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Nnejo · **10-18-2013, 09:40 PM**

(10-18-2013, 08:59 PM)Siobhain Wrote: This is roleplay so you might want an 'evil' character but consider the potential that you don't have to go around swiping kids' lunch money and beating up innocent women in order to accomplish that image. Be subtle? Doesn't hurt at all. If enough people like your character ICly despite how evil they may be, it'll only increase the longevity.

And I think this is the thing most people tend to forget when the talk of baddies come about. Cunning evil.

Talathar Khalynn · **10-18-2013, 10:31 PM**

I play on Gilgamesh, and my characters are all good-aligned. I'm not a "heavy" RP'er - I don't game just to RP. I RP to enhance my gaming experience. I'm not really one to initiate big storylines myself, that are acted out in-game. It's not my cup of tea.

Don't get me wrong, I applaud those who do create elaborate story arcs with their characters. It's fun to take part in all that.

As to the questions on hand...

What is the hesitation with playing a criminal mind, or any "baddy" for that matter?

Honestly? I've tried RPing outright evil characters - I can do it for maybe half an hour, but after that it makes my head hurt. Literally. Every time I try. RPing evil for a couple hours and then having to lay down with a major headache for the rest of the evening is not fun for me, and I'd really rather just avoid it.

Outright evil is just too diametrically opposed to my personal mindset. I have to force myself into the role, and it's not one I enjoy. With writing, it's different, because in my mind there is a filter - you're making the other guy do bad stuffs, it's not you. But for me, RPing is more like acting, not writing. And because I tend to identify with my characters, that filter is not there, making it harder for me to be able to separate myself from what my character is saying and doing.

Thus the headaches.

I don't begrudge those who can RP evil well. I'm kind of envious, really. I just can't do it myself.

Are there any with characters like the one described in the second observation? If so what inspired you to go that route as opposed to the other?

If I did have a "baddy" character per se, they would not consider themselves "bad" at all. There would be perfectly valid reasons for all their actions, even if they were detrimental to others. In their own minds, they would be "just normal folks," who sometimes to bad or mean things for survival, or for personal gain.

It's just not something I really enjoy. It's too close to how real life plays out, for me. But, to each their own.

Are there any with characters like the one described in the first observation? If so what inspired you to go that route as opposed to the other?

Again, can't do outright evil. Headaches. Literally. Bad ones.

Do you agree or disagree that there needs to be some sort of balance struck?

For those who want epic storylines played out in-game, having a stock of villianous foes to play against would probably make things easier. Heck, even for non-epic storylines, it would make things easier.

But I don't believe that any one should be pushed to RP something they don't want to.

What you seem to be asking is for people to open their minds to the possibilities of RPing something different, and that's fine. Maybe a few people will decide to maybe try with a darker-toned character, and see where things take them.

For me, sorry for my selfishness, but I'd rather avoid the splitting headaches.

Have fun out there, peoples. And remember: fun RP should not make your head hurt.

LandStander · **10-18-2013, 11:40 PM**

I agree, I have made a few villain characters and have had a hard time finding them pals to do stuff with. A lone villain is not very good with plots unless he has a group. I was able to get my Garlean off the ground and now we are running like 9-10 members strong. I would like more thugs, bandits, highwaymen, cultists, etc. though

I literally have almost a character to fit every niche if I can ever find willing people ; ;.

But being a villain is no fun without a force to chase you down like white knights or law enforcement. If someone ever needs a criminal to chase down, just send me a message Big Grin

.

