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Anstarra · **01-14-2014, 09:04 AM**

(01-13-2014, 12:07 PM)Black Hat Wrote: I'm not going to get into the rhetoric about DPS classes sucking, just going to go from experience and what I call the "Clockwork Pain" rotation. Lancer/Dragoon was my first class to 50 on Lukas and even though I chose to fiddle with other things after nearly complete darklight gear and no relic weapon (Darklight drop instead), I have a rotation I'm happy with and have yet to hear much complaint about. Course, I don't tend to go out of my way to mess with the extremes because I feel that PuGs suck, but when I roulette and do occasionally try to topple Titan HM with a PuG, I'm never saddened by my damage output.

Also, Lukas has no PUG/MNK abilities. Just 30 levels of Marauder. Here goes.

Single Target - Standard

Starting on left or right side, Heavy Thrust - (First Combo) True Thrust, Vorpal Thrust, Full Thrust - Fracture - Phlebotomize - Heavy Thrust - >Move to back< - Impulse Drive, Disembowel, Chaos Thrust.

Single Target - Boss

Starting on left or right side, Blood for Blood, Heavy Thrust - (First Combo) True Thrust, Vorpal Thrust, Full Thrust >Move around to the other side or through at your discretion< - Fracture - Phlebotomize - Heavy Thrust - >Move to back< - Impulse Drive, Disembowel, Chaos Thrust. - >Return to starting side<Â
Blood for Blood ends either at Disembowel or Chaos Thrust depending on how quick you are on keystrokes, however the heavy thrust buff is still running. Continue combo like normal, adjust for Blood for Blood when its CD is finished.Â

Mobs of 4 or higher: Target side: Blood for Blood, Heavy Thrust - Ring of Thorns - Dragonfire Drop (If available), Re-target middle of mob, Doomspike x3 - Repeat as needed.Â

Mobs of 3 or less: Standard Single Target Rotation.Â

As for PVP and running around: Do the jump abilities not work? I'll be poking into PVP soon, but reading the comments made me ask the question.

Really, the issue with melee and dodging is based on equipment and coordination. If your comp is laggy and slow, you're going to suck at melee and be a liability to harder duties and raids. I've got hand-eye coordination though and even I get caught on the edge of an AoE now and then. (And yes, I've been knocked off by the Titan-fist, hung my head in shame, and moved on)

Last two things:

1> Hellooooo, if you're running at someone with a long stick and a knife attached to it while that person is throwing live grenades at your feet, you either move or die. I think the game is realistic in its interpretation of combat (At least as realistic as a fantasy MMO can be, mind you). Of course the goobers in the back firing arrows or throwing their own "grenades" aren't going to get hit or threatened as often, they're BEHIND THE LINE. Is it fair? Nah, but War isn't fair.... *Theatrical squint, lights a cigar with a match struck off his chin-stubble* >.>

2> Elusive Jump doesn't fail for me, maybe it's how quick I am with the "OH SHIT" button it's attached to, I dunno. It IS, however, practically useless because of its cooldown.

-Cheers

Black Hat

A more efficient, I've found, Full DPS rotation on bosses is as follows:

Heavy Thrust, Fracture, Phlebotomize, Impulse Drive, Disembowel, Chaos Thrust, True Thrust, Vorpal Thrust, Full Thrust. Then HT, Frac, Phle, then the TT-VT-FT combo twice, then ID-Dis-CT again, then HT, Frac, Phle, etc.

Basically the point is to ALWAYS have Heavy Thrust buff and Disembowel debuff up, to optimize damage return. It's also possible to go straight for the ID-Dis-CT combo BEFORE doing Frac-Phleb, but since Frac-Phleb last the same time as HT buff, I've found it mentally easier to queue them up together.

Also, making sure to actually use Jump, Dragonfire Dive, and, on fights where it doesn't matter if you blow your Stun, both Leg Sweep and the stunning jump whose name I forget right now; because of faster animations and them being off Global Cooldown, you can squeeze them in between other attacks.

Fun things happen when the stars align; Dragoons can pull big fat shiny numbers! In CT yesterday, for instance, when I used my auto-crit fully-buffed Full Thrust immediately followed by a pumped-up Jump (which also crit) they landed for 1246 and 1006 respectively, within a second of each other. It felt cool.

