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Myxie Tryxle · **07-29-2013, 07:17 PM**

Someone just made me aware of this thread by Merri which seems to include a lot about diseases and pharmacology in the lore.

FreelanceWizard · **07-30-2013, 10:45 AM**

Setting aside the OOC narrative elements -- for instance, if the other player wants their character to be laid up in bed due to injuries, then healing magic doesn't fix them completely -- I usually treat healing magic metaphysically as being able to repair a person to their normal, to use a Mage: the Ascension term, "pattern." So, healing magics can't raise you from the dead (as the pattern is a dead body in this instance), correct inborn anomalies (since they're part of your pattern), or fix either long neglected injuries or injuries such as scars that you've taken as part of your identity (as they're part of your pattern through time or belief). They can correct "status effects," but not necessarily their underlying causes; Esuna and Cure might make you feel better for a time if you're dying of some disease, but since they don't deal with the underlying causative agent, mundane medical treatment is still required. The IC explanation one could use for this is that everything has a "natural" state, and the channeled Aether of Conjury simply recreates that state as the path of least resistance; requested and not commanded by its user, the Aether simply does the simplest, most natural thing for the creature so infused.

Of course, all of the above is all speculation with no support in lore (other than that it, like other explanations on this thread, can at least account for what we know exists in Eorzea). Take it with between one and several grains of salt. Smile

Ashren Dotharl · **07-30-2013, 10:57 AM**

(07-30-2013, 10:45 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Setting aside the OOC narrative elements -- for instance, if the other player wants their character to be laid up in bed due to injuries, then healing magic doesn't fix them completely -- I usually treat healing magic metaphysically as being able to repair a person to their normal, to use a Mage: the Ascension term, "pattern." So, healing magics can't raise you from the dead (as the pattern is a dead body in this instance), correct inborn anomalies (since they're part of your pattern), or fix either long neglected injuries or injuries such as scars that you've taken as part of your identity (as they're part of your pattern through time or belief). They can correct "status effects," but not necessarily their underlying causes; Esuna and Cure might make you feel better for a time if you're dying of some disease, but since they don't deal with the underlying causative agent, mundane medical treatment is still required. The IC explanation one could use for this is that everything has a "natural" state, and the channeled Aether of Conjury simply recreates that state as the path of least resistance; requested and not commanded by its user, the Aether simply does the simplest, most natural thing for the creature so infused.

Of course, all of the above is all speculation with no support in lore (other than that it, like other explanations on this thread, can at least account for what we know exists in Eorzea). Take it with between one and several grains of salt.

I actually can't agree more with this explanation, this is pretty spot on to how I view it. This also takes into account why story deaths could happen, Raise wouldn't bring you back from the dead but instead bring you back from the brink of death. It always annoyed me how in video games where anti-death magic or items (like Raise or Phoenix Down) existed, people could still die. Like a character has a slow and tragic death while the healer stands their weeping helplessly, and I'm just like "WHY AREN'T YOU CASTING RAISE!?" That is until I subscribed to this method of thinking, at that point it kind of made a bit more sense.

Miss Marigold · **07-30-2013, 03:24 PM**

(07-28-2013, 10:14 PM)Naunet Wrote: I really, really, really don't like it when magic is used as a cure-all for wounds and illness. It always strikes me as cheap and cutting out a lot of great potential RP. Oh your character is sick - well it's not really that bad; we just need to find a conjurer/priest/mystic/purifier/insert-healer-of-choice-from-any-other-canon-here and you'll be all better!

Yea, no.

Please keep in mind that as much as you hate such things, there are those of us like myself who hate when people insist on giving their character basic physical injuries or illnesses. I roll my eyes every time someone nurses a minor wound after battle, partly because it's just so boring and partly because I think the lore says such things can be trivially fixed by a competent healer. The disconnect between being able to repeatedly heal someone when a primal is whacking them in the head and not being able to heal someone when they have a broken toe afterwards just seems ridiculous to me.

If you want your character to have an illness, give them some mysterious magical affliction that's actually interesting and guide the people you're roleplaying with so they understand how it works and what might be the path required to fix it. That avoids the whole question of if esuna will solve the problem and it gives the everyone else something to do other than fuss over the terrible state your character is in.

Of course, if you're playing with people that enjoy providing tender care for someone with the flu, go for it! Just please don't get annoyed if you try the same thing with a random group of people and one of them disinterestedly casts an esuna to solve the problem.

