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Jomoru · **12-24-2013, 03:01 AM**

(12-23-2013, 09:02 PM)K Wrote:
(12-23-2013, 07:50 PM)Jomoru Wrote:
(12-23-2013, 07:03 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(12-23-2013, 05:51 PM)Jomoru Wrote: You cna quote it all you want, it won't change the distinct power structures around that sexual dynamic.

Nor does it change what has been explicitly stated by the devs. You folk need to stop letting your own cultural biases color your understanding of a society that is clearly not based around monogamy. It's highly disingenuous to distinguish Keeper and Seeker cultures by labeling them matriarchal vs. patriarchal, especially when the former culture is being OOCly misunderstood due to looking at it through the lens of monogamy-bias and rather inaccurate and misapplied comparisons to lion tribes.

I am not talking about monogamy. I am talking about the real power of the position. Lack of holding official or even unofficial leadership of the grouping doesn't change the fact that he has power over determining the future generation.Â

This can easily lead to all sorts of horrific abuses. Saying "Well he doesn't officially lead the tribe" doesn't matter then.

I don't understand your point. Assuming it was a situation where the tribe only had one nuhn(which wouldn't be entirely ideal I imagine), then even if he suddenly got it in his head that he can do whatever he wanted because he has an important role, it doesn't change the fact that he can just as easily be replaced by someone less erratic and selfish. He's doing himself no favours by testing his luck and behaving however he wants. I don't see why a nuhn would be exempt from disciplinary action executed by the tribe leaders. Last thing he'd want is to get himself exiled for even killed just because he was feeling a little arrogant.

You have some very odd concepts of how power works. You seem to assume that a tribal leader would have a level of absolute power that would make the Kings of France jealous.

You also seem to think these people who've held onto their traditions are going to drop them casually because someone is a dick.

So lets back up. The Nunh is a recognized position. It may not be chief, or Priestess or Godking or whatever they want to call the head of their grouping, but said person has real politicla power by dint of having a position.

Can the chief punish him for being a dick? Potentially but if no one can challenge him they have to throw away their traditions in doing so.

Could the chief turn a blind eye to abuses of power because the chief doesn't care? Also possible.

Could their society decide even if a woman has no desire for sex with him force them because that's "For the good of the tribe"

Could the biggest strongest Miqote male in a hunting ground be forced into a role he has no desire for because "its for the good of my people?"2

There's more than enough places in lore for abuses of power to occur, its not like Miqote are described as being super holier than thou tolerant types who value the freedom of others above all.

Maveree · **12-24-2013, 03:39 AM**

(12-24-2013, 03:01 AM)Jomoru Wrote:
(12-23-2013, 09:02 PM)K Wrote: I don't understand your point. Assuming it was a situation where the tribe only had one nuhn(which wouldn't be entirely ideal I imagine), then even if he suddenly got it in his head that he can do whatever he wanted because he has an important role, it doesn't change the fact that he can just as easily be replaced by someone less erratic and selfish. He's doing himself no favours by testing his luck and behaving however he wants. I don't see why a nuhn would be exempt from disciplinary action executed by the tribe leaders. Last thing he'd want is to get himself exiled for even killed just because he was feeling a little arrogant.

You have some very odd concepts of how power works. You seem to assume that a tribal leader would have a level of absolute power that would make the Kings of France jealous.

You also seem to think these people who've held onto their traditions are going to drop them casually because someone is a dick.

So lets back up. The Nunh is a recognized position. It may not be chief, or Priestess or Godking or whatever they want to call the head of their grouping, but said person has real politicla power by dint of having a position.

Can the chief punish him for being a dick? Potentially but if no one can challenge him they have to throw away their traditions in doing so.

Could the chief turn a blind eye to abuses of power because the chief doesn't care? Also possible.

Could their society decide even if a woman has no desire for sex with him force them because that's "For the good of the tribe"

Could the biggest strongest Miqote male in a hunting ground be forced into a role he has no desire for because "its for the good of my people?"2

There's more than enough places in lore for abuses of power to occur, its not like Miqote are described as being super holier than thou tolerant types who value the freedom of others above all.

