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allgivenover · **04-14-2015, 01:42 PM**

I didn't catch it at first myself either, but yes the Dragoons assuredly are breaking the laws of physics and rocketing both from the ground and after changing direction in the air, then impacting into giant dragons many times their own mass without being killed by the force immediately.

There's no reasonable explanation for it other than aether allows people to break the laws of physics whether it's through the armor itself or the ability of the Dragoons, it's definitely what's happening.

Animu physics are canon.

Melkire · **04-14-2015, 01:51 PM**

(04-14-2015, 01:41 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: Ok, so Â the Dragoon in the images I linked is found at 4:28 to 4:29 moment, at 4:30 we have an angle change to the Big bad Dragon getting smashed by jump. I think that's the same Dragoon, not a different one and he becomes dragon food.Â

Unless you are talking about the one that leaps at 4:26 being different from the 4:28 one. Which I can understand.

Just want to clear up which one you are referring to. So many faceless soldiers, hard to keep track. I'm not even joking.

Yes, Warren, I'm talking about at the peak of the jump more so than say on the way up or down...that'd just be flying.

The cut from Dragoon 4:28 to Dragoon 4:30 implies that it's the same guy. I didn't catch the view of him actually on the dragon's back and assumed it was a different one jumping towards the camera from beyond the dragon.

As I mentioned in the edit to my last post, the only fantastical thing about Dragoon 4:28 is the sudden halt in forward momentum. External application of aether as a force acting on the body might explain that, but I'm not going to assume that's a thing until we get actual lore/text on it.

allgivenover · **04-14-2015, 01:59 PM**

(04-14-2015, 01:51 PM)Melkire Wrote: the only fantastical thing about Dragoon 4:28 is the sudden halt in forward momentum.

The ONLY fantastical thing? They're shown going from 0 to 60 from a standing position without a crouch into the air, crashing into something many times their own size without the impact killing them outright, balancing on one foot on a spire that could not possibly have been climbed up or even landed on without impaling yourself, halting their super-fast momentum and twisting into a fall (the twist they also halt into a perfect downward stab), and flipping through the air like it was walking and you think there's ONE fantastical thing about them?

EVERYTHING about what they're doing is fantastical!

EDIT: Oh, you mean fantastical in that exact moment, my mistake.

Melkire · **04-14-2015, 02:01 PM**

(04-14-2015, 01:59 PM)allgivenover Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 01:51 PM)Melkire Wrote: the only fantastical thing about Dragoon 4:28 is the sudden halt in forward momentum.

The ONLY fantastical thing? They're shown going from 0 to 60 from a standing position without a crouch into the air, crashing into something many times their own size without the impact killing them outright, balancing on one foot on a spire that could not possibly have been climbed up or even landed on without impaling yourself, halting their super-fast momentum and twisting into a fall (the twist they also halt into a perfect downward stab), and flipping through the air like it was walking and you think there's ONE fantastical thing about them?

EVERYTHING about what they're doing is fantastical!

EDIT: Oh, you mean fantastical in that exact moment, my mistake.

Yeah, in that exact moment. I should've said "the only NEW fantastical thing," given that we've known about Jump and their aerial combat skills via lore and gameplay for a while now.

Khadan · **04-14-2015, 02:06 PM**

(04-14-2015, 01:29 PM)YMelkire Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 01:25 PM)Kayllen Wrote: What we do see in the cinematic, at the point of the links provided by Zelmanov, is a person shooting into the air, literally arresting or transferring all the momentum of that jump and altering their direction. He wasn't at the peak of his 'arc', he shot up, practically stopped with some acrobatic stuff, and shot down like a lightning bolt. Of course when he leaps off the dragon again he's caught in its mouth. Dragoons may be elite and specialized but the job is still dangerous otherwise there'd be a thousand dragoons all over and no dragons.

The drop in those pics is barely a meter. Maybe two at most. The camera then cuts to a different dragoon altogether. It's a different dragoon that's getting caught in the mouth.

The first dragoon is not "shooting down like a lightning bolt." Yes, there's a sudden change in momentum (speed, velocity, acceleration, jerk, the interesting thing we're seeing here is jerk).

EDIT: Or maybe I'm wrong.

EDIT 2: After multiple viewings, all I can say is that the only odd thing is how the sudden forward momentum is completely halted. It's a little jarring. The downward motion in and of itself is not that startling, given the supposed weight of drachen mail combined with gravity and a clear intent to drop. Neither is the leap off the dragon's back, assuming that it's the same dragoon.

I refer yet again to slope-soaring gliders turning over into a nosedive. I'm just not sure how dragoons manage it (that it can be done without aether is plausible).

I was about to grind my face into my desk lol. I've been told to "rewatch the video!!111!!oneone so many times now. I've gone through the bloody thing frame by frame and I think I may be at that breaking point of frustration where I start cutting frames and drawing diagrams lol.

