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Clover · **08-09-2013, 04:08 PM**

(08-09-2013, 04:03 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(08-09-2013, 03:58 PM)Clover Wrote: Also, if such marriages aren't allowed, does that mean that homosexuality isn't well seen by hyurs or any other race that has a marriage system? I guess the lore doesn't really state anything about this, but it'd be good to figure out in order to determine how shocked or passively our characters will react.

I know that my Miqo'te's Hipparion tribe has a rule that allows it, so she'd see it as a very normal thing.

I recall seeing a quote from Yoshi-P (or maybe it was from that official lore guy on the lore forums) where it was stated that there really aren't any gender discriminations when it comes to romantic relationships in Eorzea.

Which makes the marriage system being hetero-only even more ridiculous. Squee needs to put their grown-up pants on and actually take a stand that they clearly want to take but are too chicken to do so.

I see. It's ridiculous, indeed, especially if it's a choice they've made toÂ satisfy the most intolerant and unpleasant players O_O
That someone is offended over homosexual marriage at this time and age is absolutely silly, why should their opinion be taken into such consideration?

In any case, since there's no discrimination in Eorzea, then I guess it'd be safe to at least imagine that such marriages are allowed in the RP?

S'demyx Tia · **08-09-2013, 04:09 PM**

guess I'm not getting married...Â å“Žå”

Magellan · **08-09-2013, 04:18 PM**

(08-09-2013, 04:09 PM)Sdemyx Tia Wrote: guess I'm not getting married...Â å“Žå”

Lets have a marriage of convenience, then have our own not-so-secret lovers. The forbidden love angle will be super-dramatic!

Felix Sideris · **08-09-2013, 04:25 PM**

(08-09-2013, 03:54 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(08-09-2013, 03:43 PM)Felix Sideris Wrote: It is better to not release it initially and then add it in upon majority player-base request than to add it in and offend some of your players.

I disagree completely. The best course of action is to present marriage with no restrictions and treat it as completely normal. Don't make a fuss about it. Just do it. Nobody's going to seriously get in a tizzy over a lack of gender restrictions in marriage in a video game. The ones that do are generally groups that don't play video games anyway (like ultra conservative groups in NA - who, by the way, didn't kick up one bit of fuss with Rift, which is also a global game).

Again,

You are forgetting the fact that Japanese culture does not support homosexuality. A large part of their player base is Japanese. In fact the only country that supports it to a 'completely normal' level, or comes even close to that, is the United States.

Treating it as completely normal is also an opinion. Some people view it as the complete opposite. Going ahead implementing it with no restrictions completely disregards the opinions of those who are against it. Which is why they have taken the neutral role of putting that discussion on hold and implementing opposite-sex marriage until they can get time to consult the player base to know what they want, as a whole.

Yoshi P knows what he is doing. From a business standpoint it makes 0 sense to put any effort into this subject on a video gameÂ until they solidify their game and get it released.Â

The fact that they are putting the decision on whether or not to implement same sex marriage on hold is a perfect example that they respect allÂ of their players, not just those who want to see this passed into their game.

Call it overly cautious, maybe that's all it is, but I still think it is a smart decision.

Anyone who wants to see this implemented, and i could be wrong, but I think they would likely be willing to wait and support it when Square brings the topic up.

ArmachiA · **08-09-2013, 04:30 PM**

Yeah, you kind of have to understand Japanese culture here, which in a lot of ways is very, very backwards. For some reason people see Japan as very progressive, when they are in fact very traditional and way behind the Western world for being inclusive. I mean Japan's motto is pretty much "Deru kugi wa utareru (The nail that sticks out gets hammered down)" This describes EVERYTHING they do.

I understand why SE is being cautious, I don't AGREE, but I absolutely understand.

Clover · **08-09-2013, 04:34 PM**

(08-09-2013, 04:25 PM)Felix Sideris Wrote: Again,

You are forgetting the fact that Japanese culture does not support homosexuality. A large part of their player base is Japanese. In fact the only country that supports it to a 'completely normal' level, or comes even close to that, is the United States.

Actually, I believe that Spain had homosexual marriages quite before the United States did ^^;
You'd be surprised at the amount of countries that support it.

Putting that aside, I did see Western people whine when Western Mabinogi announced that same-sex marriages would be allowed, so it's not a Japan only thing. The whole world is nuts.

Myxie Tryxle · **08-09-2013, 04:39 PM**

As far as the lore goes, you can consider the fact that one of the biggest opponents of gay marriage, namely Christianity and Christian groups, doesn't exist in the setting. Looking at the Twelve, there are several male-female relationships but none that are same sex. Of course we only have 1-2 paragraphs about each of them, two of the Twelve have a father but no mother, and six of them have no parentage at all. I wouldn't be surprised if Menphina at least encouraged love in every form.