True. But your theory is nothing more than fanon, my friend. It is not canon, nor should it be confused as such. Also, Miqo'te* :B

FreelanceWizard · **12-24-2013, 04:47 AM**

(12-24-2013, 03:39 AM)Maveree Wrote: But your theory is nothing more than fanon, my friend. It is not canon, nor should it be confused as such.

Unfortunately, it's also conjecture to say that a nunh has absolutely no soft power and can't be a slimy bastard because the tribal leaders would keep him in check, since the devs have not said anything on the issue. Presumably, most Seeker territories can't be that way, or the society would have ripped itself apart given the ready alternative of the city-states, but even that is conjecture. While there is one territory of one tribe in game, it's variant compared to other sources of lore (in that instance, the nunh does hold leadership authority, which dev post lore specifies is rare), so extrapolating from it is complicated.

So, ultimately, on this specific topic (how nunh behave in practice), we're all making conjectures in a grey area of lore, whether it be from our interpretation of lore posts, an argument from anthropology, or an argument from biology (which isn't on this thread, but has been floated on these forums before). What's nice about that freedom is that it gives our characters lots of ways to have unique backstories and to generate RP from those backstories.

Clover · **12-24-2013, 05:24 AM**

(12-23-2013, 07:50 PM)Jomoru Wrote: I am not talking about monogamy. I am talking about the real power of the position. Lack of holding official or even unofficial leadership of the grouping doesn't change the fact that he has power over determining the future generation.Â

This can easily lead to all sorts of horrific abuses. Saying "Well he doesn't officially lead the tribe" doesn't matter then.

Well, look at it this way. The lore might be "vague", but it certainly doesn't point in that direction. Not only it doesn't mention that females are abused; the ones we see ingame are willing (one of them even complains that the Nunh is not performing his duties as much as she'd like (?) ); the lore also states that a Tia can leave the tribe and become a Nunh so long as any female is supporting him. Without their support, he's nothing.

If anything, the lore seems to suggest that the opinion of females is not only important but also primordial. This said, the case of abuse seems unlikely, or not the norm. A different thing is people's personal fantasies; those are unlimited, and you could create a special tribe where the Nunh abuses the females if you're so keen on it!

Jomoru · **12-24-2013, 07:57 AM**

(12-24-2013, 05:24 AM)Clover Wrote:
(12-23-2013, 07:50 PM)Jomoru Wrote: I am not talking about monogamy. I am talking about the real power of the position. Lack of holding official or even unofficial leadership of the grouping doesn't change the fact that he has power over determining the future generation.Â

This can easily lead to all sorts of horrific abuses. Saying "Well he doesn't officially lead the tribe" doesn't matter then.
Well, look at it this way. The lore might be "vague", but it certainly doesn't point in that direction. Not only it doesn't mention that females are abused; the ones we see ingame are willing (one of them even complains that the Nunh is not performing his duties as much as she'd like (?) ); the lore also states that a Tia can leave the tribe and become a Nunh so long as any female is supporting him. Without their support, he's nothing.

If anything, the lore seems to suggest that the opinion of females is not only important but also primordial. This said, the case of abuse seems unlikely, or not the norm. A different thing is people's personal fantasies; those are unlimited, and you could create a special tribe where the Nunh abuses the females if you're so keen on it!

I am not saying All Seeker society is a systematic soul destroying system. I am saying that as the system exists and some people do exploit systems. Â Seeker societies are large and potentially quite diverse, allowing for a character to have a backstory where the system failed them thus they became an adventurer.. well that's pretty much the most basic run of the mill story for how someone ends up in such a path.

As for the assumption that women hold all the power in the Nunh relationship. How much are you willing to put up with before you'd abandon everything you know, everyone you know to go off to an unknown place? Because that's honestly a point of last resort.

Clover · **12-24-2013, 08:56 AM**

(12-23-2013, 07:50 PM)Jomoru Wrote: I am not saying All Seeker society is a systematic soul destroying system. I am saying that as the system exists and some people do exploit systems. Â Seeker societies are large and potentially quite diverse, allowing for a character to have a backstory where the system failed them thus they became an adventurer.. well that's pretty much the most basic run of the mill story for how someone ends up in such a path.

