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Erik Mynhier · **11-25-2015, 10:07 PM**

(11-25-2015, 09:55 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(11-25-2015, 09:44 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: According to reports the Russians were in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds. As somone who use to push buttons and make things go boom, that is really a fast reaction even with ten warnings. Instant no restraints firing after the tenth and final warning is usually only for war time enemies.

And that said the Russians with ten warnings, at cruse speed had a good 4-7 minutes to change course (warnings start at 10 minutes out and are repeated every minute). At the look of the geography of that part of Turkey, the jets would have need 3 minutes to adjust course.

As for all this both sides had more then enough room to avoid this drama. Feels like they want this fight, which sucks for us. All Turkey has to do is invoke their NATO privilege and we are off to the races. Hotheads with intertwined alliances is where World Wars come from kids.

Maybe, maybe not. The thing is, Russia's been pulling shit like this all year long. They were messing around in other people's territorial waters all last spring and summer, and no one really did anything about it (and Russia just kind of laughed when various countries protested the Russians using their waters). Turkey apparently has repeatedly tried diplomacy to make Russia stop violating their airspace, and Russia has repeatedly kept doing it. Turkey even explicitly told Russia that the next violation would be met with force, and Russia did it anyway. So, I mean, I don't know what else Turkey was supposed to do. Maybe they're not in the habit of drawing a "red line in the sand" and then folding when someone crosses it?

If Russia responds by attacking Turkey, then it won't take Turkey invoking their privilege. I believe we'll already have to respond. Wasn't that why Putin wanted to keep Ukraine out of NATO, too?

Everything you said is 100% correct. I was just breaking down the technical side a bit.

No matter who did what this is going to be the sort of shit found in history books.

Sylentmana · **11-26-2015, 11:04 AM**

(11-25-2015, 07:52 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Thanks for trying to educate ne, but I'm quite familiar with history, thanks.

I feel like you're missing my point, so I'll just try to get it across again.

People do terrible things to other human beings in a close and personal manner every day all over the world. It is not that they haven't intellectually understood that the guy they're roasting to death (thanks, Daesh!) isn't a human being. It's that they don't care. Or they feel justified. Or they want money or power more than they care for the life of another human being.

And, again, Turkey didn't shoot down a Russian jet because they didn't think of Russian people as actual...you know...people. They shot it down because it violated their airspace. They warned Russia in advance multiple times. They warned the specific aircraft itself multiple times, and told them they would respond in force.

Russia didn't ignore these warnings because they somehow forgot the Turks are human beings. They ignored the warnings because they thought they could get away with it (anyone who's dealt with a toddler will recognize this behavior).

This time, they didn't get away with it. It's truly tragic thst the pilot died, but he WAS warned.

Now let's hope this doesn't escalate because if Russia attacks Turkey, we're genuinely fucked.

Say you're right and they do recognize them as human beings with thoughts, feelings, hopes, families and friends who love them. Doesn't that make it all the more terrible? To recognize someone as human and to kill them anyway for your own benefit is practically the definition of a monster.

(11-25-2015, 08:24 PM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: People see each other as humans.
Maybe this is mind blowing to some people, but you can see someone as human, kill them, and still not feel bad about it.Â

That's what soldiers do.

I can tell you from personal experience as a soldier, if at any point it stops bothering you, then you know that you have a serious problem.

LiadansWhisper · **11-26-2015, 11:10 AM**

(11-26-2015, 11:04 AM)Sylentmana Wrote: Say you're right and they do recognize them as human beings with thoughts, feelings, hopes, families and friends who love them. Doesn't that make it all the more terrible? To recognize someone as human and to kill them anyway for your own benefit is practically the definition of a monster.

There are a lot of monsters in this world. To pretend that suddenly wars would cease and utopia would dawn if we just "recognized the humanity in each other" is a pipe dream. That's all I'm saying.

As far as the people who shot the plane down in Turkey, I very much doubt they did what they did for "personal benefit," and rather, I suspect that they believed they were protecting their country and their people.

Quote:I can tell you from personal experience as a soldier, if at any point it stops bothering you, then you know that you have a serious problem.

You know, you're talking to a former soldier there, right? US Army, iirc. Which branch did you serve in?

McBeefâ„¢ · **11-26-2015, 01:37 PM**

(11-26-2015, 11:04 AM)Sylentmana Wrote:
(11-25-2015, 07:52 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Thanks for trying to educate ne, but I'm quite familiar with history, thanks.

I feel like you're missing my point, so I'll just try to get it across again.

People do terrible things to other human beings in a close and personal manner every day all over the world. It is not that they haven't intellectually understood that the guy they're roasting to death (thanks, Daesh!) isn't a human being. It's that they don't care. Or they feel justified. Or they want money or power more than they care for the life of another human being.

And, again, Turkey didn't shoot down a Russian jet because they didn't think of Russian people as actual...you know...people. Â They shot it down because it violated their airspace. They warned Russia in advance multiple times. They warned the specific aircraft itself multiple times, and told them they would respond in force.

Russia didn't ignore these warnings because they somehow forgot the Turks are human beings. They ignored the warnings because they thought they could get away with it (anyone who's dealt with a toddler will recognize this behavior).