Twinflame · **07-30-2013, 03:42 PM**

(07-30-2013, 03:24 PM)Miss Marigold Wrote: Please keep in mind that as much as you hate such things, there are those of us like myself who hate when people insist on giving their character basic physical injuries or illnesses. I roll my eyes every time someone nurses a minor wound after battle, partly because it's just so boring and partly because I think the lore says such things can be trivially fixed by a competent healer. The disconnect between being able to repeatedly heal someone when a primal is whacking them in the head and not being able to heal someone when they have a broken toe afterwards just seems ridiculous to me.

If you want your character to have an illness, give them some mysterious magical affliction that's actually interesting and guide the people you're roleplaying with so they understand how it works and what might be the path required to fix it. That avoids the whole question of if esuna will solve the problem and it gives the everyone else something to do other than fuss over the terrible state your character is in.

Of course, if you're playing with people that enjoy providing tender care for someone with the flu, go for it! Just please don't get annoyed if you try the same thing with a random group of people and one of them disinterestedly casts an esuna to solve the problem.

Please keep in mind that no matter how much you hate such things, there are those of us who like to RP as doctors, physicians, medical professionals or researchers, or even White Mages that like to RP the process of using magic to heal. I roll my eyes every time someone completely invalidates things like battle injuries and weakness from loss of blood, partly because it's just so boring and partly because I think it's border-line god-moding. The disconnect between people dying from illness and starvation while conjurers just stand there and being able to heal any wound or debuff within a moment of receiving it just seems ridiculous to me.

That said, your second paragraph is insultingly narrow-minded. RP is what you make of it and creativity is in the prose, not the content. If a typical disease isn't interesting to you, then you're free to RP other things, but you shouldn't insult what people like to RP. You're also free to RP being some kind of magical instant healer, but respectfully, it doesn't make any sense. There's a huge difference between filling someone's body with enough vitality and emergency healing to get them through a fight (making their HP go up in combat) and being able to wave your shiney stick and heal all their ills like some kind of overwrought religious miracle-worker.

Of course, if you're playing with people that enjoy completely overlooking realistic and dynamic injuries in favor of sparkly lights and miracle panaceas, go for it! Just please don't get annoyed if you try the same thing with a random group of people and they treat your character like an idiot for casting Esuna and acting like it helped at all.

(07-30-2013, 10:45 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Setting aside the OOC narrative elements -- for instance, if the other player wants their character to be laid up in bed due to injuries, then healing magic doesn't fix them completely -- I usually treat healing magic metaphysically as being able to repair a person to their normal, to use a Mage: the Ascension term, "pattern." So, healing magics can't raise you from the dead (as the pattern is a dead body in this instance), correct inborn anomalies (since they're part of your pattern), or fix either long neglected injuries or injuries such as scars that you've taken as part of your identity (as they're part of your pattern through time or belief). They can correct "status effects," but not necessarily their underlying causes; Esuna and Cure might make you feel better for a time if you're dying of some disease, but since they don't deal with the underlying causative agent, mundane medical treatment is still required. The IC explanation one could use for this is that everything has a "natural" state, and the channeled Aether of Conjury simply recreates that state as the path of least resistance; requested and not commanded by its user, the Aether simply does the simplest, most natural thing for the creature so infused.

Of course, all of the above is all speculation with no support in lore (other than that it, like other explanations on this thread, can at least account for what we know exists in Eorzea). Take it with between one and several grains of salt.Â

I honestly love this explanation. In TERA I had developed my healing head-canon to the point that I'd actually drawn up a sketch of how I thought mana moved in a body to maintain and heal it. But in ARR, I haven't given it any thought yet. I think because I'm not presently RPing any kind of healer and physician.

I'll need one at one point, though, and I do like yours.

Miss Marigold · **07-30-2013, 05:30 PM**

(07-30-2013, 03:42 PM)TwinflameP Wrote: Please keep in mind that no matter how much you hate such things, there are those of us who like to RP as doctors, physicians, medical professionals or researchers, or even White Mages that like to RP the process of using magic to heal

Great, so do that! Knock yourself out!

My point is that if you RP that your character is injured/sick/whatever, you're the one that's putting other players into a situation where they need to respond. If the other player thinks it's no big deal and that slapping esuna on their head should do the trick, that's not the other player's fault: They're just applying their understanding of how things work to the situation you initiated.

(07-30-2013, 03:42 PM)TwinflameP Wrote: RP is what you make of it and creativity is in the prose, not the content.