As for the assumption that women hold all the power in the Nunh relationship. How much are you willing to put up with before you'd abandon everything you know, everyone you know to go off to an unknown place? Because that's honestly a point of last resort.

Of course, if anyone wants to play a rare tribe where the Nunh toys with his power and the huntress (for some reason despite the fact that they're a majority) allow it, anything can happen. It just doesn't have to be taken as the norm, or as something that will certainly happen.

About females leaving with a Tia... I more see it like "how much do you like this Tia/simply dislike the current Nunh that you're willing to leave with him?"
The lore also states that such cases are "rare", for females tend to be more interested on the Nunh than on useless Tias, so their situation doesn't sound too bad.

ansemaru · **12-24-2013, 12:58 PM**

On the note of female Seekers leaving their current tribe with a Tia to start a new one- I actually imagine it happens fairly often. Even with the population ratio of male to female Miqo'te, there are still going to be a number of Tias in a tribe, not all of whom are qualified or willing to challenge the Nunh. In fact, if too many of them are present at one time, it would cause problems- they don't serve as active hunters for the tribe, and spend a lot of time squabbling over politics and trying to rally the tribeswomen to their side. Any more than two or three Tias under a Nunh in a tribe the size of the U would be unsustainable. So with that in mind, and given the precedent of many social animals that live in similar family groups (lions being the obvious most apt comparison) as well as human societies with comparable social structures, it should actually be far more common for a Tia to leave his tribe to start his own or latch on to a floundering tribe than it is for one to stick around and challenge his birth tribe's Nunh, or at least equally as common.

And I don't think every female Seeker would balk at the offer to start a new tribe and leave her current one. We've seen that the allegiances of the U tribe huntresses are fluid, and though it's an upheaval from their established life, many people do feel fine moving to a new region or a new job, so to speak. Unless the situation was catastrophically abusive, or there were personal motives/fears in the way, most Seeker women wouldn't be entirely averse to leaving their current tribe and its Nunh. But it ultimately comes down to personal choice in that area. The Nunh might be a close friend, a father, or someone seen as more than just the guy everyone uses to sire children. Or he might have threatened those who seek to leave his tribe. The given Seeker might be unadventurous, and happy to stay close to the land where she was born, or scared of the outside world. Or she might really hate the Tia who's trying to leave the tribe. There are an equal number of reasons to leave as there are to stay, but it's pretty apparent that Seeker tribe allegiances are fairly fluid within what the canon presents us.

As for the distribution of power, it is absolutely established as in favor of the men of the tribe from what we've seen in-game. There's a grey area, thanks to word of god from the devs, but the U tribe absolutely fits the bill of a patriarchal society, albeit one that is not actively destructive to the lives of those within it. You should definitely feel willing to use that grey area to your advantage for headcanon, fanon, and backstory, since there are definitely ways to interpret the system with Nunhs and Tias into something that is ultimately controlled by the women of a Seeker tribe, but from the baseline established by the basic structure of Seeker society and from what we've actually seen in-game, it's way easier to interpret Seeker tribes as societies where men hold true political power.

Tiergan · **12-24-2013, 02:55 PM**

(12-24-2013, 12:58 PM)ansemaru Wrote: On the note of female Seekers leaving their current tribe with a Tia to start a new one- I actually imagine it happens fairly often. Even with the population ratio of male to female Miqo'te, there are still going to be a number of Tias in a tribe, not all of whom are qualified or willing to challenge the Nunh. In fact, if too many of them are present at one time, it would cause problems- they don't serve as active hunters for the tribe, and spend a lot of time squabbling over politics and trying to rally the tribeswomen to their side. Any more than two or three Tias under a Nunh in a tribe the size of the U would be unsustainable. So with that in mind, and given the precedent of many social animals that live in similar family groups (lions being the obvious most apt comparison) as well as human societies with comparable social structures, it should actually be far more common for a Tia to leave his tribe to start his own or latch on to a floundering tribe than it is for one to stick around and challenge his birth tribe's Nunh, or at least equally as common.