ANYWAY, if we're on to 'how are these things possible' then we're at the same place everyone who is done trying to prove/disprove the validity of is at: "Okay it's a thing but how is it a thing?". This is a good place to be and the conversation on this topic is probably due for a fresh thread with a little less, albeit thankfully dwindling, vitriol.

Warren Castille · **04-14-2015, 02:14 PM**

We've established Jump is possible thanks to CG. The trickier part (for me) is figuring out not how that becomes possible but when that becomes possible. I mean, I recently watched a highlander kick a pillar into pieces and fight a guy using only one hand. I'm not sure that gives highlanders everywhere cart blanche to start making doors in walls.

It's not possible to establish, either. Roleplayers will find what they feel works for them and run with it. The challenge with THAT is that things snarl pretty wildly when the group thinking hyper-deadly aerial combat is the norm meets the group that feels that's reserved for the truly elite.

Honestly, I look for any excuse to post this.

[Image: i-QHvrLCn-1050x10000.jpg]

Replace "throw into the sun" with "murder a soft target with my rocket jump." Ascian? Sniped. Traitors? Sniped. Any mortal challenge whatsoever? Sniped. After all, those spears are used to kill dragons! What chance does anything smaller have?

Verad · **04-14-2015, 02:16 PM**

(04-14-2015, 02:14 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: We've established Jump is possible thanks to CG. The trickier part (for me) is figuring out not how that becomes possible but when that becomes possible. I mean, I recently watched a highlander kick a pillar into pieces and fight a guy using only one hand. I'm not sure that gives highlanders everywhere cart blanche to start making doors in walls.

It's not possible to establish, either. Roleplayers will find what they feel works for them and run with it. The challenge with THAT is that things snarl pretty wildly when the group thinking hyper-deadly aerial combat is the norm meets the group that feels that's reserved for the truly elite.

Honestly, I look for any excuse to post this.

It's not a very good comic.

Warren Castille · **04-14-2015, 02:23 PM**

(04-14-2015, 02:16 PM)Verad Wrote: It's not a very good comic.

Gegenji · **04-14-2015, 02:26 PM**

(04-14-2015, 02:23 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 02:16 PM)Verad Wrote: It's not a very good comic.

I didn't know Dragoons were weak to kryptonite. Let's hope the Dravarians don't find out.

Khadan · **04-14-2015, 02:27 PM**

(04-14-2015, 01:42 PM)allgivenover Wrote: I didn't catch it at first myself either, but yes the Dragoons assuredly are breaking the laws of physics and rocketing both from the ground and after changing direction in the air, then impacting into giant dragons many times their own mass without being killed by the force immediately.

There's no reasonable explanation for it other than aether allows people to break the laws of physics whether it's through the armor itself or the ability of the Dragoons, it's definitely what's happening.

Animu physics are canon.

https://youtu.be/c19KfKdv8HI?t=1m35s

Physics being bent and broken is nothing new in FF =P

Khadan · **04-14-2015, 02:41 PM**

(04-14-2015, 02:14 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: We've established Jump is possible thanks to CG. The trickier part (for me) is figuring out not how that becomes possible but when that becomes possible. I mean, I recently watched a highlander kick a pillar into pieces and fight a guy using only one hand. I'm not sure that gives highlanders everywhere cart blanche to start making doors in walls.

It's not possible to establish, either. Roleplayers will find what they feel works for them and run with it. The challenge with THAT is that things snarl pretty wildly when the group thinking hyper-deadly aerial combat is the norm meets the group that feels that's reserved for the truly elite.

Honestly, I look for any excuse to post this.

Replace "throw into the sun" with "murder a soft target with my rocket jump." Ascian? Sniped. Traitors? Sniped. Any mortal challenge whatsoever? Sniped. After all, those spears are used to kill dragons! What chance does anything smaller have?

Honestly, and I mean for this to come off as neutrally as possible and as someone who truly values things like continuity, solid explanations, and above all 'rules' and high standards in my RP, but I think you're fixating on a very, very, small portion of roleplayers. A subset that you, yourself, by your own admission wouldn't be playing with, anyway. I get it, we're in the same boat, even, as I'm likely not going too interested in the legions of Miqo'te Azure Dragoons who've been in Ishgard this whole time but worship a different god and are also a Nunh and don't help populate nor govern their tribe(s) that we'll likely see, soon.

Stop fixating on a .25% figure and look at the grander scheme of things. Ishgard is getting a much-needed expansion (here's hoping for Ala Mhigo next!), Ishgard's most fabled warriors are getting a bit of spotlight for doing the actual thing they are meant to be doing. They aren't invincible, they aren't godlike, and they certainly aren't a one-shot solution to every problem. Honestly if we're going by in game lore and MSQ's etc, the Monks have by far the greatest amount of Dragonball Syndrome in the game.Â

Will some (a very small percentage) take the cinematic and apply it to their superman complex? Yeah of course they will. But those are the people who are ALREADY doing it and have done it with other things. They don't matter. You stated you want nothing to do with those people nor they with you. That's fair. So stop stressing over it and trying to convince people that it's a problem when it isn't. You just do you and let others sort themselves. People like you and I have bigger fish to fry, anyway =)

Domri Blackblade · **04-14-2015, 02:48 PM**

What if it's just some form of extremely advanced aetherial manipulation, this jump? Either way, it's something that would be available to the 1% in my mind anyway. Maybe that's why I am so lax on the hows.