Again, there will be regional differences as well. These poll numbers are confusing, but from what I've been able to interpret, Japan is anywhere between 3-17 years less progressive than comparable polls in the United States. Even in the US only 13 states, Washington DC, and five Native American tribes have legalized same-sex marriage. I don't think you can blame Square Enix for being careful about jumping headfirst into muddy water like this. It would be nice if they took a stance on the issue, but they aren't going to until they have a reasonably good idea how it will affect the bottom line.

Kellen whitewolf · **08-09-2013, 04:43 PM**

does anybody know how the marrage systme will work likeÂ will the couple be able share items between the two those who seen sword art online would know what im getting at

Felix Sideris · **08-09-2013, 04:43 PM**

(08-09-2013, 04:34 PM)Clover Wrote:
(08-09-2013, 04:25 PM)Felix Sideris Wrote: Again,

You are forgetting the fact that Japanese culture does not support homosexuality. A large part of their player base is Japanese. In fact the only country that supports it to a 'completely normal' level, or comes even close to that, is the United States.
Actually, I believe that Spain had homosexual marriages quite before the United States did ^^;
You'd be surprised at the amount of countries that support it.

Putting that aside, I did see Western people whine when Western Mabinogi announced that same-sex marriages would be allowed, so it's not a Japan only thing. The whole world is nuts.

I have my own thoughts on the topic, but I don't think this is an appropriate place to discuss them personally, and I think everyone has the right to decide how they want to live their own life, too, so yeah.

That set aside.

Japan is VERY different from the united states.

There is an amazing quote from the movie Emperor(2012) that explains this better than I could, but I couldn't find the exact quote, so this is from memory;

In Japanese culture, on the surface they act like westerners, they are progressive, they blend in. However, it is a lie, a front. Underneath lies over 2000 years of tradition, beliefs and culture which is deeply rooted into the people and always will be.

That said, Japan is known for being isolationism, and despite the appearance of being as progressive and forward moving as the rest of the world, they are DEEPLY rooted in where they came from.

A large part of Yoshi P being cautious about this is likely because of that very thing. So while some might not agree with his decision, it is the most neutral route to take. Especially since it is not openly accepted in Japan, and it is a Japanese game(pretty much).

However, I can see them adding it in sometime in the near future as lore supports it and a large amount of the player base either doesn't care, or supports it as well.Â

So, I'd say don't worry or stress over it and hang tight Smile

(08-09-2013, 04:43 PM)Kellen whitewolf Wrote: does anybody know how the marrage systme will work likeÂ will the couple be able share items between the two those who seen sword art online would know what im getting at

I think it is reasonable to assume it will have something like that involved.

As far as I am willing to speculate:

Shared housing/items/banking/etc are all reasonable to expect.

Twinflame · **08-09-2013, 04:48 PM**

(08-09-2013, 04:25 PM)Felix Sideris Wrote: You are forgetting the fact that Japanese culture does not support homosexuality. A large part of their player base is Japanese. In fact the only country that supports it to a 'completely normal' level, or comes even close to that, is the United States.

Treating it as completely normal is also an opinion. Some people view it as the complete opposite. Going ahead implementing it with no restrictions completely disregards the opinions of those who are against it. Which is why they have taken the neutral role of putting that discussion on hold and implementing opposite-sex marriage until they can get time to consult the player base to know what they want, as a whole.

You are forgetting the fact that large swaths of the playerbase not only support homosexuality, but are homosexuals who are married to their partners. It is untrue to say that the US is the only country that sees this as normal; many countries are far ahead of the US in respecting homosexual rights and see us as backwards. To those countries, Japan is downright primitive.

Treating it as abnormal is an opinion and many people see that opinion as aberrant and divisive. Going ahead and implementing it with restrictions completely disregards the opinions, lifestyles and in many cases the actual irl status of those who are in favor of homosexual marriage. Which is why "putting off" that decision is in NO WAY neutral. If they do not implement same-sex marriage they are actively disallowing it. They are actively stating that the beliefs and lifestyles of many of their players are strange, unusual, and will not be accepted until divisive elements in the playerbase agree to it.

Given the tone of a lot of their commentary, this seems to go completely against Yoshi's paradigm. They're afraid of the vote-kick function being used to troll. Their afraid of whispers in raids being used to say cruel things. They're afraid of people rolling need on things they don't need because it is rude. And then they turn around and actively speak down to a large element of their customers, as if there's something strange and unwanted about them.

rynsan · **08-09-2013, 04:51 PM**

(08-09-2013, 04:25 PM)Felix Sideris Wrote: Anyone who wants to see this implemented, and i could be wrong, but I think they would likely be willing to wait and support it when Square brings the topic up.

I'll be honest, I have seen it being mentioned in other sites, including non-gaming ones, which make a bit of a deal over it. (the one I remember was this article).

