Hydaelyn Role-Players

Let me preface this topic by saying that I love Melee, and I love Dragoons. I am one. I play it well. I out-threat most people I run with (and don't pull hate like a noob when it matters) and am very good at dodging AoE's. I say this not to brag, but to stymie any notions that I suck at playing Dragoon and am thus blaming the class.

In fact, I enjoy playing Dragoon. It's fun, and a challenge to do RIGHT (like almost any class). I strive to be useful, and not to live down to the reputation that most Dragoons have, of being a ball and chain that holds back progression.

And with that we come to the crux. In this game, Melee, and especially Dragoons, suck.

I know all about Melee, and its trials and tribulations. I've been playing MMORPGs since EverQuest, and I've ALWAYS played Melee, almost exclusively. Through EQ, DAoC, AoC, FFXI, EQ2, Warhammer Online, WoW, Rift, SWToR, TERA, a lot of other free MMOs, and of course this game, I've stuck to my guns, enjoying Melee, even though almost always it has found itself gimped in comparison to Ranged or Casters. I'm not some elite master, but I've always pulled my weight at the very least.

Now though, I find myself coming up against some real opposition. FFXIV has it in for Melee, and especially my beloved Dragoons, in a bad way. So I ask this community...


What Are Dragoons Good For?


Has anyone EVER seen a raid call requesting a Dragoon? Or any Melee? I would be shocked. It's always "Looking for one more ranged DPS" or "Looking for BRD/BLM" and so on. And why not? What EXACTLY does a Dragoon offer, that BLM/BRD/SMN can't do better? Or even MNK, though they're almost as cursed just for being Melee?

Here are some of the reasons Melee is so gimp in THIS game:

Survivability. Normally Melee classes in MMOs are tankier than ranged. But Monks are squishy as hell and Dragoons only have moderate armor; this is mitigated entirely by needing to be adjacent to mobs. Many bosses have mechanics that ONLY destroy you if you're Melee, and are either laughably avoidable for Ranged or else not an issue whatsoever. Try doing Garuda Extreme and you'll see what I mean. That's if they'll even let you come; most groups will REFUSE to take more than one Melee, and even then it's not by choice.

Positioning. It's bad enough you need to be in the monster's face. You also need to hit their flank and rear, at strategic times, or lose DPS. While the Bard is facerolling two keys and standing still, you're timing your cooldowns and hurrying to get behind that huge bastard who'll tail-swipe you to death (or piss off the healer) or stand in that Chimera's flank and get cone'd. And sometimes it's bloody hard to hit a flank, on mobile targets while the tank is repositioning, or if the enemy allows only for limited movement. Yes, you get used to it, but again, between this and just hammering out skills while standing still, you can see who is likelier to get their full DPS and who is likelier to be stuck waiting for an AoE to end so they don't get creamed.

Sprint. "Oh, that awesome ability that lets you run fast when you need to," said every caster and NO MELEE EVER. Because, thanks Square-Enix, our resource is TP. And it eats all our TP to use, reducing our DPS to something resembling a small child whipping around one of those pool noodles. Yes we have an ability to regain it, but if you have to use it before its time you WILL run out of TP or need to slow down your rotations before it comes off cooldown, both options which gimp our DPS. Yes, Bards use TP too, but again, because of being ranged, they're less likely to ever need it. Also, anyone who's PVP'd knows exactly how effed you are as Melee, trying to chase down a caster who's Sprinting. And why the heck WOULDN'T they sprint?

I'm sure there's more, but you get the idea.

Now for the issue that renders Dragoons the most singularly unappreciated class in end-game: Utility.

When asked the question of What Does A Dragoon Bring To A Raid, what do you say?

"Mad Deeps!" No, SMN and BRD have at least as good single-target, BLM blows away AoE AND becomes a monster if there's a SCH's Selene fairy to buff their cast speed. Also DRGs do less than MNK, the only other Melee class.

"Self-Heals!" Such little heals WOULD be a unique contribution, but BLMs do it too. And survivability? BLMs have better 'Oh Shit' buttons; our Elusive Jump doesn't even protect us from AoEs while it's running.