And I don't think every female Seeker would balk at the offer to start a new tribe and leave her current one. We've seen that the allegiances of the U tribe huntresses are fluid, and though it's an upheaval from their established life, many people do feel fine moving to a new region or a new job, so to speak. Unless the situation was catastrophically abusive, or there were personal motives/fears in the way, most Seeker women wouldn't be entirely averse to leaving their current tribe and its Nunh. But it ultimately comes down to personal choice in that area. The Nunh might be a close friend, a father, or someone seen as more than just the guy everyone uses to sire children. Or he might have threatened those who seek to leave his tribe. The given Seeker might be unadventurous, and happy to stay close to the land where she was born, or scared of the outside world. Or she might really hate the Tia who's trying to leave the tribe. There are an equal number of reasons to leave as there are to stay, but it's pretty apparent that Seeker tribe allegiances are fairly fluid within what the canon presents us.

As for the distribution of power, it is absolutely established as in favor of the men of the tribe from what we've seen in-game. There's a grey area, thanks to word of god from the devs, but the U tribe absolutely fits the bill of a patriarchal society, albeit one that is not actively destructive to the lives of those within it. You should definitely feel willing to use that grey area to your advantage for headcanon, fanon, and backstory, since there are definitely ways to interpret the system with Nunhs and Tias into something that is ultimately controlled by the women of a Seeker tribe, but from the baseline established by the basic structure of Seeker society and from what we've actually seen in-game, it's way easier to interpret Seeker tribes as societies where men hold true political power.

The lore SE's provided us already states that women don't tend to leave with a Tia very often:

"There is only one other way a tia can become a nunh, and that is to leave his tribe, and start his own. This, of course, requires several females to accomplish, and most female Seekers of the Sun are rarely impressed by a male who cannot defeat a nunh."

One thing a lot of people seem to miss however, is that the lore also states a tribe can have more then one nunh- ("Depending on its size, a tribe may have multiple nunh (a ratio of one nunh per ten to fifty females is average).")Â This is similar to lion prides that have a coalition of male lions working together instead of just one male.

There's no saying that perhaps a second nunh might leave his tribe and some huntresses might go with him.

One thing that's always puzzled me about the miqo'te lore however, is that I noticed a lot of sources stating that there can be more then the original 26 tribes: [[Â "As all letters of the alphabet are already taken by the 26 original tribes, any new tribes founded by tia are named with a second letter, such as "Ma" (e.g. "Ma'shtola"). These tribes tend to die out due to the aforementioned lack of women. " ]]

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com states this as does http://ffxivrealm.com - but the original miqo'te naming convention thread that is cited as the source doesn't mention that.

Anyone know if that's true or someone's pipedream that got shoe-horned in?

ansemaru · **12-24-2013, 03:04 PM**

Ah, you're right about that being in the lore! I must've missed that the first time reading through. But the reasoning of "a Tia who can't even beat a Nunh isn't going to be seen as a worthwhile leader" is pretty straightforward. As is the fact that tribes can have multiple Nunhs, depending on the size. So a Nunh striking out to start his own tribe would be way less of an uphill battle than a Tia doing the same, since he's more likely to be seen favorably by potential tribe members in the first place.

As for the naming bit, I'm fairly certain that's just fanon that has gotten passed around long enough for the source to be obscured, and that everyone has accepted as more or less canon. It seems like a fairly harmless naming convention, though, so it's not really an issue in my eyes.

FreelanceWizard · **12-24-2013, 03:56 PM**

(12-24-2013, 03:04 PM)ansemaru Wrote: As for the naming bit, I'm fairly certain that's just fanon that has gotten passed around long enough for the source to be obscured, and that everyone has accepted as more or less canon. It seems like a fairly harmless naming convention, though, so it's not really an issue in my eyes.

It's actually official lore.