Trigonxv · **10-18-2013, 11:48 PM**

Well I am repping evil on balmung so if anyone actually needs a baddys I have no shame in causing problems XD

Myxie Tryxle · **10-19-2013, 08:10 AM**

I think part of the reason you don't see a lot of the dark types of characters is that it's difficult to play them well. A lot of villainous characters in popular media are over the top caricatures for the heroes to overcome. We can tell right away that they've been thrown into the story so the heroes have someone to fight against, and we don't learn much more than that about the bad guys. Take Supernatural, for example. We learn tons about the different good guys, their histories and relationships. Crowley's been a major antagonist for several seasons now, but all we know about him is that he's a demon and does demonic things because he's a demon. Surely there's more to Crowley than just plotting and scheming, but revealing his history would make him easier to relate with and less villainous.

It takes a fair amount of maturity, experience, and roleplaying confidence to create a three-dimensional bad guy and play it as a PC (not just an occasional NPC for a storyline). I started roleplaying when I was fifteen, and I'd say I didn't really pull off my first memorable evil player character (one with depth and characterization) until I was almost thirty. The bar for playing a fantastic, realistic bad guy is much higher than the bar for playing a similarly interesting good guy. At the very least people are going to scrutinize your roleplay more critically if you're playing an antagonistic character.

Though anti-heroes are even tougher. Still don't think I've ever pulled off an anti-hero. Maybe I'll try that for my upcoming Dresden Files game.

Nnejo · **10-19-2013, 09:57 AM**

My question is about more than just villains. Â Take for example the type of character my Y'Vali is. Â On the outside looking in, one can see she is the head Mistress of a Burlesque Club. Â The number of people who have written her off as "uninteresting" (without even rping with me) is truly astonishing to me. Â I am a writer, been doing that far longer than I've been roleplaying. When I create a character for roleplay I challenge myself to do something I've not done before.Â

Back when I did theater that was apart of the fun! Â Playing a character that was nothing like me, one who morals I would question. The best part for me is pulling it off and seeing my friends and family's faces at the end of the show. My Vali may come of as calm but that is the facade she puts on, after all she has a business to run. But she is in no way a good girl.

Nimarhie · **10-19-2013, 10:40 AM**

Isis, you know about my character K'anika, who isn't really a "good guy", she's more of a... Mel Gibson in Payback. Not really good, not really bad, not really amoral either. heh.

Taijha isn't really the white-knight material either. She'd end up stabbing herself (accidentally) with a knife before she could kill someone. She's definitely not bad-guy material either, though she would probably be called a goody-two-shoes by less than good characters or bad guys.

FreelanceWizard · **10-19-2013, 11:37 AM**

(10-19-2013, 09:57 AM)Isis Wrote: On the outside looking in, one can see she is the head Mistress of a Burlesque Club. Â The number of people who have written her off as "uninteresting" (without even rping with me) is truly astonishing to me. Â I am a writer, been doing that far longer than I've been roleplaying.

I think the problem you may be encountering might be related to the "burlesque club" concept, to be honest. Some RPers are going to see that, think "front for ERP," and dismiss the character and the group. Sad

That'll happen whether or not your group actually even has any ERP in it, because concept suggests it and that's enough for some.

As for being written off as uninteresting, I think everyone gets that from time to time, albeit usually not to their face. Sad

Not every character is everyone's cup of tea, and I'm sure there are several (many?) people who look at L'yhta and say, "Genki Girl wizard, likes to use exclamation marks, boooor-ing." Undoubtedly, some look at your concept, say "Burlesque club mistress, boooor-ing" and move on, too. It's unfortunate for a character to be judged that way, but that's the way of it.

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **10-19-2013, 02:05 PM**

(10-19-2013, 11:37 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(10-19-2013, 09:57 AM)Isis Wrote: On the outside looking in, one can see she is the head Mistress of a Burlesque Club. Â The number of people who have written her off as "uninteresting" (without even rping with me) is truly astonishing to me. Â I am a writer, been doing that far longer than I've been roleplaying.

I think the problem you may be encountering might be related to the "burlesque club" concept, to be honest. Some RPers are going to see that, think "front for ERP," and dismiss the character and the group. That'll happen whether or not your group actually even has any ERP in it, because concept suggests it and that's enough for some.