Sure, but not all people find all content appealing. Having your character injured after a battle basically forces everyone else to either ignore it (which is rude), cure it (which you say is rude), or boohoo over the injury (which I find boring). If you're with a group that you know likes to do those sorts of things, thenâ€”as I saidâ€”go for it. if you try it with a random group of roleplayers though and one of them decides to fix your problem with white magic, that's not them being a bad roleplayer; that's just them considering your leg wound to be curable with white magic, something I consider to be entirely reasonable.

(07-30-2013, 03:42 PM)TwinflameP Wrote: Just please don't get annoyed if you try the same thing with a random group of people and they treat your character like an idiot for casting Esuna and acting like it helped at all.

That's entirely different. Someone using white magic to heal a wound is reasonable to a lot of players. Playing it as if the other person is an idiot for playing their character that way is just plain obnoxious and shoving an OOC disagreement into an IC context. If you don't like how they're playing it, just politely excuse yourself. That is rule number one.

Finally, please keep in mind that I was responding to someone who said they "hate" when people play a certain way. My point is only that there are people who feel the exact opposite way which I demonstrated by explaining how I personally feel (e.g. that I find it boring and that using white magic is perfectly reasonable). Why you chose to take offense to this I've no idea.

Naunet · **07-30-2013, 06:06 PM**

(07-30-2013, 05:30 PM)Miss Marigold Wrote: Having your character injured after a battle basically forces everyone else to either ignore it (which is rude), cure it (which you say is rude), or boohoo over the injury (which I find boring).

I don't know if you're just not communicating your tone properly over the internet, but you're coming off as incredibly condescending. There's more to roleplaying the consequences of some injury or illness than just people "boohoo"ing over another. It's about roleplaying lasting consequences of a character's decisions and actions, rather than having an easy out via magic. For example, a character of mine in TERA attempted to kill someone she's harbored very negative feelings towards for a long while. She managed to damage him greatly, but in the process he also managed to turn a lot of her own power back on her, nearly burning her arm off. It's been interesting including the limitations of such an injury in the roleplay following that scene, as she's basically lost all function in her left arm. The guy she tried to kill has had to deal with some pretty horrible body burns, so he didn't get off all that easy either (though at least he was able to seek out proper medical care).

So please don't try to characterize including reasonable consequences of injury as some kind of pity party. It's insulting to roleplayers who don't see magic as a cure-all (which, arguably, wouldn't even make sense, as it calls into question why there would be death from injury or disease in the world in the first place - such as the plague that ravaged the Hyur).

Twinflame · **07-30-2013, 06:24 PM**

(07-30-2013, 05:30 PM)Miss Marigold Wrote: That's entirely different. Someone using white magic to heal a wound is reasonable to a lot of players. Playing it as if the other person is an idiot for playing their character that way is just plain obnoxious and shoving an OOC disagreement into an IC context. If you don't like how they're playing it, just politely excuse yourself. That is rule number one.

Finally, please keep in mind that I was responding to someone who said they "hate" when people play a certain way. My point is only that there are people who feel the exact opposite way which I demonstrated by explaining how I personally feel (e.g. that I find it boring and that using white magic is perfectly reasonable). Why you chose to take offense to this I've no idea.

Mostly I used your own words, so you can't really complain about my tone. Also, if you were attempting to respond only to the one person, you overstepped that by speaking in far broader strokes. Essentially, whether you meant to or not, you said things that were insulting to all people who disagree with you. What you're trying to say will always be overwritten by what you actually say.

Anyway, I'm not trying to imply that healing magic is totally bunk. Of course I'm not, and there are a lot of minor injuries that a White Mage can make go away in their entirety with a wave of a staff. There are other injuries and illness that may take longer to cure but can still be taken care of with magic. There are still other injuries that cannot be fixed with magic alone, but instead require a mix of magical and traditional medicine. Yet others cannot be helped by magic and must be seen to by exclusively non-magical intervention.

You are of course free to disagree, and politely excuse yourself from RP with people who do not see magic as being as effective as you would like it to be, just as they are free to step away from RP with you. However, it would be kind of sad if you had to step away from so much RP, as I think most people are not going to be stubborn about this point and will likely allow themselves to fall into a point in between, where the magic heals significantly but they still require natural recovery.

Incidentally, my rule number one for RP is: Respect the RP of others at least as much as you respect your own, if not more.