It's from a dev post. Specifically, the devs explain that a tia can form a new tribe using a two letter prefix, but this is rare as Seeker women will rarely follow such males. A subsequent dev post further notes that doing so makes all parties involved outcasts: "And is far more accepted than merely leaving the tribe to make one's own (which, ultimately makes that person an outcast). This is why you will almost never see Seekers of the Sun with tribal letters beyond the original 26 (like the Ma'shtola I mentioned earlier). There are simply not that many, and those that do exist, rarely admit it, for fear of ostracism."

ansemaru · **12-24-2013, 03:59 PM**

Well, that was very informative! I guess I've still got a ways to go on learning all the ins and outs of Seeker lore, and I appreciate you clarifying, FreelanceWizard.

FreelanceWizard · **12-24-2013, 04:02 PM**

No prob. I'm happy to help out with the lore references (when I have them, at any rate). Smile

It'd be nice if the devs would update the naming conventions post with their subsequent posts on Seeker culture (sadly, they rarely post on Keeper culture Sad

), but that's why I keep around my summarized list of miqo'te lore posts so I can quickly reference stuff. Smile

thesunalsorises · **12-24-2013, 04:20 PM**

(12-24-2013, 02:55 PM)Tiergan Wrote: One thing that's always puzzled me about the miqo'te lore however, is that I noticed a lot of sources stating that there can be more then the original 26 tribes: [[Â "As all letters of the alphabet are already taken by the 26 original tribes, any new tribes founded by tia are named with a second letter, such as "Ma" (e.g. "Ma'shtola"). These tribes tend to die out due to the aforementioned lack of women. " ]]

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com states this as does http://ffxivrealm.com - but the original miqo'te naming convention thread that is cited as the source doesn't mention that.

Anyone know if that's true or someone's pipedream that got shoe-horned in?

That's a quote from Fernehalwes back in the 1.0 lore forums. Here's the original post, and I also found a small compilation of Miqo'te lore from the forums.

Tiergan · **12-24-2013, 05:34 PM**

Thanks for the clarification folks!

An interesting thing I learned from those posts you guys linked is:

Quote:There are tia within the 26 existing tribes who, instead of defeating an existing nunh, prove their worth to the tribe by extending its hunting grounds. These tia will venture out into the world and claim territory of their own (by either finding somewhere unoccupied, or taking an area by force from another tribe). If they can maintain it for an extended period of time, then they become the nunh of that area, while still remaining a member of their original tribe.

That means there definitely can be multiple nunhs and small sub-tribes within each tribe.

This makes me feel a lot better about a lot of the Nunh-players I've seen running around in game, as I've had sort of conflicted feelings about them before.Â It was hard for me to reconcile how there could be that many when supposedly there should have been only one or two per tribe.

C'kayah Polaali · **12-24-2013, 06:08 PM**

(12-24-2013, 05:34 PM)Tiergan Wrote: Thanks for the clarification folks!

An interesting thing I learned from those posts you guys linked is:

Quote:There are tia within the 26 existing tribes who, instead of defeating an existing nunh, prove their worth to the tribe by extending its hunting grounds. These tia will venture out into the world and claim territory of their own (by either finding somewhere unoccupied, or taking an area by force from another tribe). If they can maintain it for an extended period of time, then they become the nunh of that area, while still remaining a member of their original tribe.

That means there definitely can be multiple nunhs and small sub-tribes within each tribe.

This makes me feel a lot better about a lot of the Nunh-players I've seen running around in game, as I've had sort of conflicted feelings about them before.Â It was hard for me to reconcile how there could be that many when supposedly there should have been only one or two per tribe.

I've personally got a different take on those. I see being a Nunh as a role, rather than a title, in the sense that you're a Nunh when you're back with your tribe and your breeding group doing your Nunh thing. If you leave your tribe and your breeding group and you go out and do a bunch of adventuring (especially if you don't handwave the travel times), you've got to figure you're away from your group for months. I don't see any way in hell that a Nunh is going to go back to their group after a long absence and not have been replaced.

C'kayah (for his own reasons, partially influenced by the tension between his drives to become a Nunh and his desire to not return to his tribe) tends to think of absent Nunhs as sort of wannabes.

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