"Stuns!" You mean the ones Paladins do much more often and more reliably? And Monks can do too, and probably everyone else?

"Slows!" As if anyone uses this ability and BLMs do it better anyway.

"Mobility!" Ranged don't need it nearly as much, BLMs can zoom around, MNKs can move faster...

"Off-tanking!" If your off-tank is a Dragoon, you've got other problems. This is for amusement, at best, on trash mobs and SOMETIMES rarely on adds that need to be DPS'd down and not tanked by an actual tank.

"Reduce piercing resistance of mob by 10% for Bard!" Yay, we have a minor utility: helping a better DPS class be better. You'll get more return by having a SECOND Bard (LB gauge aside).

"Limit Break!" Monks can do it just fine. Does the DRG one do slightly more? I honestly don't know. But this is an extremely limited advantage. If you're lucky you can use it to parley your way into a group. Maybe.


The fact of the matter is, unless I'm missing something in the mechanics of the various classes (because though I know Dragoons rather well, I don't know ranged except insofar as my friend keeps telling me how superior they are, and why) Dragoons are not a desirable addition to a raid. NO ONE has ever said "Oh yes, a Dragoon!" when one joins the raid, unless they're being sarcastic. Usually it's more like "Uh we don't need more Melee..." or "Ranged would be better" or some equivalent.


As it stands, we suck. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise though. Can anyone give me REAL reasons to want them in your raid? Yes, I know they're cool-looking, and fun to solo, and fun to play, and none of this matters in End Game. I'm talking sheer efficiency here. Bring me your arguments, if anyone HAS any. I want to be able to defend my class from detractors, but all I can say is "I out-dps YOU", and they can just reply, "If you bothered to play a REAL DPS class you'd do even better!". And it makes me sad that they're probably right.

Hmmm....honestly, I have no idea what to say about Dragoons.  I'd say we get better with gear, but then I went and looked you up on the lodestone and you're more geared than I am.  I'm still working on my AF+1 stuff and as for raids, I haven't done anything major like coil.   I dunno, I too had a feeling that we aren't a popular class but I figured if we weren't meant for PVE/Raids like let's say BRD and BLM I thought Squenix would have made us monsters in PVP to counter that. I will admit I  have yet to try it out to see if my hypothesis is true.

(01-04-2014, 09:37 AM)Artorias Wrote: [ -> ]Hmmm....honestly, I have no idea what to say about Dragoons.  I'd say we get better with gear, but then I went and looked you up on the lodestone and you're more geared than I am.  I'm still working on my AF+1 stuff and as for raids, I haven't done anything major like coil.   I dunno, I too had a feeling that we aren't a popular class but I figured if we weren't meant for PVE/Raids like let's say BRD and BLM I thought Squenix would have made us monsters in PVP to counter that. I will admit I  have yet to try it out to see if my hypothesis is true.

We are, sadly, awful in PVP. All Melee is. Sprint makes casters nigh-untouchable, since we have to blow all our TP to even give chase. In my experience, the only time as a DRG that I'm good in PVP, quite good, is when I'm paired with a dedicated PLD or other stunner to create a hunter-killer combo; basically while BLM/healer CC and distract their team, we chase down a soft target and alpha-strike him. I tend to top damage in those cases. But without proper coordination and help, we can do very little on our own. Positioning for HT is even more annoying against players than against mobs, for obvious reasons.

that sucks, I was really hoping there would be some sort of balance to counter this. I guess this means we're just a vanity class?  We look good but that's about it. =/

Well in that case here is hoping that the Dark Knight class will be more promising if it comes out sometime in the future.  Not that it will stop me from playing a Dragoon, I still love my RP with him

Before I say why I think Dragoons are viable, let me say that I agree with everything you've said. Its a tough life for a Melee DPS, but since 2.1 I honestly think its worth it if you can master it.

In my own personal opinion, I think part of the stigma with Dragoon is just its player base. We all have seen the Derpgoons. Flocks of them flooding the queues in AF gear (Not inherently evil) then standing in every sort of mechanic that can and will hurt them.