As for being written off as uninteresting, I think everyone gets that from time to time, albeit usually not to their face. Not every character is everyone's cup of tea, and I'm sure there are several (many?) people who look at L'yhta and say, "Genki Girl wizard, likes to use exclamation marks, boooor-ing." Undoubtedly, some look at your concept, say "Burlesque club mistress, boooor-ing" and move on, too. It's unfortunate for a character to be judged that way, but that's the way of it.

Â See... I'm completely on the other side of the sadly existent popular misconception when I heard 'burlesque RP characters/company'. I said it once on the page for Ambrosia and I'll say this again with a bit of elaboration:

First off, I LOVE this concept. I've always wanted to be in a guild with a legitimate burlesque background. The problem, as Freelance said, is the perception that all it is is a front for ERP. It's kind of ridiculous. Didn't anyone watch Firefly? Anara? Yeah... She's a companion, she's an entertainer and a type of psychologist, she's awesome. In the whole series there aren't a lot of examples of her conducting the more physical side of her business (I think it really only happens once and even then it's not really so black and white).

I've gone on and on about the potential power behind such a concept and if it's played well, which I hear it is, then it's an amazing idea with a lot of possible catalysts for character development. People get squeamish about such characters just like they get squeamish about so many other topics in RP. Elitism, ERP, combat drama, meta-gaming, god-modding, etc. etc. and more likely than not people are doing all those things anyway or misconstruing what someone else is doing and making it look like they're participating in one of those things.

I mourn the fact that Ambrosia is on Gilgamesh. I want it on Balmung. I also mourn the fact that I can't bring myself to level more than one character, less, on more than one server.

But I digress.

Y'vali does sound like a multi-dimensional character which is good. I keep saying that people shouldn't have to feel obligated to play bad guys because they're needed and those people might be great at it, but it's starting to sound like, if you've got the time, it'll be a good idea.

I personally have an idea for a villain I'll likely never be able to play. I just don't have the time. Q.Q But maybe someday in the future something catastrophic will happen and my one character will take a trip down the dark road to true and unshakable evil. Maybe...

Shae'ra · **10-19-2013, 02:51 PM**

I'd like to say that I find this oddly amusing since the community I came from was the opposite. (Anyone else TC: GW2?) There, it seemed like everyone was a criminal and there were few good guys. Here, it amuses me that it is so opposite.

What is the hesitation with playing a criminal mind, or any "baddy" for that matter?
Perhaps it has to do with the community as a whole and the 'acceptance' feeling. If people do not feel they will be accepted among the community for going another route (which could lead to no roleplay) they may be put off of going such route. In GW2, as mentioned above, everyone was criminal so it was actually harder for people who were 'good' or 'lawful' to get anywhere since criminals don't want to share information with people who might report them. Here, it could very well be the opposite: so many good guys that any bad guy stands no chance.

Are there any with characters like the one described in the first observation? If so what inspired you to go that route as opposed to the other?
I quite love playing devious characters and ones who go along the lines of criminals. However, I always give my character a reason for why he does it that, if known, perhaps isn't so 'bad' after all, it's just the way he goes about things that is 'wrong'. That said, I love playing caring characters but with devious undertones or devious intent behind his caring face. I currently am playing a Garlean. I am not playing a true 'baddy' since his heart isn't out for needless murder or cold-hearted blackmail. But when I play these type characters, I go with my character quote of "I'm not the bad guy, but I'm nobody's hero" as well as "If I can justify it to myself, I can do it" meaning he is grey-zoned and depending on his logic: if he can justify murder - he can (attempt to) do it. If he cannot justify it: he simply won't do it. He has his own moral scale that doesn't always line up with the rest of the society.

