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LiadansWhisper · **11-24-2015, 07:47 PM**

Well Turkey already warned Russia that if they kept violating Turkish air space, they would be met with force. This has been going on for a while. Turkey tried talking to Russia and asking them to back off, and Russia basically giggled and did whatever the hell it wanted to do. So I, for one, am not surprised at all that this happened.

Sylentmana · **11-25-2015, 01:17 PM**

The problem with these situations is that neither side thinks about the human lives being lost. Instead they treat it like something not human and only care about statistics and results. Meanwhile, innocent people who only wanted to live their lives in peace die because some "leaders" tucked away in their cushy offices and homes gave an order. War is stupid.

LiadansWhisper · **11-25-2015, 02:02 PM**

(11-25-2015, 01:17 PM)Sylentmana Wrote: The problem with these situations is that neither side thinks about the human lives being lost. Instead they treat it like something not human and only care about statistics and results. Meanwhile, innocent people who only wanted to live their lives in peace die because some "leaders" tucked away in their cushy offices and homes gave an order. War is stupid.

All Turkey was doing is protecting it's airspace (and people) from a foreign power. Like I said, Russia has been doing this for quite some time, and Turkey explicitly warned them after the last incident that they would respond with force if Russia continued with the behavior.

Warren Castille · **11-25-2015, 03:11 PM**

Global politics seldom boil down to "Guys, be nice."

Sylentmana · **11-25-2015, 06:03 PM**

(11-25-2015, 02:02 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(11-25-2015, 01:17 PM)Sylentmana Wrote: The problem with these situations is that neither side thinks about the human lives being lost. Instead they treat it like something not human and only care about statistics and results. Meanwhile, innocent people who only wanted to live their lives in peace die because some "leaders" tucked away in their cushy offices and homes gave an order. War is stupid.

All Turkey was doing is protecting it's airspace (and people) from a foreign power. Like I said, Russia has been doing this for quite some time, and Turkey explicitly warned them after the last incident that they would respond with force if Russia continued with the behavior.

Irrelevant to the meaning behind my post. People are being killed because neither side is capable of seeing each other as humans. People are being killed when they should not be. That's all I care about.

Warren Castille · **11-25-2015, 06:27 PM**

(11-25-2015, 06:03 PM)Sylentmana Wrote:
(11-25-2015, 02:02 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(11-25-2015, 01:17 PM)Sylentmana Wrote: The problem with these situations is that neither side thinks about the human lives being lost. Instead they treat it like something not human and only care about statistics and results. Meanwhile, innocent people who only wanted to live their lives in peace die because some "leaders" tucked away in their cushy offices and homes gave an order. War is stupid.

All Turkey was doing is protecting it's airspace (and people) from a foreign power. Like I said, Russia has been doing this for quite some time, and Turkey explicitly warned them after the last incident that they would respond with force if Russia continued with the behavior.

Irrelevant to the meaning behind my post. People are being killed because neither side is capable of seeing each other as humans. People are being killed when they should not be. That's all I care about.

It's a lot more in-depth than that. It goes back generations, past the Cold War. It's not just "people" it's entire cultures and countries.

Your sentiment is positive, and I agree, but it isn't as simple as just wanting them to stop.

LiadansWhisper · **11-25-2015, 06:30 PM**

Sylentmana Wrote: Irrelevant to the meaning behind my post. People are being killed because neither side is capable of seeing each other as humans. People are being killed when they should not be. That's all I care about.

I think it's a bit silky to assume you know that these people don't "recognize" each other as humans. People recognize each other as humans and kill each other in close personal ways all the time. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with Turkey or Russia failing to recognize their mutual humanity, and everything to do with Russia wanting to be the big guy on the street and Turkey being pissed that Russia has been bombing ethnic Turks on the border between Syria and Turkey.

Of course, I could be totally wrong.

Edgar · **11-25-2015, 07:43 PM**

(11-25-2015, 06:30 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
Sylentmana Wrote: Irrelevant to the meaning behind my post. People are being killed because neither side is capable of seeing each other as humans. People are being killed when they should not be. That's all I care about.

I think it's a bit silky to assume you know that these people don't "recognize" each other as humans. People recognize each other as humans and kill each other in close personal ways all the time. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with Turkey or Russia failing to recognize their mutual humanity, and everything to do with Russia wanting to be the big guy on the street and Turkey being pissed that Russia has been bombing ethnic Turks on the border between Syria and Turkey.

Of course, I could be totally wrong.

When, in the history of conflict, have we ever lent ourselves toÂ treating our foesÂ like human beings? We treated them like targets ready to pump full of bullets.

It's not "silky" of anyone to assume this, because if you look in your history books, or hell, do a quick search on google, you'll see that dehumanization and military conflicts go hand in hand.

You need to seeÂ some of this shit. WWII alone has enough embedded prejudice to support my argument a thousand times over.

LiadansWhisper · **11-25-2015, 07:52 PM**

(11-25-2015, 07:43 PM)Edgar Wrote:
(11-25-2015, 06:30 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
Sylentmana Wrote: Irrelevant to the meaning behind my post. People are being killed because neither side is capable of seeing each other as humans. People are being killed when they should not be. That's all I care about.