My main class is Paladin. That's where all my myth tomes have been going and it'll always be my first love. I've been working on getting relics for all my other DPS classes, and my Dragoon was my first DPS relic. (Point is, my opinion comes from a Relic/Full Darklight Dragoon and not any further)

So anyways, I think they're perfectly viable. I won't go into all the encounters saying why they'd be good in each instance, so I'll just use an example from last night. We were tackling Titan HM to get some LS mates their relics. I was there as Black Mage (around i62, not horrible but not great). We couldn't get past the heart. So I said "Screw it" switched to Dragoon, and we got past the heart without needing to LB.

This isn't to brag, I promise. I'm not some el1t3 uber DPSzorz. Its just to show how much more Dragoon was doing. Even though you have to move out of things, a lot of the time you're right there with him and not losing too much DPS. The casters are constantly having to break cast to pull up their skirts and run.

Not only that, but the gaols were being broken much quicker. They've got some nice burst damage that can save some time in a pinch.

Last thing I'll rant about is the LB. A single target LB is invaluable in A LOT of fights. Not only that, but with how the LB builds slower if you have more of the same classes, having a bunch of ranged isn't always the best choice. I wouldn't say this is the only reason to bring a melee along, but it still is an advantage they have.

So, yes. Its going to be hard to master Dragoon. But I think that's part of the fun for me, at least. I love all my ranged DPS friends out there, but I love it when I out survive them as a Dragoon. Its possible. Its viable. They're a good class.

Oh, and Monks don't always have the DPS advantage. In a lot of fights with mechanics, their Greased Lightning drops forcing them to rebuild it up. Their full potential isn't always able to be met.

Sorry for the long post. As one who's constantly making fun of the Dragoon stereotype I thought I'd chime in. If you love it, play the hell out of it. You'll be pulling off more DPS than people expect you to.

The best DRG I know of constantly out parses everyone that we group with consistently. He was a MNK main before, and according to him it's much more difficult to put out the big parse numbers that people crave compared to ranged classes due to all the issues that have been posted here, but that doesn't mean DRG isn't good for anything.

I'm not one myself, but I believe that DRGs not performing animation canceling with certain instant cast abilities and being overall poor at opportunistic positioning for flanking and such is the reason that people perceive the class to be overall not so great. You have to be great at dodging as well or you're going to get nailed by arc moves and die.

Hey Anstarra! You are not alone in your frustrations. I used to play Lancer then Dragoon when it came out, almost exclusively in 1.0 and then as it underwent a million changes I slowly started to lose interest in the job. Which was unfortunate. Anyways,

There are a few rays of light. 
The first and probably most relevant to you is Coil. Yes, melee dps have it rough in there, but you are so very useful. My Coil group brings a DRG every time just for the amount of DMG they can put out on a single target. Having a DRG LB for Caduceus and in T2 for Tier3 LB on ADS just makes the fight go so smoothly. You don't have to have a DRG, certainly, but my group prefers them. In T4 of Coil, we've even gone with 2x DRG just for fun. It worked out great. Knights and Rooks became a non-issue. 

In Coil, I honestly think DRGs win out over MNKs just because of the way Greased Lightning works and the pure amount of dodging that goes on to interrupt attacks. Fortunately for DRGs, you don't have as many positional combos as MNK.

BLM and SMN have cast times. Which leads to many interruptions in dps for dodging. While skilled casters can usually ride right past this without too much difficulty, if unlucky, it can hurt their dps. Especially in T2 where ADS already has a magic resistance buff. 

The issue becomes really, what are people willing to work with. If you get a good steady group, the answer is usually anything. Any DPS can do as well as any other DPS given the chance and gear. Maybe they aren't technically "Best In Slot" but I've still completed pretty much all content with a DRG in the party. I've never felt held back by one at least.

As a person who mains monk (for the most part), I'm going to have to disagree entirely with the idea that melee suck in XIV. Up until patch 2.1 (and even after) I mained a monk in our binding coil static. Turns 1~5. I can safely say without a doubt that 95% of the time, I topped our DPS charts against equally geared and equally skilled DD. Our old setup used to be WHM, SCH, PLD, PLD, BLM, SMN, MNK, BRD. My Monk would easily top DPS on every single fight. Never had issues with dodging anything -- in fact, I felt more comfortable dodging as a melee. As a monk, no less, which suffers heavily from having to dodge due to the potential of a GL3 loss. The job just flows really nicely, and it's one I'm very in sync with. I've played it for months new in endgame, and it's one of those things where eventually you reach a point where you know a job inside and out. Where you can do it's rotation in your sleep flawlessly and optimize your DPS down to a decimal. ...More or less, anyways. Haha.