Do you agree or disagree that there needs to be some sort of balance struck?
Balance is always important any where you go. Good guys cannot be good unless there are bad guys, bad guys cannot be bad unless there are good guys. Remove one and what is there to determine the other's definition (if there is no 'bad' in the world, how do we define 'good'? ) However, I also do not believe in forcing people to play something or another just for a balance. If people should have the right to roleplay whichever kind of character they wish. I do hope that over time a balance will be found. I do believe there are many 'less than favorable' guys out there -- I think it's a matter of finding them as most, smart, criminals wont run around singing at the top of their lungs about the slices of Lalafell they left in the back alley.

sanguineFenrir · **10-19-2013, 02:56 PM**

Another Balmung citizen here, with my two gil:

Preface: As a "writer before roleplayer" a lot of this response is going to draw from my own writings to illustrate the point. I don't ascribe to "typical" morals in real life either, so that will color my views on good guy/bad guy. To put it simply, what bothers a lot of people doesn't turn my head, but things that some people would find inconsequential are absolute blasphemy in my book.

As I've said in a few other posts, I don't derive enjoyment from the typical "good guys versus villain trying to foil them or do whatever" because of my strong dislike for large or group plots, and the aforementioned stigma some people have noted that comes with playing a villain outright.

Rather, in most of my stories (and thus most of my RP characters) the antagonist comes from within the character themselves. In my "books", it might be a force of strife that moves between the main characters. My most notable universes have always had a lot of tension between "the protagonists"--in some, there's an added societal aspect and they are working against the government or a larger-scale idea. But there's usually never a defined Big Bad, grey or no, that they have to stop. To continue the trope analogy, I like to work with Black and Grey or Grey and Grey moralities.

A common theme for this conflict in my works is "pursuit of power", for whatever reason. Sometimes the evil is more distinct, or it's in the name of swinging a balance one way or the other, but my works usually deal with denial and deep-seated desires on the part of the characters. Also notable is the fact that my works and casts tend to become a lot darker or corrupted, and characters tend to be confronted with forking paths in their concepts that I like to play with. Someone mentioned they can't play an evil character without getting a headache...well, I'm something of an opposite, as I can't have a character and keep their concept "free of darkness or torment" for long if I was paid.Â

I have selfish characters, I have strict, ethic abiding ones, I have extroverted ones who are full of life, and hedonists and innocents, and everything else. But they all wind up suffering some way or another and having to bend over backwards to achieve happiness--if I allow them to.

To use Kevaraan as an example for why I don't like showing my characters' villainous qualities overtly in RP, I had him react to something plot-related by having a nightmare he was sure would actually happen. Some other players took him questioning his future loyalties out of fear as a legitimate threat, and they informed some affiliates who knew next to nothing of my character. My own introversion (and lack of control) often makes it hard to play my characters as true as I'd like, so during this time I actually did planning for The Bad Ending because OOCly, I was sure it would happen. We were able to rope it back before Kevaraan fell off the precipice, though, and it made me think twice about reacting in the open. If the streak comes out again, it will probably be with people I communicate with beforehand, and isolated.

Although his XIV incarnation is neutral, Kevaraan is a character who often has different parts of his personality accentuated depending on the story and my mood. Sometimes he's just like he is here. Sometimes he's more stable or authoritative. In one story I did, however, the roles of his NPC and himself were reversed: he was a violent, if poetic, cannibalistic murderer hunting the girl in question out of a desire to serve her and bring her over to his side (of evil.) He was a lot like Albedo from Xenosaga, for those that had played that. Had this RP mess gone south and he cracked in game, I was prepared to bring back the latter persona--even if that meant quitting the guild and hardly RPing at all afterward due to the issues people (and I) have with villains. I'm aware some of this stems from OOC stuff, and am working on how to "accurately" portray him in a more neutral light, as he "is." My main issue with RP is the collaborative aspect making me cram up and play my characters inaccurately.

Tl;dr: I'd rather work with the villainous ASPECTS of a character (even a hero) than have one outright and look for RP on one. I have no outright heroes and few outright villains. However, the NPC I mentioned would probably get seen as a villain which is one reason I swept her under the rug for now.