But this isn't a DPS-optimization thread. Dragoons can DO damage. This thread is about the balancing act which leads to desirability in a raid. Basically, DPS + Utility - Inconvenience (for healers, typically) = Desirability. If a Dragoon is doing enough damage, and not getting hit by more AoEs than anyone else, it can counter the comparative loss in utility versus other classes. The argument I ventured forth at the onset was that ON AVERAGE, because melee is actually more difficult to play than ranged (especially non-casting-based ranged, i.e. Bards) they end up needing more healing, thus costing more resources while not contributing sufficiently MORE damage than ranged such as BLM/BRD/SMN, especially since Dragoons in particular DON'T provide utility.

I base the 'requiring more healing' argument on simple observation. Run enough of ANYTHING and you'll see Melee get hit more than Ranged. It's simple logic; there are quite a few more attacks that only hit close to enemies, than ones that only hit far. YES if you're good you take no damage, but same goes for ranged, and if you're doing the same DPS as another skilled player but he's contributing utility (such as songs) then you are in fact inferior.

One argument that I've heard however, in this thread, that I like, is the BURST potential of Dragoons. It IS useful to be able to unload heavy damage in a short time, both in PVE against special adds and in PVP as long as you've got someone to hold your target still for a moment. As my anti-Dragoon friend said when we PVP'd together, Dragoons are good hunter-killers. Again, as long as someone holds our target, we can mess them up =3

Aleister · **01-14-2014, 02:15 PM**

(01-13-2014, 01:58 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(01-13-2014, 01:51 AM)Anstarra Wrote:
(01-13-2014, 01:35 AM)Aleister Wrote: Heated debate going on here. :surprised:

Indeed! Much as I remain uncertain as to the overall balance of Melee versus Ranged in this game, ESPECIALLY in PVP where we need specific abilities, as Melee, to SOMETIMES counter an ability that everyone but us can abuse, I'm rather reassured by the number of posts claiming that, especially in Coil, Dragoons are desired. Maybe the situation is not hopeless. Which isn't to say that it's QUITE fair, but I'm certainly not about to quit playing Dragoon.

I can't speak much towards PvP, as I don't engage in it, but what I do remember of leveling Lancer and Pugilist (for Archer) left me with the feeling that Melee would be boned by PvP. Â Primarily because there's something really strange with the hitbox - it's buggy and extremely small, relative to other games I've played. Â So I could see that with Sprint, that's an issue, especially since it comes off CD faster than your counter skill does.

On the other hand, Melee can do a lot to interrupt a caster simply by being close to them (and while healers do have some "get away from me" spells, they do have CDs).

There is no issue with the hitbox PvP wise except for sharp turn sprints around the corner on dividers but that is tricky to do and I commend anyone doing it well. The jump glitch which will be fixed soon is the only problem melee vs PvP wise.

Not as much with interrupts as you think unless you're a bard or duo barding it but they aren't melee.

LiadansWhisper · **01-14-2014, 03:37 PM**

(01-14-2014, 09:04 AM)Anstarra Wrote: I base the 'requiring more healing' argument on simple observation. Run enough of ANYTHING and you'll see Melee get hit more than Ranged. It's simple logic; there are quite a few more attacks that only hit close to enemies, than ones that only hit far. YES if you're good you take no damage, but same goes for ranged, and if you're doing the same DPS as another skilled player but he's contributing utility (such as songs) then you are in fact inferior.

Actually, Gharen rarely gets hit by things - although he was having a night last night. Â Ranged were getting hit by stuff left and right - some unavoidable, some out of sheer stupidity. Â During Turn 4, it is difficult on both Melee and Ranged (because there's a 360 AoE around some of the mobs from what I can tell, so you just have to get hit by it if you're Melee and DPSing those adds). Â However, our Black Mage routinely kills herself by DPSing the add with the anti-magic stoneskin, whereas I've never seen Gharen actually die to it.

In general, though, DRG are much more durable, as it were, than Monks due to their heavier armor. Â And again - the vast majority of things that would otherwise hit a melee player are completely avoidable. Â You can dodge them. Â Tanks have to dodge them, too. Â If you're getting hit by them, you've made a mistake.

Quote:One argument that I've heard however, in this thread, that I like, is the BURST potential of Dragoons. It IS useful to be able to unload heavy damage in a short time, both in PVE against special adds and in PVP as long as you've got someone to hold your target still for a moment. As my anti-Dragoon friend said when we PVP'd together, Dragoons are good hunter-killers. Again, as long as someone holds our target, we can mess them up =3

DRG have really nice burst and the utility of being able to hold adds for a few moments if a tank goes down (yep, Gharen was tanking stuff with his face last night, was amaaaaazing).