Suffice it to say, melee DD in this game does not suck. It's incredibly potent if you play them properly. Maybe I'm just lucky and don't have the latency some people say they do, but I never, ever have issues dodging as a melee or a tank for that matter.

That being said! With 2.1's changes to Warriors, I wound up taking over tank duty from one of our tanks as a Warrior. Our new setup turned to WHM, SCH, BLM, BLM, DRG, BRD, WAR, PLD. We did our usual monday turns 1~4 run with this new setup on our first night and didn't wipe once. Might have been the norm for our old group static, as we'd 1-4 in like 50 minutes, but I absolutely expected some roughness with half of us changing jobs. The dragoon? Did amazing numbers, even with his lack of experience in coil on that job (he was a summoner before) and a lack of gear compared to the rest of our DD. I'd like to think that speaks enough for the playability of the job. Sure, he'd practiced some outside of coil, but when it came to executing it in the actual encounters he had absolutely no issues going from a geared ranged DD to a slightly under geared melee DD.

TL;DR - Dragoon and Monk are both very, very good DD. It's just a matter of knowing proper itemization for your job, proper rotation, and executing it flawlessly alongside whatever boss mechanics you're rolling against.

Dragoon is not an easy job to play, but that does not make them any more or less viable than any other job. A lot of the problem does stem from the player base of the Dragoon job itself. Like the DRKs of 11, there are a lot of people out there that only half utilize the tools at their disposal. There are a lot of things that most Dragoon players completely for get to do. I notice this mostly when I am tanking through the daily roulette fun. The most common things would be.
1. Jumps are there for a reason, use them. When ever they are up, whenever power surge is up. Granted the jumps were a bit broken in 2.0 and are much better in 2.1, but I feel like Power Surge and the Jumps are wicked under utilized. Which is sad because I have seen Jump damage spike for crazy amounts, and none of the Jumps cost TP. They also have some very nice side benefits, which leads us too...

2. Battlefield Mobility. Yes, BRD and other Ranged DPS can do their rotations from a longer distance, but DRG has a lot of tools that let them get where they need to be very very quickly. Elusive Jump is a great "oh crap button" and with practice allows you to stay in a void zone for just a bit longer to finish off that last link in your combo. Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dive take you to your target, and have a crap ton of range. You can also move while executing a Doomspike or Ring or Talons. With practice this leads to DRGs bouncing around battlefields like Gummy Bears, which is a valuable thing in fights that require good positioning. This is also a really good tool for setting up your combos.

3. There are more combos to your rotation than the Full Thrust Combo, use them and increase your damage out put. I see many many DRG simply sticking to the Full Thurst combo, sometimes without slapping down Heavy Thrust. They should utilize everything. Impulse Drive > Chaos Thrust, Phlebotimize, Everything. The Full Thrust combo reaches its maximum potential only when Disembowel, Heavy Thrust, and Blood for Blood are stacked up. Throw up Life Surge and giggle with glee when Full Thrust hits with those ducks in a row, it is nuts.

4. Last strange thing I see people do with DRG is gear it like MNK. This is a mistake. They are two different jobs and they play very very differently. They reach their full potential by focusing on very different gear builds. DRGs get a little more out of Skill Speed than MNK does, and their skills hit harder. You want DRGs to go faster than they you would normally think they should. The exact ratio is a subject for debate, but the main point stands. Don't gear build a job just like another job. You are not playing to the job's strengths that way.

I am not telling anyone here anything they did not already know, just pointing out my own observations of others playing DRG when I step outside the box into another role. There will always all be a lot of tunnel vision from other players as far as "what set up is best in life." The answer is there is no set up that is "best." All things are viable, everything is permitted. Everyone just needs to be on their game and know their job and their role, and how to maximize their potential.