So it's not like I'm going to disrespect your choice to RP magic as a cure-all, especially if your friends and regular group go along with that. However, I think if you're super stubborn about it, you're going to miss out on RPing with lots of people. You're cutting yourself off from lots of plots, many interesting scenes, and in some cases, entire characters and Linkshells that rely on a less extreme viewpoint in order to function.

We all have our headcanons. They don't always agree. Reconciliation is necessary in order to RP with folk. So if you're rolling your eyes at people who RP differently than you do, but in a way that they enjoy, you're not really showing a large part of the community the respect they deserve. Especially if your character "disinterestedly casts an esuna" and then you expect them to just go along with that no matter what they wanted to RP.

Miss Marigold · **07-30-2013, 06:28 PM**

(07-30-2013, 06:06 PM)Naune Wrote: I don't know if you're just not communicating your tone properly over the internet, but you're coming off as incredibly condescending.

Sorry, not my intent! Let me see if I can clarify.

(07-30-2013, 06:06 PM)Naune Wrote: For example, a character of mine in TERA attempted to kill someone she's harbored very negative feelings towards for a long while. She managed to damage him greatly, but in the process he also managed to turn a lot of her own power back on her, nearly burning her arm off. It's been interesting including the limitations of such an injury in the roleplay following that scene, as she's basically lost all function in her left arm. The guy she tried to kill has had to deal with some pretty horrible body burns, so he didn't get off all that easy either (though at least he was able to seek out proper medical care).

Yes, I'm perfectly fine with that sort of thingâ€”especially since the damage was inflicted by another player and you both obviously were interested in playing such a scenario. I'd never play my character as if they were able to heal such an injury.

That's not the sort of thing I thought you were describing though. What I thought you were talking aboutâ€”and what I've personally run into oftenâ€”is someone getting injured in a common battle (e.g. a FATE or dungeon) and then lying on the ground in pain afterwards. That sort of thing is fine if that's what you like, but if you're with a group of random playersâ€”the sort you might meet when roleplaying in the open worldâ€”then I think it's just a recipe for disaster due to likely disagreements over how it should be played.

Every time someone does that to me, I just sort of groan because I don't really want to stop what we were otherwise doing so this character can be the center of attention. I also don't think it makes a lot of sense: Healing battle injuries is what a white mage does all day long. As for rare plagues and starvation, they're a different thing entirely as far as I'm concerned.

I think we really just had two very different things in mind. You seem to be annoyed when people fumble serious things like PC-inflicted injuresâ€”something perfectly reasonable and something I'd get annoyed over tooâ€”and I get annoyed when people turn what was otherwise a fun IC dungeon run into a pity party because suddenly the white mage's magic no longer can make their character feel better.

Naunet · **07-30-2013, 06:30 PM**

(07-30-2013, 06:28 PM)Miss Marigold Wrote: I think we really just had two very different things in mind. You seem to be annoyed when people fumble serious things like PC-inflicted injuresâ€”something perfectly reasonable and something I'd get annoyed over tooâ€”and I get annoyed when people turn what was otherwise a fun IC dungeon run into a pity party because suddenly the white mage's magic no longer can make their character feel better.

I understand entirely now! Thank you for the clarification. Smile

Miss Marigold · **07-30-2013, 06:39 PM**

(07-30-2013, 06:24 PM)Twinflame Wrote: Mostly I used your own words, so you can't really complain about my tone.

Perhaps, but parroting someone like that is also its own special form of rudeness you know.

In any case, I agree that I overstated my point because I was mainly considering the scenario that often happens to me: Someone in suddenly injured in an otherwise normal battle and, for some undisclosed reason, the white mage's magic is no longer able to cure a common battle injury.

(07-30-2013, 06:24 PM)Twinflame Wrote: So it's not like I'm going to disrespect your choice to RP magic as a cure-all, especially if your friends and regular group go along with that.

I don't think it's a cure-all. For battle wounds from dungeons and the common cold, sure. For dealing with the aftermath of an intense battle between PCs, surely not.

(07-30-2013, 06:24 PM)Twinflame Wrote: So if you're rolling your eyes at people who RP differently than you do, but in a way that they enjoy, you're not really showing a large part of the community the respect they deserve.

Hehe, I assure you I don't make my displeasure known in-game. I'll try to steer things in another direction, and if that doesn't work then I'll mosey my way out.

(07-30-2013, 06:24 PM)Twinflame Wrote: Especially if your character "disinterestedly casts an esuna" and then you expect them to just go along with that no matter what they wanted to RP.