Steel Wolf · **01-25-2014, 02:40 PM**

As a potential new DRG alt looking to be created on Balmung, I just wanted to interject that this has been a fascinating thread to read through.Â :3

I'm not sure how deep into the endgame rotations this potential character would venture in to--if anything, he's probably going to be a way to explore the job without having to re-write Steel's history too much....but honestly the level of skill needed to play the class effectively is both intimidating and exciting.

Sorry...just wanted to interject that and offer my thanks for this thread.Â Carry on.Â :>

Anstarra · **01-26-2014, 05:25 PM**

(01-25-2014, 02:40 PM)Steel Wolf Wrote: As a potential new DRG alt looking to be created on Balmung, I just wanted to interject that this has been a fascinating thread to read through.Â :3

I'm not sure how deep into the endgame rotations this potential character would venture in to--if anything, he's probably going to be a way to explore the job without having to re-write Steel's history too much....but honestly the level of skill needed to play the class effectively is both intimidating and exciting.

Sorry...just wanted to interject that and offer my thanks for this thread.Â Carry on.Â :>

Happy to hear from ya ^^ Don't want to discourage anyone from playing Dragoon, with this thread! I'm a die-hard, myself, despite some people's objections to melee in general.

Ideally, this thread will serve as warning and incentive both, to aspiring Dragoons, to try their hardest to optimize their performance and show people that yes, melee can be good, it can bring a lot to the table. I mean, a lot of times all a team WANTS is DPS; specific abilities like silences and slows and so on are just spice. So, sure, sometimes you'll NEED a certain composition (or think you do, especially if you're undergeared) but most of the time just being able to unload damage and not be a sponge on the healers' resources is all anyone wants from a DPS.

Kieron Lohengrin · **02-03-2014, 03:25 AM**

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVYxu6yMYSs

Ilwe'ran · **02-04-2014, 05:52 AM**

Mmh, it may be the wrong topic but I'm lv 45 DRG so far and there is something that make me scream on that class. It's not about the skills, it's not about the DPS.. It's about the gear.

Why my lv 38 HQ gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than the AF1 ? WHY lv 46 / 47 gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than AF2 ???

Have a look yourself :
- Scale gear 47 HQ -> 143 def 143 mdef
- Wyrm's mail -> 110 def 69 mdef

Why ? I don't understand. What is the point to give you a nice gear that allow you to off tank during 47 lvl then to tell you "hey dude, sorry but seems you have too much defense, I'll just lower your def by 30% and your mdef by 50%~". Just.. Why ?

Anstarra · **02-04-2014, 09:52 AM**

(02-04-2014, 05:52 AM)Ilweran Wrote: Mmh, it may be the wrong topic but I'm lv 45 DRG so far and there is something that make me scream on that class. It's not about the skills, it's not about the DPS.. It's about the gear.

Why my lv 38 HQ gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than the AF1 ? WHY lv 46 / 47 gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than AF2 ???

Have a look yourself :
- Scale gear 47 HQ -> 143 def 143 mdef
- Wyrm's mail -> 110 def 69 mdef

Why ? I don't understand. What is the point to give you a nice gear that allow you to off tank during 47 lvl then to tell you "hey dude, sorry but seems you have too much defense, I'll just lower your def by 30% and your mdef by 50%~". Just.. Why ?

Haha, never really noticed this.

I guess the simple answer is, we're not tanks. It's our DPS stats that matter, not Defense scores. A high defense is good when solo leveling, sure, but not so good once you're in endgame ;3 In fact, if it's anything like other games with gear value itemization, points sent toward defense (and vitality, but you can't avoid that) would be considered a waste because they don't increase your DPS. In the end, DRG is a DPS class.

Cato · **02-04-2014, 11:04 AM**

All I'll say is that the class isn't for everyone. I won't say that they're exceptionally difficult to play decently but you certainly need to pay attention and react rather swiftly to avoid being killed. That's something that makes the class very enjoyable in my eyes, but for other players I suspect that it makes for quite a bit of frustration!

There's exceptions but generally in every MMO it's easier to play a ranged combatant as you tend to be more room for error and typically have less mechanics to worry about when fighting a boss. Positioning doesn't tend to be a huge factor either.

I guess I'm just repeating what has already been brought up already, though as someone who adores how the class plays I figured I'd add my two gil to the discussion!