Have fun out there guys. ^ ^

Thanks for the replies thus far, guys! It's interesting. I particularly like the note about having to break casts to dodge AoEs, that's a viable argument. The personal 'good experiences with a Dragoon' are satisfying, but not REALLY what I'm looking for, because everyone has had good experiences with all classes at various points in their play. Someone trying to prop up Bards, for instance, would quote times that a Bard was quintessential, for instance because of manasong or somesuch.

People seem to be under the impression I'm despairing over Dragoon DPS, which is not true. As I said in my opening posts, I out-threat, which typically means out-dps, almost everyone. I USE all Dragoon tools, trust me. Even in 2.0 when they sucked, I snuck in Jumps when they could be viable. Now, I use them all the time. I even throw in between-GCD-stuns because they DO damage, against enemies for whom stunning isn't a key mechanic (not wanting to screw over interrupts).

But doing damage is only one part of raid utility. ANY dps class can do excellent damage, if taken to the limit by a player who is GOOD at it. What I'm looking for mostly is UTILITY, which Dragoons don't have. Even Monks have Mantra, for example, and Silence AS WELL as Stun, AND they can remove buffs. BLMs have CC and mad AoE, BRDs have songs, etc.

Do Dragoons JUST offer damage? Seems so. Do we offer enough MORE to compensate our lack of utility? Not really! The proof is in the pudding. No one asks for Dragoons on raids, unless they have had very specific good fortune with them.

Admittedly, I've never done Coil! Maybe they're uniquely suited for some fights? I'd love to hear about it. Limit Break is neat and all, but is that it?

(01-04-2014, 12:40 PM)Garryson Wrote: [ -> ]In my own personal opinion, I think part of the stigma with Dragoon is just its player base. We all have seen the Derpgoons. Flocks of them flooding the queues in AF gear (Not inherently evil) then standing in every sort of mechanic that can and will hurt them.

It's a good deal this, to begin with. DRG is my main and when I started playing at endgame, people were amazed I was using Fracture, Phlebotomize, and Disembowel. I was so dumbfounded that that wasn't a regular thing, but apparently most DRGs don't even bother. And sure enough, I was matching or even beating dragoons who were better geared than I was, simply because I did the full rotation. I even met someone who didn't know that Life Surge meant a guaranteed crit on his next move. A lot of DRG players apparently never research their class.

I also was shocked when I started to constantly receive the comment, "Wow, you eat surprisingly little shit for a dragoon"...meaning I was good at actually dodging things. Even in fights that go bad, I'm usually the last one standing...and that is definitely not the norm. The stereotype is that the DRG dies first, and in most cases it's true. A lot of puggers I've watched just don't dodge, or fail to dodge in time.

So needless to say, we really, really get a bad rap, and you can only really dispel it with performance. That said...

Quote:The best DRG I know of constantly out parses everyone that we group with consistently. He was a MNK main before, and according to him it's much more difficult to put out the big parse numbers that people crave compared to ranged classes due to all the issues that have been posted here, but that doesn't mean DRG isn't good for anything.

There's also this. Yes, MNK out damages us, but it's very difficult to play correctly, and they're even MORE positioning-dependent than we are. We need to flank to keep Heavy Thrust up, yes, but that's good in a way because flanks are generally safer. Impulse Drive can literally be done on the run, so we only need to be behind the mob for a few seconds to get it off, and in some fights (like Caudecus and Hydra), purposefully triggering tail swipes will temporarily ease damage off the tank. We're ideal to pull these kinds of moves off, because we can do it with little to no interruption to our DPS. If something goes wrong, we can usuallly survive the hit. More work for the healers, maybe, but living DPS is better than dead DPS.

We're also much more bursty than monks. Monks will never pull off the big, 900-point Life Surge-fueled Full Thrust crits that we will, or really any of the crits that we do. They'll probably beat us in a really long, drawn-out fight, but for trash clearing and DPS races, dragoons really shine. I've also been told (and though I do it I've been unable to confirm it) that our limit break does slightly more damage, because it takes the Disembowel debuff into account.

And while, yes, we do buff our rival DPSers, a DRG-BRD combo will MELT things like you wouldn't believe. The bards in my FC love me because we make an incredible team, and that synergy is more valuable than you'd think. Monks, meanwhile, can only buff themselves.

Yes, paladins stun better than we do, but technically we have two interrupts. When Leg Sweep is on cooldown, there's still Spineshatter Dive for emergencies (though it doesn't work on all bosses). Similarly, Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dive give us two closers, at longer range, even, than the monk's Shoulder Tackle. We can usually close gaps faster than they can, meaning less running around and more dps for us.

So on a lot of technical and utility levels, I'd argue a DRG is better than a MNK. As always, of course, the player makes the biggest difference, and most people in pickup/farming/speed run groups won't ever be able to get past the, "Hurr durr, but da forums sed dat monks do moar damage" part, which yes, is technically true.

This game is cold and cruel to melee though, and that's the real issue long-term. I really hope they fix it in the future, because it's just not fair. You know you've done something wrong when a class -- any class -- is rejected from groups. They helped warriors, so hopefully they'll help us.

(01-04-2014, 07:09 PM)Striding Oak Wrote: [ -> ]I've also been told (and though I do it I've been unable to confirm it) that our limit break does slightly more damage, because it takes the Disembowel debuff into account.

Limit breaks actually get no benefit from any buffs or debuffs, and the damage is calculated from the combined item level of the weapons of your entire party. So, a party with full Allag weapons will have a limit break that deals more damage than a party with full zenith, for example.

There's also a damage cap on limit breaks, though there's only one place this ever comes into question. The cap for Final Heaven is 30,000 damage, and it can only be reached during Twintania on Asclepius with Hygeia stacks.

Generally, it's better for a Dragoon to use a limit break though, as a Monk risks losing GL3 unless they time it right after a form rotation. Either way, it will do the same damage no matter which DD uses it, since it's a party-based formula and not player-based.

(01-04-2014, 10:07 AM)Anstarra Wrote: [ -> ]

(01-04-2014, 09:37 AM)Artorias Wrote: [ -> ]Hmmm....honestly, I have no idea what to say about Dragoons.  I'd say we get better with gear, but then I went and looked you up on the lodestone and you're more geared than I am.  I'm still working on my AF+1 stuff and as for raids, I haven't done anything major like coil.   I dunno, I too had a feeling that we aren't a popular class but I figured if we weren't meant for PVE/Raids like let's say BRD and BLM I thought Squenix would have made us monsters in PVP to counter that. I will admit I  have yet to try it out to see if my hypothesis is true.

We are, sadly, awful in PVP. All Melee is. Sprint makes casters nigh-untouchable, since we have to blow all our TP to even give chase. In my experience, the only time as a DRG that I'm good in PVP, quite good, is when I'm paired with a dedicated PLD or other stunner to create a hunter-killer combo; basically while BLM/healer CC and distract their team, we chase down a soft target and alpha-strike him. I tend to top damage in those cases. But without proper coordination and help, we can do very little on our own. Positioning for HT is even more annoying against players than against mobs, for obvious reasons.

I'm 99% sure there's an ability you get a - a PvP ability, actually - that removes Sprint from a target and costs little to no TP.

(01-04-2014, 06:21 PM)Anstarra Wrote: [ -> ]Admittedly, I've never done Coil! Maybe they're uniquely suited for some fights? I'd love to hear about it. Limit Break is neat and all, but is that it?

DRG/MNK really shine in Coil T4. Towards the end of the fight (it's only 6~ minutes long) there are a lot of mobs that need to be killed very quickly, and there are too many for your two tanks to handle. One is preoccupied with 1-2 Dreadnaughts that pull out their equivalent of Titan's Mountain Buster every 8 seconds. Then there's the off-tank kiting/killing a plethora of adds that hit ungodly hard as well. 

One of the viable strategies to deal with this is have the DRG quickly LB the rook and then tank one of the Knights. DRG have enough dmg, hp, and defense to handle the Knight for a short period of time. Hopefully enough to get the Knight down. Naturally a MNK can do this strategy just as well. 

Also in T4, certain enemies are immune to magic damage. So powerful melee dps are kind of needed. Sure, you can do with BRDs as well, but having a melee LB in Coil is almost a must have for a lot of fights.