I guess there are two different ways to look at this.

Some people view RP scenarios as a compromise: One person wants to do A and the other wants to do B, so they meet half-way and do something in the middle.

I view RP scenarios as something better based on the intersection of two people's interests: One person wants to do A, B and C and the other wants to do C, D, and E, so they just suck it up and stick to C. In the case of something like a battle injury, if it's clear that the other person isn't interested I'd just drop it. I would not expect them to meet me half way just because I decided to initiate something they're not interested in.

Ashren Dotharl · **07-30-2013, 06:40 PM**

(07-30-2013, 06:30 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(07-30-2013, 06:28 PM)Miss Marigold Wrote: I think we really just had two very different things in mind. You seem to be annoyed when people fumble serious things like PC-inflicted injuresâ€”something perfectly reasonable and something I'd get annoyed over tooâ€”and I get annoyed when people turn what was otherwise a fun IC dungeon run into a pity party because suddenly the white mage's magic no longer can make their character feel better.

I understand entirely now! Thank you for the clarification.

I'm gonna go off topic for just a moment and say that stuff like this is why I love the RPC community so much. Pain free, peaceful resolution in just a few posts. If this conversation were happening on the beta forums we'd be on page 20 by now, at least, with people resorting to petty childish name calling.

Twinflame · **07-30-2013, 06:44 PM**

(07-30-2013, 06:39 PM)Miss Marigold Wrote: Perhaps, but parroting someone like that is also its own special form of rudeness you know.

In any case, I agree that I overstated my point because I was mainly considering the scenario that often happens to me: Someone in suddenly injured in an otherwise normal battle and, for some undisclosed reason, the white mage's magic is no longer able to cure a common battle injury.

I might've been a little ruder than I meant to in that case, but I'm given to overreaction. Now, if that's what you had in mind, then yes. That would annoy me as well. xD

Eva · **07-30-2013, 06:45 PM**

Gonna chime in again quickly to add one more thing...

I think I may take a slightly more unconventional view in that I do think that white magic can be used to treat these more extreme things.Â Do I think that it's commonplace to do so, or that any white mage is able to, and without taxing themselves extraordinarily in order to achieve such an end?Â Absolutely not.

I view magical and mundane healing as two separate methods that have a great deal of overlap.Â I thinkÂ a white mage could use magic to staunch bleeding until an experienced doctor has a chance to treat the root cause of the bleeding properly.

By the same token, I think a field medic could use bandages, tools, and first aid to staunch bleeding until an experienced white mage has a chance to treat the root cause of the bleeding properly.

So what I'm saying is that I think each method is equally acceptable, but some account must be taken for the experience level of the mage or doctor in question.Â I think in order to keep things somewhat realistic, the factor of time needs to be weighed as well, and exertion.

One thing I RPed as a healer in 1.0 was tending to a character who had received at least one gunshot wound to the chest.Â These healings were conducted in the form of aetherial treatment sessions which left Eva exhausted after each one, and could probably be viewed akin to some sort of physical therapy regimin.Â These went on for two or three weeks, as I recall.Â I view this as sort of an accelerated healing, but I also think someone seasoned enough with field medicine who know the right herbs, salves, or what have you could have probably yielded similar results with a less 'magical' means of treatment.

In short, nothing is really wrong.Â Just keep it real.Â Snapping fingers and curing a disease or re-growing a missing limb is a little silly.Â Do I think someone could do it if they were a strong enough mage?Â I actually do.Â But I also don't think it's well within most adventurer's reach to perform such miracles.Â But on the off chance they could, I would expect it to take a massive physical toll on the part of the healer, and a substantial amount of time as well.

Again, this is just my own opinion for whatever it may be worth.

TL;DR:Â Being an expert doctor may be on par with being an expert white mage even if the two disciplines are different, there is probably a lot of overlap.Â Consider not only physical healing versus magical healing but also the degree of expertise the healer has in whichever is his or her field of practice.

Ildur · **07-30-2013, 07:22 PM**

(07-30-2013, 06:40 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: I'm gonna go off topic for just a moment and say that stuff like this is why I love the RPC community so much. Pain free, peaceful resolution in just a few posts. If this conversation were happening on the beta forums we'd be on page 20 by now, at least, with people resorting to petty childish name calling.

What is this? Peaceful resolutions? On the internet!? Witchcraft! Witchcraft, I say!

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Medicine in Eorzea

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