Ilwe'ran · **02-04-2014, 11:24 AM**

(02-04-2014, 09:52 AM)Anstarra Wrote:
(02-04-2014, 05:52 AM)Ilweran Wrote: Mmh, it may be the wrong topic but I'm lv 45 DRG so far and there is something that make me scream on that class. It's not about the skills, it's not about the DPS.. It's about the gear.

Why my lv 38 HQ gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than the AF1 ? WHY lv 46 / 47 gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than AF2 ???

Have a look yourself :
- Scale gear 47 HQ -> 143 def 143 mdef
- Wyrm's mail -> 110 def 69 mdef

Why ? I don't understand. What is the point to give you a nice gear that allow you to off tank during 47 lvl then to tell you "hey dude, sorry but seems you have too much defense, I'll just lower your def by 30% and your mdef by 50%~". Just.. Why ?

Haha, never really noticed this.

I guess the simple answer is, we're not tanks. It's our DPS stats that matter, not Defense scores. A high defense is good when solo leveling, sure, but not so good once you're in endgame ;3 In fact, if it's anything like other games with gear value itemization, points sent toward defense (and vitality, but you can't avoid that) would be considered a waste because they don't increase your DPS. In the end, DRG is a DPS class.

That doesn't explain why they suddenly lower that much your armor. As far as I know, they don't do that for any other class. It's not logical. And you can check those items stats yourself, they are definitly done for DPS (those armors I show are the DRG armor you have up to lv 47).
And if we weren't fitting at all for tanking, why giving Skull Sunder to DRG which is an aggro skill ? Why, on a side, giving you a stuff and a skill that allow you to off tank during 47 lvl then suddenly drastically lower your defense ?

Anstarra · **02-04-2014, 06:34 PM**

(02-04-2014, 11:24 AM)Ilweran Wrote:
(02-04-2014, 09:52 AM)Anstarra Wrote:
(02-04-2014, 05:52 AM)Ilweran Wrote: Mmh, it may be the wrong topic but I'm lv 45 DRG so far and there is something that make me scream on that class. It's not about the skills, it's not about the DPS.. It's about the gear.

Why my lv 38 HQ gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than the AF1 ? WHY lv 46 / 47 gear have better Defense and Magical Defense than AF2 ???

Have a look yourself :
- Scale gear 47 HQ -> 143 def 143 mdef
- Wyrm's mail -> 110 def 69 mdef

Why ? I don't understand. What is the point to give you a nice gear that allow you to off tank during 47 lvl then to tell you "hey dude, sorry but seems you have too much defense, I'll just lower your def by 30% and your mdef by 50%~". Just.. Why ?

Haha, never really noticed this.

I guess the simple answer is, we're not tanks. It's our DPS stats that matter, not Defense scores. A high defense is good when solo leveling, sure, but not so good once you're in endgame ;3 In fact, if it's anything like other games with gear value itemization, points sent toward defense (and vitality, but you can't avoid that) would be considered a waste because they don't increase your DPS. In the end, DRG is a DPS class.

That doesn't explain why they suddenly lower that much your armor. As far as I know, they don't do that for any other class. It's not logical. And you can check those items stats yourself, they are definitly done for DPS (those armors I show are the DRG armor you have up to lv 47).
And if we weren't fitting at all for tanking, why giving Skull Sunder to DRG which is an aggro skill ? Why, on a side, giving you a stuff and a skill that allow you to off tank during 47 lvl then suddenly drastically lower your defense ?

Heh. Skull Sunder isn't a Dragoon skill. It's a MRD cross-class skill. It's meant for Paladins to take, if anyone, since they also get MRD skills as cross, and the cross skills aren't class-specific to other classes. As a Dragoon, you should never take Skull Sunder among your skills, unless you're doing something quirky like an all-Dragoon WP (which I've seen done ;D).

I can't answer for other gear though! The best explanation I have is that the Scale gear fills a weird niche that doesn't exist in end-game: hybrid tank armor. Leveling up, it's the stuff that only Tanks and DRG/LNC can wear, making DRG/LNC more tanky by having it. But there's no such set at end-game, because our role is refined into a DPS-only slot, not a hybrid. Mainly because hybrid is utterly useless and gimp if you're planning on forming a party. No one wants a tank who isn't 100% tank, or a DPS who isn't 100% DPS.