The impression I got (before I read this post) is that Square is doing it so it doesn't cause upset to a majority of it's fanbase and also not to cause an attacks or trolling towards any gay characters in the game. Where as people don't go rushing into a MMO screaming "I'M GAY I'M GAY!" I would imagine that a small few may advertise a marriage like I have seen hetrosexual couples do like in comment boxes or with matching rings inscribed with a name or something. I got the impression (which I may be wrong) that the careful decision was how to impliment it in a way that is fair without causing some backlash or uproar in a negaive way towards other players, wither gay or straight.

Personally, when I played FFXI I never once considered a gay marriage option for my character. I also personally don't beleive in gay marriage (don't hate me ><) but I appreciate each to their own values and beliefs. But if I found a reason to do it, wither as a standard or roleplay character, I would rather wait for the said decision and time to support it, even if it takes a while.

EDIT: In light of a recent comment by another user about my feeling on gay marriage, I would like to make it clear I am not trying to offend anyone, plus my opinion is my opinion. I would not judge anyone who felt differently and expect the same from them. I am a gay man myself and have my own beliefs but would happily support anyone wanting to be in a same sex marriage.

Dameon · **08-09-2013, 04:54 PM**

(08-09-2013, 03:32 PM)Myxie Tryxle Wrote: Same sex marriage is less progressive in Japan than the United States, so probably not. Â They actually have a law that is worded that marriage is between a man and a woman, though they will acknowledge a same-sex marriage if it occurs with a foreigner in a foreign country.

Also, to the point of pro-japanese same sex fandoms, isn't the whole yuri/yaoi subculture like...super huge there? They're just embarrassed to talk about it?

ArmachiA · **08-09-2013, 04:55 PM**

Not as big as you would think, but to Japanese people anime and manga are escape's, fantasies, and should never be used to say anything about Japanese culture as a whole.

Felix Sideris · **08-09-2013, 05:00 PM**

(08-09-2013, 04:48 PM)Twinflame Wrote:
(08-09-2013, 04:25 PM)Felix Sideris Wrote: You are forgetting the fact that Japanese culture does not support homosexuality. A large part of their player base is Japanese. In fact the only country that supports it to a 'completely normal' level, or comes even close to that, is the United States.

Treating it as completely normal is also an opinion. Some people view it as the complete opposite. Going ahead implementing it with no restrictions completely disregards the opinions of those who are against it. Which is why they have taken the neutral role of putting that discussion on hold and implementing opposite-sex marriage until they can get time to consult the player base to know what they want, as a whole.

You are forgetting the fact that large swaths of the playerbase not only support homosexuality, but are homosexuals who are married to their partners. It is untrue to say that the US is the only country that sees this as normal; many countries are far ahead of the US in respecting homosexual rights and see us as backwards. To those countries, Japan is downright primitive.

Treating it as abnormal is an opinion and many people see that opinion as aberrant and divisive. Going ahead and implementing it with restrictions completely disregards the opinions, lifestyles and in many cases the actual irl status of those who are in favor of homosexual marriage. Which is why "putting off" that decision is in NO WAY neutral. If they do not implement same-sex marriage they are actively disallowing it. They are actively stating that the beliefs and lifestyles of many of their players are strange, unusual, and will not be accepted until divisive elements in the playerbase agree to it.

Given the tone of a lot of their commentary, this seems to go completely against Yoshi's paradigm. They're afraid of the vote-kick function being used to troll. Their afraid of whispers in raids being used to say cruel things. They're afraid of people rolling need on things they don't need because it is rude. And then they turn around and actively speak down to a large element of their customers, as if there's something strange and unwanted about them.

I think that is a little bit of an extreme way to say it.

And I'll admit that the thing about the US was a bit of an uneducated exaggeration on my part.

And I am not forgetting that some people are homosexual's married to their partners at all, actually. I have a friend that is(not married though) and will likely be playing ARR soon after release.Â

However, I think it is more important to release their game and get it stabilized and some income flowing in before they can direct full and proper attention to it.

It isn't like they are sitting there drinking beers, feet up on their desk talking about the weather. They are preparing a release of an MMO that pretty much crashed and burned because the last development team didn't listen to the player base telling them not to release the game because it wasn't ready.

Do I think they will give the full attention this subject deserves and implement it in the near future, likely by 2.1? Absolutely.

I wouldn't go as far to say that they are disregarding the opinions and life styles of their players by taking this course of action on a Video Game.Â

I don't think anyone has to worry, though, honestly. There is pretty much a 99% chance this will get implemented in 2.1. Too many people support it for them to push it off any longer than that.

Yini Kihn · **08-09-2013, 05:00 PM**

(08-09-2013, 04:51 PM)youngwoon Wrote: I also personally don't beleive in gay marriage (don't hate me ><) but I appreciate each to their own values.

"I also personally don't believe in interracial marriage (don't hate me ><) but I appreciate each to their own values."

I just hope you're aware that's exactly what you sound like.

Edit: Someone contacted me to ask what this post means. Just to be very clear, my point was that adding "don't hate me" to an offensive comment doesn't make it any less offensiveâ€”or make people dislike you any less, for that matter.

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Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

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