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Warren Castille · **12-19-2014, 08:39 AM**

I want to comment on ST tanks but it's going to sound like bragging.

In short, though, suck less! You're making us all look bad!

Berrod Armstrong · **12-19-2014, 08:45 AM**

(12-19-2014, 08:39 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I want to comment on ST tanks but it's going to sound like bragging.

In short, though, suck less! You're making us all look bad!

But I like when they play spin-the-dragon

Kellach Woods · **12-19-2014, 08:48 AM**

(12-19-2014, 08:39 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I want to comment on ST tanks but it's going to sound like bragging.

In short, though, suck less! You're making us all look bad!

It always does. Tongue

Like, I'm not even remotely competent. You just pick up certain tricks after running the damn thing 30 times in a week.

Warren Castille · **12-19-2014, 08:52 AM**

(12-19-2014, 08:48 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(12-19-2014, 08:39 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I want to comment on ST tanks but it's going to sound like bragging.

In short, though, suck less! You're making us all look bad!
It always does.

Like, I'm not even remotely competent. You just pick up certain tricks after running the damn thing 30 times in a week.

There's less to complain about now that Flash and CoS got threat increases, but it always drove me insane to have two warriors in the make-up and still end up tanking packs of trash.

YOU'VE GOT A CONQUEROR, YOU'VE GOT OVERPOWER, WTF IS THE PROBLEM

Kage · **12-19-2014, 08:53 AM**

(12-19-2014, 08:52 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(12-19-2014, 08:48 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(12-19-2014, 08:39 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I want to comment on ST tanks but it's going to sound like bragging.

In short, though, suck less! You're making us all look bad!
It always does.

Like, I'm not even remotely competent. You just pick up certain tricks after running the damn thing 30 times in a week.

There's less to complain about now that Flash and CoS got threat increases, but it always drove me insane to have two warriors in the make-up and still end up tanking packs of trash.

YOU'VE GOT A CONQUEROR, YOU'VE GOT OVERPOWER, WTF IS THE PROBLEM

Bad players. Laziness.... Mostly bads.

Melkire · **12-19-2014, 08:54 AM**

(12-19-2014, 08:52 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(12-19-2014, 08:48 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(12-19-2014, 08:39 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I want to comment on ST tanks but it's going to sound like bragging.

In short, though, suck less! You're making us all look bad!
It always does.

Like, I'm not even remotely competent. You just pick up certain tricks after running the damn thing 30 times in a week.

There's less to complain about now that Flash and CoS got threat increases, but it always drove me insane to have two warriors in the make-up and still end up tanking packs of trash.

YOU'VE GOT A CONQUEROR, YOU'VE GOT OVERPOWER, WTF IS THE PROBLEM

"oops I forgot defiance XD"

Eve Malusion · **12-19-2014, 09:15 AM**

I've always said "Hi friends" at the start of my random queues, but after they added commendations response to it is so negative, getting accused of commendation whoring and such and such! I just want to have a friendly run, darnit, wether you like me making you my friends for a run or not.

I appreciate starting my dungeons that way, I have been doing it for nearly a decade, and I refuse to accept being accused of just wanting commendations with rewards I have no interest in to begin with.

Kellach Woods · **12-19-2014, 09:15 AM**

(12-19-2014, 08:52 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: YOU'VE GOT A CONQUEROR, YOU'VE GOT OVERPOWER, WTF IS THE PROBLEM

All right. I will tell you WTF IS THE PROBLEM because apparently nobody tanks as warrior here. It's not in threat gen, but rather just how much of an afterthought WAR tanking actually is when it comes to design.

Overpower : Great tool, costs 130 TP, can be mashed, does not grant wrath stacks.
Steel Cyclone : GREATEST TOOL, better in every way than Overpower, costs 5 Wrath stacks

In short, if you're AoE tanking, you have to do single target until you get a chance to Steel Cyclone if your Infuriate is down or spam Overpower, where you will never see a Steel Cyclone again.

The problem is that since you're doing single target, you're not hitting the fuckers on the side. Who are the problem since they'll rush off to the squishies doing AoE burn or healing like mad (or better yet, overhealing.) If you're doing Overpower over and over again, you run out of TP (and NINs don't goad because fuck you that's why) and can't keep them up.

Either that or I blow at threat gen, which is a MUCH HIGHER POSSIBILITY.