This time, they didn't get away with it. It's truly tragic thst the pilot died, but he WAS warned.

Now let's hope this doesn't escalate because if Russia attacks Turkey, we're genuinely fucked.

Say you're right and they do recognize them as human beings with thoughts, feelings, hopes, families and friends who love them. Doesn't that make it all the more terrible? To recognize someone as human and to kill them anyway for your own benefit is practically the definition of a monster.

(11-25-2015, 08:24 PM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: People see each other as humans.
Maybe this is mind blowing to some people, but you can see someone as human, kill them, and still not feel bad about it.Â

That's what soldiers do.

I can tell you from personal experience as a soldier, if at any point it stops bothering you, then you know that you have a serious problem.

You're entitled to this opinion, I just think it's a silly one. Do you really think all deaths in war come from dehumanization? That wars wouldn't happen if people respected each other more as human beings?

Sylentmana · **11-26-2015, 08:53 PM**

(11-26-2015, 11:10 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: There are a lot of monsters in this world. To pretend that suddenly wars would cease and utopia would dawn if we just "recognized the humanity in each other" is a pipe dream. That's all I'm saying.

As far as the people who shot the plane down in Turkey, I very much doubt they did what they did for "personal benefit," and rather, I suspect that they believed they were protecting their country and their people.

Quote:I can tell you from personal experience as a soldier, if at any point it stops bothering you, then you know that you have a serious problem.

You know, you're talking to a former soldier there, right? US Army, iirc. Which branch did you serve in?

I am pretending nothing, merely giving a lament about the stupidity of war. No, I don't think utopia would dawn if there were no war, but I do think life would be better for it. There is also more than just recognizing the humanity of others. They also need to care. But they won't; they never will.

As for my branch of service, I was in the U.S. Navy so technically sailor would be more appropriate than soldier. Despite this, I have never been stationed on a ship. I spent about half of my service in the middle east where I was assigned to help supplement Army and Marine security forces. I've been in Baghdad, Camp Bucca, Bahrain, and a couple weeks in some camp in Kuwait.

(11-26-2015, 01:37 PM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: You're entitled to this opinion, I just think it's a silly one. Do you really think all deaths in war come from dehumanization? That wars wouldn't happen if people respected each other more as human beings?

No I don't think so, but perhaps people would be more reticent to engage in war and perhaps there would be a little less.

Warren Castille · **11-26-2015, 09:00 PM**

ITT: People with absolutely zero knowledge of the history between Turkey and Russia place daisies in the barrels of long-loaded guns.

Makyn Loneseeker · **11-30-2015, 12:10 AM**

Ok, so, coming back to this. (whooossshhh)

Some new fuel to the fire. Turkey tells Russia not to play with fire, Turkey blocks Russian shipping in the Mediterranean, and then Russia deploys warship to beef up security. What do y'all think?

Aaron · **11-30-2015, 12:17 AM**

If people turn the other way there's gonna be a scuffle. If they don't there's still going to be a scuffle.

Sylentmana · **11-30-2015, 12:17 AM**

(11-30-2015, 12:10 AM)Makyn Loneseeker Wrote: Ok, so, coming back to this. (whooossshhh)

Some new fuel to the fire. Turkey tells Russia not to play with fire, Turkey blocks Russian shipping in the Mediterranean, and then Russia deploys warship to beef up security. What do y'all think?

Sounds like how America entered WW2.

Edgar · **11-30-2015, 01:27 AM**

I guess now would be a good time to ask if anyone wants to hang out in Canada?

Enla · **11-30-2015, 01:34 AM**

(11-30-2015, 01:27 AM)Edgar Wrote: I guess now would be a good time to ask if anyone wants to hang out in Canada?

I'll take you up on that. x_x

Chris Ganale · **11-30-2015, 01:39 AM**

You say that like Canada wouldn't be caught in the mess, too.

Lydia Lightfoot · **11-30-2015, 02:05 AM**

(11-30-2015, 01:39 AM)Chris Ganale Wrote: You say that like Canada wouldn't be caught in the mess, too.

Canada's PM has a strong anti-war stance and has made campaign promises to end Canada's participation in the Daesh bombing activities, so I would venture that even in a circumstance where Canada's allegiances would require them to contribute to a group effort, the current PM would be inclined to make said contribution as non-military as possible (e.g. food, materiel, medical supplies, etc).

Edgar · **11-30-2015, 02:09 AM**

(11-30-2015, 01:39 AM)Chris Ganale Wrote: You say that like Canada wouldn't be caught in the mess, too.

Of course there might be involvement. But I ask you: how many times has there been an attack by foreign powers on Canadian soil? How many people are gunning for the destruction of CanadaÂ of all places?

I struggle to think of any. I mean, for God's sake, when Prime Minister Harper cut funding to things like Veteran's benefits to fuel a panicked desire to weed out Terrorist activity in Canada, the primary criticism of it was that there was no activity to begin with.Â

Nobody wants to blow up Canada.

LiadansWhisper · **11-30-2015, 02:40 AM**

(11-30-2015, 12:17 AM)Sylentmana Wrote: Sounds like how America entered WW2.

From which perspective?

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