Despite it all, Dragoons, having access to defensive CDs from MRD as well as Skull Sunder, could fake being tanks in very specific instances, especially if over-geared. I've tanked the final stretch, including last boss, of WP. I've tanked Titan HM (though that was more of an accident and relied on my having been top threat and not on any tank skills chosen, I was full DPS) in the last phase for a few minutes until the tank could be safely brought back up. DRGs have this weird versatility, which can be had fun with, even if it's not actually viable for 'normal' use.

Maybe once upon a time S-E imagined Dragoons as being more hybrid than just DPS, which would explain the MRD cross-skills. Either way, I still use Fracture, Bloodbath and Mercy Stroke, in mine. But not Skull Sunder, nor typically even Foresight (my other two are Internal Release and Second Wind, since it's based on attack power). The only time a DRG would theoretically end up tanking anything, even momentarily, would be if someone else screwed up =b

Ilwe'ran · **02-04-2014, 09:43 PM**

(02-03-2014, 03:25 AM)Kieron Lohengrin Wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVYxu6yMYSs

Kieron answered, in a way, to what you said with this video with a DRG tanking Titan HM. He's using Skull Sunder all along to be able to (cross skill or not, you can access to an aggro skill which is interesting to notice).

Also, I have to add that beside those scale gear, you also have the possibility to wear haubergeons (like this one) that have the same balance def/mdef stats as AF and further.

And I did compare the lv 46/47 set's stats to the AF1 (which is suppose to be close, ilvl wise) and this is the result :

[Image: ScaleArtefact_zpsdbeff07e.png~original]

[Image: ScaleArtefact_zpsdbeff07e.png~original]

STR & VIT are capped and I think you can compensate the other stats with the 25 materia slots. You will also notice that the scale stats are all DPS stats, none of them are tank.
That's why I thought that it was ultra weird to be in a situation that allow you to have a really nice gear and some nice DPS stats (if you have HQ items + materia) and suddenly being ultra weak when you try on your AF1.

I'm just trying to understand here what happened inside the dev head when they created scales armors or decided to not create armors with the same kind of stats after the lv 47. I had a look on the official board and I found nothing about that (maybe I didn't looked there properly, it's not that easy to search sometimes ^^ ), I'm really curious about that topic because never in a game I saw this kind of situation.

Even if you think that it could be a weird niche, that could explain how was though DRG role in the first place and maybe be a track to answer to your questions about "how DRG are suppose to be good in" . Maybe DRG were thought as off tank, able to handle some damages, keeping aggro with some cross skill, having some defensive buff (cross or not) and all. Maybe we could have some answers by looking at how were DRG on the first release of Final Fantasy XIV (and maybe even XI).

Also be sure that there is no hate on my messages, I'm a lv 46 DRG with a nice scale gear that don't understand the interest of wearing his AF1 gear that would drastically lower his stats for giving a really few bonus.

LiadansWhisper · **02-04-2014, 11:16 PM**

Prior to 50, DRG gear is shared with PLD and WAR. Â That is why it has so much more defense and magic def. Â Once you hit your AF gear (and it's AF, not AF+1...AF+1 is the Myth gear Smile

Â ), the gear is tailored specifically to your spec and role. Â DPS shouldn't need high amounts of Defense and Magic Def, so those are far lower priority than actual stats that help a DRG do more DPS.

Ildur · **02-05-2014, 01:43 AM**

Actually, Dragoon gear prior to 50 is somewhere between tanking classes and monks (no idea how it gets in endgame because I'm a silly non-endgamer). There are quite a few armors that have the "PLD WAR DRG" restriction, but Paladins and Warriors can always get their own unshared gear that has more protection. I think the only times they absolutely share equipment are at the beginning of the game and at level 27, where the most protective non-dungeon armor is scale armor that can be used by lancers but not pugilists or bards.

Cato · **02-05-2014, 01:58 AM**

On one hand I really like the ability to be able to soak up a bit of damage as a dragoon and potentially save the group a wipe by tanking an out of control add or keeping a boss busy if the real tank is killed. Just yesterday I ran Dzemael Darkhold and managed to tank the boss for the twenty or so seconds needed to finish it off after the actual tank died.

On the other hand, though, I can totally understand where people are coming from when they say they don't really need to be able to tank properly. I'd hate to see a scenario similar to certain classes in MMO's such as WoW where certain classes can do everything to a ridiculous state of efficiency.

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End Game: Are Dragoons Good For Anything?

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