Berrod Armstrong · **12-19-2014, 09:15 AM**

(12-19-2014, 08:54 AM)Melkire Wrote:
(12-19-2014, 08:52 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(12-19-2014, 08:48 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(12-19-2014, 08:39 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I want to comment on ST tanks but it's going to sound like bragging.

In short, though, suck less! You're making us all look bad!
It always does.

Like, I'm not even remotely competent. You just pick up certain tricks after running the damn thing 30 times in a week.

There's less to complain about now that Flash and CoS got threat increases, but it always drove me insane to have two warriors in the make-up and still end up tanking packs of trash.

YOU'VE GOT A CONQUEROR, YOU'VE GOT OVERPOWER, WTF IS THE PROBLEM

"oops I forgot defiance XD"

I don't really get mad when someone forgets defiance in a pug, forgetting things sometimes is only human!

When they consistently forget it becomes a concern.

Warren Castille · **12-19-2014, 09:23 AM**

(12-19-2014, 09:15 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(12-19-2014, 08:52 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: YOU'VE GOT A CONQUEROR, YOU'VE GOT OVERPOWER, WTF IS THE PROBLEM
All right. I will tell you WTF IS THE PROBLEM because apparently nobody tanks as warrior here. It's not in threat gen, but rather just how much of an afterthought WAR tanking actually is when it comes to design.

Overpower : Great tool, costs 130 TP, can be mashed, does not grant wrath stacks.
Steel Cyclone : GREATEST TOOL, better in every way than Overpower, costs 5 Wrath stacks

In short, if you're AoE tanking, you have to do single target until you get a chance to Steel Cyclone if your Infuriate is down or spam Overpower, where you will never see a Steel Cyclone again.

The problem is that since you're doing single target, you're not hitting the fuckers on the side. Who are the problem since they'll rush off to the squishies doing AoE burn or healing like mad (or better yet, overhealing.) If you're doing Overpower over and over again, you run out of TP (and NINs don't goad because fuck you that's why) and can't keep them up.

Either that or I blow at threat gen, which is a MUCH HIGHER POSSIBILITY.

On the trash packs in ST, though (specifically the first floor and the second floor) spiking hate is more important than having something to do with your GCDs. With 15 DPS no one should even be approaching hate threshholds if you open hard and TP will be back before you move to a boss. You've also got Flash for a not-token amount of threat if you bottom out and things aren't quite dead yet.

There are more effective ways to establish threat than Steel Cyclone when you get so much breathing room between trash and bosses.

Clarifying edit: I've only been talking about ST trash for the purposes of this discussion. One or two Overpowers is typical for dungeons and the like.

Berrod Armstrong · **12-19-2014, 09:38 AM**

(12-19-2014, 09:23 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(12-19-2014, 09:15 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(12-19-2014, 08:52 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: YOU'VE GOT A CONQUEROR, YOU'VE GOT OVERPOWER, WTF IS THE PROBLEM
All right. I will tell you WTF IS THE PROBLEM because apparently nobody tanks as warrior here. It's not in threat gen, but rather just how much of an afterthought WAR tanking actually is when it comes to design.

Overpower : Great tool, costs 130 TP, can be mashed, does not grant wrath stacks.
Steel Cyclone : GREATEST TOOL, better in every way than Overpower, costs 5 Wrath stacks

In short, if you're AoE tanking, you have to do single target until you get a chance to Steel Cyclone if your Infuriate is down or spam Overpower, where you will never see a Steel Cyclone again.

The problem is that since you're doing single target, you're not hitting the fuckers on the side. Who are the problem since they'll rush off to the squishies doing AoE burn or healing like mad (or better yet, overhealing.) If you're doing Overpower over and over again, you run out of TP (and NINs don't goad because fuck you that's why) and can't keep them up.

Either that or I blow at threat gen, which is a MUCH HIGHER POSSIBILITY.

On the trash packs in ST, though (specifically the first floor and the second floor) spiking hate is more important than having something to do with your GCDs. With 15 DPS no one should even be approaching hate threshholds if you open hard and TP will be back before you move to a boss. You've also got Flash for a not-token amount of threat if you bottom out and things aren't quite dead yet.

There are more effective ways to establish threat than Steel Cyclone when you get so much breathing room between trash and bosses.

Clarifying edit: I've only been talking about ST trash for the purposes of this discussion. One or two Overpowers is typical for dungeons and the like.

With flash, Overpower, provoke and Steel cyclone available on 5 stacks and at least once a minute with infuriate, I don't run into problems at all. Gear's 110 mosty (with a couple 100s left).Â

When you go in, go hard: Beserk, Steel cyclone, go crazy (when beserk gives you that pacification debuff and no one cleanses you, by the time you flash twice it's over!). If you ever end up with infuriate while also having 5 stacks, go wild -- unchain yourself, Steel cyclone, overpower, flash, be a beast. Playing warrior isn't about sweating over GCDs and squinting at your infuriate stacks, it's about being a bloody beast with your abilities so that you get to the top of the threat table by so far a margin that by the time the DPS catch up, you're ready to wreck again.

Elicoidali · **12-19-2014, 09:43 AM**

(12-17-2014, 02:03 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Oh, I remembered an actual instance of frustration.

Did Haukke NM the other night in roulette and my complimentary DPS was a black mage. A black mage who only cast blizzard. No bliz 2. No fire of any variety. Would cast thunder on bosses once and then bliz bliz bliz bliz bliz.

I don't think it was RMTbot because the name wasn't gibberish, but that wasn't even what bugged me. I tried to explain (reasonably! I know that's hard to believe) that fire spells do more damage and black mages can switch back and forth between elements to-

Nope. Blizzard 1. And they didn't help on any adds during the boss, or touch any lamps. Bliz bliz bliz bliz bliz.

Preemptive edit/disclaimer: Character was under level sync, there was no new person message (don't remember if NMs get them) and they had pinks from higher dungeons. I don't consider expecting someone to know how to play elitism, and I even understand they might have been a console player without a keyboard. Outright ignoring advice will forever make me angry.

(12-17-2014, 02:18 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I had a situation where I'm not sure if the guy was ignoring us or just didn't understand or... something.

Oddly enough, it was in Darkhold again (I'm sensing a pattern). I was healing and our tank absolutely refused to stand in the light of the crystal when tanking the adds. Like, he actively stood outside them. We repeatedly told him that he'd take less damage inside it, but he still avoided them like the plague.

(12-17-2014, 02:46 PM)Kage Wrote: I actually, for once, vote dismissed a blm from cutter's cry back when I was leveling SCH. They used Blizz more than anything even though I calmly tried to explain that Fire is much better...

No response.

Nothing.

Then I did a gear examine and saw that the only thing they had for their class was the weapon. Everything else was gatherer or crafting gear. Other dps noticed as well. Vote kick.

Had to skip over the current posts to share a similar experience. (I'll read the others after I promise.;; )

I also did roulette (just the low level one) recently. Skipped cutscene, popped Protect and waited for the PLD tank to move. Standard stuff. But then he just... stood there. He moved after a few seconds and proceeds to attack. No shield lob, no flash--so naturally things started to come for me. The NIN and BRD told him nicely he should use Flash when he can (and in proximity of the mobs). We move on, he uses Flash out of sight of the mobs, still hasn't used shield lob.. I figured he's either lagging or he's pretty new, so I just /cheered him on when the NIN and BRD scolded(?) him again. Plus he wasn't talking at all so maaaybe he was feeling embarrassed?

Bottomline is, I gave him the benefit of the doubt all throughout the dungeon even if he still used Flash in front of walls and inanimate objects. The other two left without another word and I was left with this guy. The only thing he said was "Have what do".

And then he left the instance.

What?

(also i'm sorry i don't have anything to vent?? is this already off-topic??)

Gegenji · **12-19-2014, 09:46 AM**

(12-19-2014, 09:38 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: When you go in, go hard: Beserk, Steel cyclone, go crazy (when beserk gives you that pacification debuff and no one cleanses you, by the time you flash twice it's over!). If you ever end up with infuriate while also having 5 stacks, go wild -- unchain yourself, Steel cyclone, overpower, flash, be a beast. Playing warrior isn't about sweating over GCDs and squinting at your infuriate stacks, it's about being a bloody beast with your abilities so that you get to the top of the threat table by so far a margin that by the time the DPS catch up, you're ready to wreck again.

Is that how it works? WAR is... 37ish on my main and I've been trying to figure out how to maintain aggro on groups without running myself dry in short order (and, as mentioned, the bevvy of NIN seem to never give me that tasty Goad). Currently, in dungeons, I tend to throw a few Overpowers, Flash a time or two, and then focus damage on one target while using the third in the basic combo to smack either the enemy that will be next in line or... more likely... whatever target the OTHER DPS is hitting rather than the main target (also known as what the FIRST DPS is hitting, since it's not uncommon for them to pick their own targets rather than hit what I'm hitting).

Is it just a matter of not having my entire toolset yet? Or am I just fundamentally approaching it wrong?

Warren Castille · **12-19-2014, 09:56 AM**

(12-19-2014, 09:43 AM)Elicoidali Wrote: Had to skip over the current posts to share a similar experience. (I'll read the others after I promise.;; )

I also did roulette (just the low level one) recently. Skipped cutscene, popped Protect and waited for the PLD tank to move. Standard stuff. But then he just... stood there. He moved after a few seconds and proceeds to attack. No shield lob, no flash--so naturally things started to come for me. The NIN and BRD told him nicely he should use Flash when he can (and in proximity of the mobs). We move on, he uses Flash out of sight of the mobs, still hasn't used shield lob.. I figured he's either lagging or he's pretty new, so I just /cheered him on when the NIN and BRD scolded(?) him again. Plus he wasn't talking at all so maaaybe he was feeling embarrassed?

Bottomline is, I gave him the benefit of the doubt all throughout the dungeon even if he still used Flash in front of walls and inanimate objects. The other two left without another word and I was left with this guy. The only thing he said was "Have what do".

And then he left the instance.

What?

(also i'm sorry i don't have anything to vent?? is this already off-topic??)

Possibly didn't speak English? I've heard horror stories of people getting into dungeons with gladiators and paladins without shields even EQUIPPED, let alone not using Shield Lob. There really needs to be a firmer hand where the game tells you to go do your class quests. My MRD is 27 from 1.0's time, and before taking I did exactly one dungeon on it before realizing I didn't have Tomahawk. Whoops.

Different gripe: NIN is 43 and I'm trying to push it to 44 so I can at least try to benefit from my inevitable DZ spam for Zodiac. Of course I get Ifrit.

Of course it's with a minimum-level gladiator and with another ninja.

OF COURSE the other ninja doesn't attack the nail and we wipe to inferno.

OF COURSE COMPLETION LEAVES ME 2/3 TO LEVEL.

Whine whine whine. My life is so hard you guys. So hard.

Berrod Armstrong · **12-19-2014, 09:58 AM**

(12-19-2014, 09:46 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(12-19-2014, 09:38 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: When you go in, go hard: Beserk, Steel cyclone, go crazy (when beserk gives you that pacification debuff and no one cleanses you, by the time you flash twice it's over!). If you ever end up with infuriate while also having 5 stacks, go wild -- unchain yourself, Steel cyclone, overpower, flash, be a beast. Playing warrior isn't about sweating over GCDs and squinting at your infuriate stacks, it's about being a bloody beast with your abilities so that you get to the top of the threat table by so far a margin that by the time the DPS catch up, you're ready to wreck again.

Is that how it works? WAR is... 37ish on my main and I've been trying to figure out how to maintain aggro on groups without running myself dry in short order (and, as mentioned, the bevvy of NIN seem to never give me that tasty Goad). Currently, in dungeons, I tend to throw a few Overpowers, Flash a time or two, and then focus damage on one target while using the third in the basic combo to smack either the enemy that will be next in line or... more likely... whatever target the OTHER DPS is hitting rather than the main target (also known as what the FIRST DPS is hitting, since it's not uncommon for them to pick their own targets rather than hit what I'm hitting).

Is it just a matter of not having my entire toolset yet? Or am I just fundamentally approaching it wrong?

You gotta work with what you have. As a leveling WAR I'd overpower once, then flash until out of MP (lol aka three or four times). It saved a hell of a lot on my TP during pulls, and I would always make sure I was at full TP before going into a fight (I like to stand where I am and do /stretch when I'm filling up, the party usually seems to understand what that means).Â

The way I see it, Paladins have a one-two-three structure with steady threat abilities and cooldowns to keep them alive. They play a piano, and it's a beautiful song. People who enjoy structured playstyles tend to enjoy it and hold it as superior, from what I've noticed.

Warriors: You have your box of hammers and your job is to find a way to fuck up as MANY things with those hammers as possible and keep them as angry as possible at you while your buddies wreck them. It's visceral, wild, thrilling and requires that triggery sort of nature. Playstyle for the wild ones!Â

They both are excellent jobs, and it's really a matter of your preference in playstyle. From there, it's up to the player to learn to master the use of the tools given to do the job!

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