EDIT: As Freelance said, there could just be a disinterest in the concept. I googled "burlesque" and it doesn't seem like an outright brothel. Like all things, there's a good and a bad way to write it, and your establishment doesn't strike me as a front for ERP. I'm not on Gilgamesh, but the way someone worded it with an example from Firefly sounds interesting, especially the psychological aspect.

C'kayah Polaali · **10-19-2013, 04:28 PM**

(10-18-2013, 08:15 PM)Isis Wrote:
(10-18-2013, 08:04 PM)C Wrote: I'm comin', I'm comin, keep yer pants on!Â

Pants? Hmph! I wear skirts sir! Or ma'am...for that matter. There is always room for such things. I feel like they can only add to a story.

Â Alas, I've been getting excited about the idea of playing a baddie associated with Ambrosia (what better way to collect people's secrets than a burlesque club?), but I just noticed you're on Gilgamesh. I may have to create a character there to check out the RP scene.

Thinking more about the question, though, I think some games create an environment that - I want to say "discourages" creating villains, but it's really more that there's a gravitational pull away from villains. Most of the quests I've seen in FF so far, for instance, really cast you as a hero and a force for good. I think a lot of people who start playing the game and then start accreting their character concept as they're questing experience this as a tug toward playing a heroic character. I'm a method actor sort of RPer, and I certainly feel that tug. It was far easier to come up with a villainous character concept for my dark elf in EQ2, for instance, because so many of the quests were from a villainous point of view.Â

In FF, I think you have to explicitly compartmentalize your villainous character that much more, so that you're in an OOC mindset when you quest.

Magellan · **10-19-2013, 05:43 PM**

(10-18-2013, 07:56 PM)Isis Wrote: Come out baddies. Come out and play! My character is the Head Mistress of a burlesque lounge for crying out loud. I had half expected more "undesireables" to show up than what I've seen so far. Oh well a girl can dream I suppose.

whereas I've been an active part of several knightly orders that have attracted a lot of less-than well intentioned types. It's so weird that we've had completely opposite experiences =P

your original post honestly surprised me greatly. I have constantly been asking myself 'where are the good guys' and it seems you get nothing but xD. I wish people would pay better attention to the groups they sign up for, so that you could get the type of people you are actually trying to recruit!

I hope you start having better luck!

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **10-19-2013, 06:05 PM**

(10-19-2013, 05:43 PM)Magellan Wrote:
(10-18-2013, 07:56 PM)Isis Wrote: Come out baddies. Come out and play! My character is the Head Mistress of a burlesque lounge for crying out loud. I had half expected more "undesireables" to show up than what I've seen so far. Oh well a girl can dream I suppose.

whereas I've been an active part of several knightly orders that have attracted a lot of less-than well intentioned types. It's so weird that we've had completely opposite experiences =P

your original post honestly surprised me greatly. I have constantly been asking myself 'where are the good guys' and it seems you get nothing but xD. I wish people would pay better attention to the groups they sign up for, so that you could get the type of people you are actually trying to recruit!

I hope you start having better luck!

Clearly... All the good guys are on Gilgamesh.

Time to set up an Exchange Alignment-RPers program.

I'll foster a tiny white knightling. <3

Nako Vesh · **10-19-2013, 07:27 PM**

You might keep in mind that not everyone is playing an overt, mustache twirling villain. You very well could have interacted with many villains without realizing it. For example, most people I interacted with on one of my characters in GW2 had a very charming impression of her. However, bar that same character from her goals of gaining power and influence, and Â she would have no trouble taking a life.

It's also possible that this game's setting makes for more "good" characters as well. Final Fantasy rarely does morally gray.

It's funny this thread exists though because I normally play morally gray characters. This time though I wanted to play an almost hilariously over the top white knight just for a change!

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