I think it's a bit silky to assume you know that these people don't "recognize" each other as humans. People recognize each other as humans and kill each other in close personal ways all the time. I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with Turkey or Russia failing to recognize their mutual humanity, and everything to do with Russia wanting to be the big guy on the street and Turkey being pissed that Russia has been bombing ethnic Turks on the border between Syria and Turkey.

Of course, I could be totally wrong.

When, in the history of conflict, have we ever lent ourselves toÂ treating our foesÂ like human beings? We treated them like targets ready to pump full of bullets.

It's not "silky" of anyone to assume this, because if you look in your history books, or hell, do a quick search on google, you'll see that dehumanization and military conflicts go hand in hand.

You need to seeÂ some of this shit. WWII alone has enough embedded prejudice to support my argument a thousand times over.

Thanks for trying to educate ne, but I'm quite familiar with history, thanks.

I feel like you're missing my point, so I'll just try to get it across again.

People do terrible things to other human beings in a close and personal manner every day all over the world. It is not that they haven't intellectually understood that the guy they're roasting to death (thanks, Daesh!) isn't a human being. It's that they don't care. Or they feel justified. Or they want money or power more than they care for the life of another human being.

And, again, Turkey didn't shoot down a Russian jet because they didn't think of Russian people as actual...you know...people. They shot it down because it violated their airspace. They warned Russia in advance multiple times. They warned the specific aircraft itself multiple times, and told them they would respond in force.

Russia didn't ignore these warnings because they somehow forgot the Turks are human beings. They ignored the warnings because they thought they could get away with it (anyone who's dealt with a toddler will recognize this behavior).

This time, they didn't get away with it. It's truly tragic thst the pilot died, but he WAS warned.

Now let's hope this doesn't escalate because if Russia attacks Turkey, we're genuinely fucked.

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-25-2015, 08:24 PM**

People see each other as humans.
Maybe this is mind blowing to some people, but you can see someone as human, kill them, and still not feel bad about it.Â

That's what soldiers do.

Edgar · **11-25-2015, 08:26 PM**

(11-25-2015, 07:52 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: *snip*

Condescending opening statement aside.

Understand, Lia, I'm not really disagreeing with your argument on a fundamental level. I'm saying there's more to it than that, that history supports there being more to it than that, and that Sylentmana isn't wrong for thinking that with evidence to support it.

***Teadrinker*** · **11-25-2015, 09:15 PM**

(11-25-2015, 03:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Global politics seldom boil down to "Guys, be nice."

Tend to agree with this.

If throwing enough feelings at it and tossing flowers into the barrels of guns was gonna work then war would have been done away with in the 60's.

Edgar · **11-25-2015, 09:19 PM**

(11-25-2015, 09:15 PM)Teadrinker Wrote:
(11-25-2015, 03:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Global politics seldom boil down to "Guys, be nice."

Tend to agree with this.

If throwing enough feelings at it and tossing flowers into the barrels of guns was gonna work then war would have been done away with in the 60's.

That isn't to say, civil disobedience is pointless; it isn't. But, it's going to take more than that.

Erik Mynhier · **11-25-2015, 09:44 PM**

According to reports the Russians were in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. As somone who use to push buttons and make things go boom, that is really a fast reaction even with ten warnings. Instant no restraints firing after the tenth and final warning is usually only for war time enemies.

And that said the Russians with ten warnings, at cruse speed had a good 4-7 minutes to change course (warnings start at 10 minutes out and are repeated every minute). At the look of the geography of that part of Turkey, the jets would have need 3 minutes to adjust course.

As for all this both sides had more then enough room to avoid this drama. Feels like they want this fight, which sucks for us. All Turkey has to do is invoke their NATO privilege and we are off to the races. Hotheads with intertwined alliances is where World Wars come from kids.

LiadansWhisper · **11-25-2015, 09:55 PM**

(11-25-2015, 09:44 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: According to reports the Russians were in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. As somone who use to push buttons and make things go boom, that is really a fast reaction even with ten warnings. Instant no restraints firing after the tenth and final warning is usually only for war time enemies.

And that said the Russians with ten warnings, at cruse speed had a good 4-7 minutes to change course (warnings start at 10 minutes out and are repeated every minute). At the look of the geography of that part of Turkey, the jets would have need 3 minutes to adjust course.

As for all this both sides had more then enough room to avoid this drama. Feels like they want this fight, which sucks for us. All Turkey has to do is invoke their NATO privilege and we are off to the races. Hotheads with intertwined alliances is where World Wars come from kids.

Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, Russia's been pulling shit like this all year long. They were messing around in other people's territorial waters all last spring and summer, and no one really did anything about it (and Russia just kind of laughed when various countries protested the Russians using their waters). Turkey apparently has repeatedly tried diplomacy to make Russia stop violating their airspace, and Russia has repeatedly kept doing it. Turkey even explicitly told Russia that the next violation would be met with force, and Russia did it anyway. So, I mean, I don't know what else Turkey was supposed to do. Maybe they're not in the habit of drawing a "red line in the sand" and then folding when someone crosses it?

If Russia responds by attacking Turkey, then it won't take Turkey invoking their privilege. I believe we'll already have to respond. Wasn't that why Putin wanted to keep Ukraine out of NATO, too?

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