainy, I don't mind filling that role, but it's hard to do as a main character, I think, yes. Much easier to do as a side character in someone else's story. Even my most moustache-twirling character was in a guild full of moustache-twirlers, so when you're just one of many, there's a sort of uneasy camaraderie that doesn't feel as villainous as it does standing alone against the white knight whose girlfriend you just tied to the train tracks. Which I had the occasional opportunity to do to much gleeful effect, but it wasn't his everyday life.

Ashe · **05-25-2015, 04:09 AM**

My character is like...the most awful person ever. Â Like I mean even I wouldn't be friendly towards him (it's amazing some characters are). Â I think people more respect the fact that he's smart rather than like him because he's so unlikable. Â

Ashe became a jerk by accident though. Â I was OOCly frustrated with the lot I was RPing with early early on. Â Like SUPER early on. He was only supposed to be arrogant, but not really a "bad guy." But he turned into this asshole with a HUGE chip on his shoulder and then became wannabe super villain. Â I've had people get mad at me OOCly because they thought I was mad OOCly when I was just RPing Ashe...that and I've been told he's very difficult to RP with by people who have characters who just want to have fun.Â

I'm going out of my way to change him now. Â Trying to ICly move him to where he will have a change of heart. Â I've been working on making him nicer too. Â Being the super villain was just too much ahaha.

Emberhair · **05-25-2015, 07:27 AM**

(05-25-2015, 04:09 AM)Ashe Wrote: My character is like...the most awful person ever. Â Like I mean even I wouldn't be friendly towards him (it's amazing some characters are). Â I think people more respect the fact that he's smart rather than like him because he's so unlikable. Â

Ashe became a jerk by accident though. Â I was OOCly frustrated with the lot I was RPing with early early on. Â Like SUPER early on. He was only supposed to be arrogant, but not really a "bad guy." But he turned into this asshole with a HUGE chip on his shoulder and then became wannabe super villain. Â I've had people get mad at me OOCly because they thought I was mad OOCly when I was just RPing Ashe...that and I've been told he's very difficult to RP with by people who have characters who just want to have fun.Â

I'm going out of my way to change him now. Â Trying to ICly move him to where he will have a change of heart. Â I've been working on making him nicer too. Â Being the super villain was just too much ahaha.

If you're set on changing him, then by all means its your character, but it does make me sad to hear this.Â

You shouldn't have to change what you want to do based on bad experiences. HOWEVER, it sounds like you're bringing a lot of aggro to your RP if it has potential to spill over like that. I would suggest instead of making him good or switching him around, find some brand new RP people to test a more toned down version of your character on.Â

I think this is an important point to raise so i will do it here:Â

THE TERM "GODMODDING", DOES NOT AND SHOULD NOT JUST REFER TO POWER, BATTLE AND ABILITIES.

What i mean by this, is that more chaotic characters should not be godmodders in personality either. If you're brushing people off or outright abusing them; thats godmodding. If your character absolutely CANNOT be convinced of doubt even slightly or make them upset; thats godmodding.

Chaotic people are exactly that; PEOPLE. They will have weakness. People should be able to shake their foundations with words as well as weapons.

Warren Castille · **05-25-2015, 10:42 AM**

Something to consider that's fairly unique to the roleplaying side of writing: "Bad guy" RP comes with its own bundle of stereotypes and assumptions. Everyone's probably had experience with the tryhard edgelord guy who angsts for the sake of angsting, or the person who willfully makes the "wrong" decision to make things as complicated as possible for the sake of "story."

When we have limited windows to spend our free time, and we choose to spend them on roleplay, it can be incredibly frustrating to "waste" an evening on someone who's only using public interaction to further distance themselves as a brooding loner who is totally misunderstood, you guys, and he's got all sorts of personal demons that only he and he alone can combat. As a result, some roleplayers (myself included for the most part) aren't willing to risk letting someone being a prick into their world and canon, if only because others have wasted previous time in the past.

Antiheroes and difficult-to-befriend-jerks-with-hearts-of-gold are sometimes overdone archetypes, and they (like anything else) are often done poorly. I've probably missed out on some interesting scenarios because of my unwillingness to take a risk, but I can guarantee I've saved myself some grief in the long run, too.

My hat's off to anyone managing to make the gimmick work, though. Your contemporaries have done a good job of trying to ruin the space.

Mae · **05-25-2015, 11:25 AM**

In other games, other RP communities, I've seen bad guys (the unpleasant jerks and the villains) thrive for years time. Part of it is server/community/group climate, the other part is the actual work they did, both in developing the character and socially.

OOC connections/communication/presence seemed to be key for them. OOCly these were some of the nicest and most social people in the community, which probably helped smooth things over when things got hairy. People are also more likely to compromise with someone they're friends with, so for the villains this allowed them to have a much more 'enjoyable' ratio of wins to losses in confrontations -- meaning they're not always getting curb-stomped.

For the villains, their motivations were reasonable and well-thought out. None of them were mustache-twirlers doing evil for the sake of doing evil. They were businessmen and researchers who didn't care about laws, morals, and who they stepped (or tested) on. Religious leaders who followed evil gods, but was on a mission of conversion rather than a mission to sacrifice everyone they come across. One that was entirely focused on bringing down a government organization he thought was corrupt (granted, it -was-, but that was OOC knowledge) that everyone who showed even a bit of sympathy/cooperation with the organization became a target too. One that I remember hearing about, he had periods where he just went feral, akin to one of those man-eating tigers that sometimes go on a rampage around settlements, and the rest of the time he was fairly normal and no-one suspected him. A unit of soldiers that was 'disowned' while still behind enemy lines (I know there's an actual military term for this, I just can't remember it).

The unpleasant jerks, they often had either an important skill that kept people coming back to see them/'force them' to attempt to be social, or had some redeeming quality/trait that they'd occasionally pull out for a few moments. Healers who hate everyone and weren't afraid to scream it from the rooftops, grumpy town/local guards who have a soft spot for kids. An extreme racist who loudly speaks about how the others are filth, but is one of the first to jump to save someone regardless of race because "you may be below me, but a life is still a life". Also consider that being an unpleasant jerk doesn't always mean being the grump. I've seen snobs who don't realize they're being condescending and unbearable. And that guy who swoops and and saves a woman from an 'uncivil' situation, only to turn around and reveal to be chauvinistic pig himself.

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Roleplaying the bad guy

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes