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Aldeus · **08-09-2013, 09:31 PM**

(08-09-2013, 09:24 PM)Aysun Wrote: [quote pid=43225 dateline=1376097020]
"Strike not while the iron is hot, but make the iron hot by striking."

William Yeats.

Who are you striking here again? This could have stayed in the other discussion thread if you wanted to rally support for the poll, honestly. SE doesn't visit our forums (and if they do they probably aren't going searching for stuff like this).
[/quote]

People are arguing that we should wait to see what happens.Â I'm arguing that we be proactive in this.Â I made the same post on the SE forums, and the discussion is currently proceeding there as well.

AFriendOfAFriend · **08-09-2013, 09:34 PM**

This forum is quite clearly labeled "FFXIV Discussion." This is a topic that pertains to FFXIV, and Aldeus wanted to discuss it. I'm not quite understanding the passive-aggressive attacks directed his way. There's nothing wrong with wanting to draw attention to an issue even before it becomes an issue. Stephen Hawiking's been yelling at us for years to start interstellar colonization, but that's not going to be a problem for a good few centuries. Anybody want to tell him to sit down and shut up?

For what it's worth I'll be signing the petition. It's not fair to ostracize a segment of your fanbase based on cultural restrictions. If they wanted to abide by Japanese societal standards then they shouldn't have released it outside of Japan.

Aldeus · **08-09-2013, 09:35 PM**

(08-09-2013, 09:23 PM)Chance Vinders Wrote: Anyway I'm fairly sure most of you would enjoy this game with or without the whole marriage thing being implemented in the first place. I love you all and ask that you do not tear open a rift in our precious community as that is what will happen if this heats up.

I do not, have not, and will never, care about creating a divide between myself and someone who cannot accept a logical andÂ sensibly laid out argument in favor of a position they disagree with without getting angry, because that rift already exists.

(08-09-2013, 09:34 PM)AFriendOfAFriend Wrote: This forum is quite clearly labeled "FFXIV Discussion." This is a topic that pertains to FFXIV, and Aldeus wanted to discuss it. I'm not quite understanding the passive-aggressive attacks directed his way. There's nothing wrong with wanting to draw attention to an issue even before it becomes an issue. Stephen Hawiking's been yelling at us for years to start interstellar colonization, but that's not going to be a problem for a good few centuries. Anybody want to tell him to sit down and shut up?

For what it's worth I'll be signing the petition. It's not fair to ostracize a segment of your fanbase based on cultural restrictions. If they wanted to abide by Japanese societal standards then they shouldn't have released it outside of Japan.

I don't really think telling Stephen Hawking to sit down and shut up is an appropriate parallel.Â Your hilariously bad example aside, thank you very much for an otherwise stellar point.

Felix Sideris · **08-09-2013, 09:38 PM**

(08-09-2013, 09:31 PM)Aldeus Wrote: People are arguing that we should wait to see what happens.Â I'm arguing that we be proactive in this.Â I made the same post on the SE forums, and the discussion is currently proceeding there as well.

Then I think we should leave the discussion go there where it can have some kind of effect on Square's decision than be here. I, personally, along with a few others, do not think Hydaelyn is the appropriate place for a debate/discussion like this that we cannot directly effect or influence, or can we argue in one direction or the other because we lack sufficient knowledge as to how the marriage system even works to begin with.

It has been monthsÂ since we have received word from square, as far as my knowledge goes, as to what the marriage system will specifically do/be about.

So talking about this here is pointless, and in my opinion jumping into it at all is.

But that is me personally, I like tactical advances in terms of debate. I don't plan on placing an argument on it in any direction until I specifically know what the marriage system is like in ARR and I think a few others are in the same position.

Lying Psychic · **08-09-2013, 09:41 PM**

Great post. Well written and thought out. I hope SE decides to add it in the near future.

It isn't a feature that would break the game, or really ... effect anyone who doesn't want to use it. I doubt any negative press it would generate would be all that damaging.

LandStander · **08-09-2013, 09:46 PM**

(08-09-2013, 09:22 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: Same sex marriage is a hot topic globally and one that is incredibly controversial. We may be very progressive here in the United States, but even here people are incredibly intolerant and bigoted. As already mentioned above same sex marriage is out right illegal in any part of Japan, and for a country that still uses the same laws they had back when Tokyo was called Edo regarding nudity, I don't see this changing anytime soon.

Speaking as someone who has dual citizenship in two very different countries (France and the US) I can say that even some countries that are considered to be fairly modern and you would expect would be accepting of same sex marriage are not. France recently (relatively) passed a law for same sex marriage, and because of that there were riots and a lot of the population demanding this be changed, far more than actually voted FOR the change. Many people felt the decision was made because the politicians were being overly influenced by foreign governments or other organizations and felt they had no choice but to pass it, however the majority of people in France are against same sex marriage. And given Paris is the city of love and what not, you'd think they'd be even more progressive than the US.

Bioware and Trion are two companies that are located here in the US (I think Trion is in the US anyways, correct me if I'm wrong) so they don't have to worry about cultural and political pressures since here it's more or less okay to be LGBT, for a company that is located in a country where it is illegal they'll feel a great deal more pressure for it. With all that being said, maybe it will happen, though for now I hate to say it, I wouldn't hold my breath.

It's interesting that you bring up the Edo period in Japan. Homosexuality (among men at least as there are no records about women) was very widely accepted. It was actually very similar to the Greek and Roman philosophy at the time. Two men, usually a young student and his master, would actually have a sexual relationship and pledge to never cheat on each other with other men, but it was okay for both of them to go out and marry a woman.

Ildur · **08-09-2013, 09:51 PM**

(08-09-2013, 09:46 PM)LandStander Wrote: It's interesting that you bring up the Edo period in Japan. Homosexuality (among men at least as there are no records about women) was very widely accepted. It was actually very similar to the Greek and Roman philosophy at the time. Two men, usually a young student and his master, would actually have a sexual relationship and pledge to never cheat on each other with other men, but it was okay for both of them to go out and marry a woman.

I don't want to get into a historical discussion, but homosexuality in ancient Greece and Rome wasn't as wide as many people seem to think. I blame wikipedia for the misinformation, though the fact that the greek word for 'lover' and 'friend' were the same probably complicates the interpretations.

I have no idea of how widely accepted it was on Japan, though.

LandStander · **08-09-2013, 09:56 PM**

(08-09-2013, 09:51 PM)Ildur Wrote: I don't want to get into a historical discussion, but homosexuality in ancient Greece and Rome wasn't as wide as many people seem to think. I blame wikipedia for the misinformation, though the fact that the greek word for 'lover' and 'friend' were the same probably complicates the interpretations.

I have no idea of how widely accepted it was on Japan, though.

Really? Even in Platos, "The Symposium", he writes about homosexuality. They go on to describe it as more natural and more manly than actually being with a woman. I am paraphrasing here, but he wrote something like "what is more masculine then wanting to be with someone who is masculine as well". I probably butchered the hell out of it, but its pretty much the same thing. Though I know they were talking a lot about boy/old man relationship. Even the men in the play are all attracted to Socrates and Alcibiades is literally head over heels for him and spends the entire time trying to get in his pants.

S'demyx Tia · **08-09-2013, 10:01 PM**

Quite honestly? I doubt that homosexual marriage will be a part of ARR anytime soon, if at all.

Does it bother me? Not really.Â

There's always the arguments, "It's only a game, get over it". But if it were the other way around, would you be able to? If certain races were barred from marriage (be they hetero or homo), would it be getting the same easy-going responses? Doubtful.

Anyhow, unless there are certain bonuses you get from marriage, I say to Hells with it. We can create our own ceremonies and have a blast doing so.

Magellan · **08-09-2013, 10:05 PM**

(08-09-2013, 10:01 PM)S Wrote: Quite honestly? I doubt that homosexual marriage will be a part of ARR anytime soon, if at all.

Does it bother me? Not really.Â

There's always the arguments, "It's only a game, get over it". But if it were the other way around, would you be able to? If certain races were barred from marriage (be they hetero or homo), would it be getting the same easy-going responses? Doubtful.

Anyhow, unless there are certain bonuses you get from marriage, I say to Hells with it. We can create our own ceremonies and have a blast doing so.

Well said! People get so caught up in 'it's not a big deal' when... it is. For people who are LGBT, its kind of invalidating their gaming experience. What if Miqo's were restricted from marriage? What if only people who paid $5 extra per month could get married? What if only fair-skinned people could get married, or only Legacy players?

There would be a lot of flack about above scenarios, so how is this any different? People have the right to express themselves, their sexuality, and to ask SE to deliver a better, equal marriage system.

Ildur · **08-09-2013, 10:13 PM**

(08-09-2013, 09:56 PM)LandStander Wrote: snip

I wouldn't use Plato as a way to measure common ancient greek thought because, in "The Republic", he writes about how men and women in the Republic would have the same rights, study and train together as equals. And this is something that was said by a man living in a society were women were basically regarded as property. As we all know, that din't really change that much in ancient Greece after Plato. He was way ahead of his time in much of his thought.

In any case, the bit you mention talks about 'love between men' which, once you consider the concept ancient greek had about love (as I mentioned, the word for 'lover' and 'friend' are the same because, for the greek, a friend is someone who loves you), is more akin to our modern concept of friendship.
I'd have to get the book and read it again to offer a more concise interpretation, but that's what I remember from back then. And I'm also lazy and don't like to read, so I won't hold my horses. Tongue

Reppu · **08-09-2013, 10:13 PM**

Just remember, to everyone adamantly 'striking' for this? There's a line between making your case known, and then there's being insensitive to all parties involved by being overbearing and unreasonable.

When you cross the line, you poison what you're fighting for, and what you're fighting for is no longer the pure ideal you were fighting for. Of course, no one has gone to this obvious extreme, yet. And hopefully never will.

But for those threatening or will quit because Square Enix is not catering to your ideal? Is the kind of immature browbeating that poisons your argument. Show your support by playing, and put some confidence that the FFXIV developers will deliver what you're asking for when they feel they can.

Most of the MMO examples given so far? Did not start with homosexual marriage. Be reasonable, look at what you're comparing, and see that everything takes time, especially with delicate situations like this.

As for me? I'm all for it, but I also know it won't ruin my roleplaying experience if it doesn't happen immediately, or ever. But this is just me. I don't tend to always roleplay my matching sexuality.

And in the end, love transcends a title. If my female Miqo'te finds a female _____, I'll roleplay a wedding with out the 'official' consent. But, again, that's just me. Me putting a little more faith in FFXIV to deliver. And even if they don't?

I still got everything else.

LandStander · **08-09-2013, 10:18 PM**

(08-09-2013, 10:13 PM)Ildur Wrote:
(08-09-2013, 09:56 PM)LandStander Wrote: snip
I wouldn't use Plato as a way to measure common ancient greek thought because, in "The Republic", he writes about how men and women in the Republic would have the same rights, study and train together as equals. And this is something that was said by a man living in a society were women were basically regarded as property. As we all know, that din't really change that much in ancient Greece after Plato. He was way ahead of his time in much of his thought.

In any case, the bit you mention talks about 'love between men' which, once you consider the concept ancient greek had about love (as I mentioned, the word for 'lover' and 'friend' are the same because, for the greek, a friend is someone who loves you), is more akin to our modern concept of friendship.
I'd have to get the book and read it again to offer a more concise interpretation, but that's what I remember from back then. And I'm also lazy and don't like to read, so I won't hold my horses.

Lol. My interest is definitely peeked. I will have to research this topic more. It will help me get in study training in preparation for when school starts back up...on release day *shakes fist at SE for choosing a horrible release date*.

Raccoon · **08-09-2013, 10:21 PM**

Not to derail the conversation, though it is on topic, but I wonder if one were to get married and then change their gender through that Phial thingy. I really doubt the marriage would be voided. It's a thought anyway.

Aldeus · **08-09-2013, 10:26 PM**

(08-09-2013, 10:13 PM)Reppu Wrote: Just remember, to everyone adamantly 'striking' for this? There's a line between making your case known, and then there's being insensitive to all parties involved by being overbearing and unreasonable.

When you cross the line, you poison what you're fighting for, and what you're fighting for is no longer the pure ideal you were fighting for. Of course, no one has gone to this obvious extreme, yet. And hopefully never will.

But for those threatening or will quit because Square Enix is not catering to your ideal? Is the kind of immature browbeating that poisons your argument. Show your support by playing, and put some confidence that the FFXIV developers will deliver what you're asking for when they feel they can.

Most of the MMO examples given so far? Did not start with homosexual marriage. Be reasonable, look at what you're comparing, and see that everything takes time, especially with delicate situations like this.

As for me? I'm all for it, but I also know it won't ruin my roleplaying experience if it doesn't happen immediately, or ever. But this is just me. I don't tend to always roleplay my matching sexuality.

And in the end, love transcends a title. If my female Miqo'te finds a female _____, I'll roleplay a wedding with out the 'official' consent. But, again, that's just me. Me putting a little more faith in FFXIV to deliver. And even if they don't?

I still got everything else.

Who has threatened to quit so far?

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Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea

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