When in doubt, its magic to Domri. LOL

Khadan · **04-14-2015, 03:12 PM**

(04-14-2015, 02:48 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote: What if it's just some form of extremely advanced aetherial manipulation, this jump? Either way, it's something that would be available to the 1% in my mind anyway. Maybe that's why I am so lax on the hows.

When in doubt, its magic to Domri. LOL

Well that depends on who the 1% are, too. Do you mean 1% of Ishgardians? Yeah that's a fair number, likely. Probably a lot less, really, as we don't see armies of Dragoons but small 'squads' and individuals. As an example, the amount of soldiers who fought in the American Revolutionary War never amounted to more than 3% of the colonists at any given time.Â

Ishgard is a warrior nation with a warrior goddess that has been at war for over a thousand years (and still managed to help boot the Ala Mhigans out of the Shroud). That's a bit of an aside, I suppose.

REGARDLESS, -if- the standing military of Ishgard's force of Dragoons makes up 1% of its forces, which may be accurate, I'm not really sure on the numbers tbh, other than that they are rare and highly specialized, based on what we see and know already, 100% of Dragoons still have jumps and the ability to fight in an aerial fashion. So you aren't wrong but I don't think you're wholly right, either.Â

I will say that the one ability I concede as being 'off limits' as per a discussion with Berrod the other day, would be Dragonfire Dive. That was something that only the Azure Dragoon could do, apparently. Still, Dragoons are meant to be powerful, they have to fight dragons in the air, after all. But just like I wouldn't want to tangle with a Dragoon when they have the aerial advantage, I wouldn't want to go toe-to-toe with a monk armed only with my fists, either.

Domri Blackblade · **04-14-2015, 03:20 PM**

(04-14-2015, 03:12 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 02:48 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote: What if it's just some form of extremely advanced aetherial manipulation, this jump? Either way, it's something that would be available to the 1% in my mind anyway. Maybe that's why I am so lax on the hows.

When in doubt, its magic to Domri. LOL

Well that depends on who the 1% are, too. Do you mean 1% of Ishgardians? Yeah that's a fair number, likely. Probably a lot less, really, as we don't see armies of Dragoons but small 'squads' and individuals. As an example, the amount of soldiers who fought in the American Revolutionary War never amounted to more than 3% of the colonists at any given time.Â

Ishgard is a warrior nation with a warrior goddess that has been at war for over a thousand years (and still managed to help boot the Ala Mhigans out of the Shroud). That's a bit of an aside, I suppose.

REGARDLESS, -if- the standing military of Ishgard's force of Dragoons makes up 1% of its forces, which may be accurate, I'm not really sure on the numbers tbh, other than that they are rare and highly specialized, based on what we see and know already, 100% of Dragoons still have jumps and the ability to fight in an aerial fashion. So you aren't wrong but I don't think you're wholly right, either.Â

I will say that the one ability I concede as being 'off limits' as per a discussion with Berrod the other day, would be Dragonfire Dive. That was something that only the Azure Dragoon could do, apparently. Still, Dragoons are meant to be powerful, they have to fight dragons in the air, after all. But just like I wouldn't want to tangle with a Dragoon when they have the aerial advantage, I wouldn't want to go toe-to-toe with a monk armed only with my fists, either.

I mostly meant the 1% as more or less the most talented. In my own headcanon, becoming a dragoon is something that takes a lot of training, effort, and time. I can't get behind that it's something that can just be achieved and 'oh look I can leap now', if that makes any sense. I don't find anything off limits (except, yes Azure Dragoon abilities), but I feel like there needs to be a spectrum of reality on how long is spent getting from point A to point B in terms of skill.

And trust me, aerial combat may be great against giant things that fly, but could be disadvantageous against small, grounded targets. And I'd be pretty terrified of monks with heavy jamadhars as I would be terrified of a dude with a giant axe. There's an advantage and disadvantage to everything. I think everything is pretty balanced in the grand scheme of things. Just gotta think outside the box for some.

McBeefâ„¢ · **04-14-2015, 03:37 PM**

(04-14-2015, 01:14 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I was also under the impression the initial hits weren't dragoons but projectiles.

Also, I think the point of contention here is the difference between freedom of movement while falling and changing your destination at the peak of the jump. I don't think anyone would mind the latter, but when you become capable of flight with the former no one's going to find that "fair."

We've discussed at length here before about the veracity of people being okay with DRG being rockerlaunchersniperrifles. It basically went like this:

DRG: Sounds fine!
Everyone else: No, it doesn't!

I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

It's not a competition.

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