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Berrod Armstrong · **09-23-2014, 11:19 AM**

Hmm.Â

I think it's up to us at this point. Square has plotted out the lay of the land, and we have a clear picture of how things are going to be. So!Â

Players can decide to risk the grind and rush, knowing fully well that they may not necessarily get what they're working for. All in the concept of risk, really!Â

Players can give up and seek other things in the game -- because wow there's a lot!Â

Players can also give up and seek out the housing they want that seems 'standard' in every other MMO, in other MMOS with 'better business models', run by devs who don't 'lie'* to them. As consumers, they have that power -- if it's not satisfying, look elsewhere. To continue to consume something so allegedly unsatisfactory really makes all points made against it background noise. Sure, you have the choice to consume, always! But uh...if there's really much better else out there...?

I think everyone's arguments have merit. I agree with a lot, I disagree with some, and learned a thing or two. I know though, that I'm pretty bloody happy enough with the game to risk the grind and rush, AND still play if I don't succeed, because I'm just that satisfied with everything else. I wouldn't play with something I was dissatisfied with at all. But that's just me!

The thing is, we've seen how it's going to be. They've laid out their intentions, and I hope they learned now that a failure to constantly update can be vehemently percieved as a lie*, malicious or otherwise. Points are flying around and argument is in full swing and going in a couple circles. But! What's everyone going to do? When the dust settles on this thread, how does each player intend to treat the situation?

Dissect as necessary, but in the end, you still gotta decide how to go forward.

*saying something and not updating the outdated information, whether by forgetfulness or folly

Cato · **09-23-2014, 11:24 AM**

(09-23-2014, 11:15 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(09-23-2014, 10:59 AM)Naunet Wrote: Please, please point me to the MMO trend where fishing weeklies designed as a racing competition are established as standard, available to everyone content, as housing is.

(09-23-2014, 11:01 AM)J Wrote: Either way a single weekly quest does not compare to something as massively anticipated as player housing which can be customised extensively and encourages player investment.

Subjective. Like I said, this is a slippery slope. There are fishing-stat exclusive items that come from those dailies so as someone who's only interested in fishing, I should be allowed to compete. It's not fair I can't be online.

See what I mean? I don't really subscribe to that opinion, but how is it any less valid than what's being said in this thread?

It's not really subjective in the way in which you're trying to present it as being. For starters the quest repeats every single week whilst in FFXIV you have to wait three months on average for a new patch and the increase in the number of housing wards and plots.

A weekly quest for fishing is by no means comparable to something as highly desirable as player housing. A lot of people may like fishing, sure - but it's unlikely to be something that the masses feel strongly about. Player housing, on the other hand, is typically something that is incredibly highly anticipated as evidenced by this very same discussion playing out across many FFXIV related sites.

Warren Castille · **09-23-2014, 11:34 AM**

Silly to use "on average" when there's only ever been one increase and we'll be getting another one in 2.4, but alright. I'll concede the point.

Quote:Hunting down achievements in WoW and FFXIV isn't 'necessary' by your definition though countless players players invest in those features regardless and they enjoy it. If you don't care for housing, fine - just please stop acting like your word is law and that nobody should care for it if they're so inclined to enjoy such in-game features.

Should probably stop telling me the fishing contest doesn't count, then.

Naunet · **09-23-2014, 11:38 AM**

(09-23-2014, 11:15 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Subjective. Like I said, this is a slippery slope. There are fishing-stat exclusive items that come from those dailies so as someone who's only interested in fishing, I should be allowed to compete. It's not fair I can't be online.

There is no limit to the number of people who can compete in the fishing weeklies.

No slippery slope here, even though you keep trying to insist on it.

Warren Castille · **09-23-2014, 11:39 AM**

(09-23-2014, 11:38 AM)Naunet Wrote:
(09-23-2014, 11:15 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: Subjective. Like I said, this is a slippery slope. There are fishing-stat exclusive items that come from those dailies so as someone who's only interested in fishing, I should be allowed to compete. It's not fair I can't be online.

There is no limit to the number of people who can compete in the fishing weeklies.

No slippery slope here, even though you keep trying to insist on it.

There's similarly no limit to the number of people who can be online trying to grab a house when the gun goes off.

Cato · **09-23-2014, 11:39 AM**

As I said it doesn't count in the way in which you're trying to claim it does. You're free to agree to disagree, of course, but as someone who has invested in quite a number of different MMO's over the years and currently devotes my MMO time between FFXIV and WoW I'd like to think I'm reasonably aware of the popularity of specific in-game activities and features within the MMO's that I've played.

Naunet · **09-23-2014, 11:41 AM**

(09-23-2014, 11:19 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Players can also give up and seek out the housing they want that seems 'standard' in every other MMO, in other MMOS with 'better business models', run by devs who don't 'lie'* to them. As consumers, they have that power -- if it's not satisfying, look elsewhere.Â

This is what I have done. And I couldn't be happier. Farewell, crappy XIV housing.

(09-23-2014, 11:39 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: There's similarly no limit to the number of people who can be online trying to grab a house when the gun goes off.

The fishing weeklies are a competition. By nature, a competition only has a few winners. Housing is not a competition in any reasonable MMO, except for making bigger and grander displays - not to just get in the door. Attempting to equate fishing weeklies with a massive development feature that can hook people to a game for a long period of time and gives them an established place of their own in the game world is like saying that a pebble is the same as an apple.

Kage · **09-23-2014, 11:42 AM**

(09-23-2014, 11:16 AM)Kage Wrote: The thing is... 6 Wards... 12 Wards.. 16 wards.. that's not going to be the end all be all to housing. They're going to keep adding more. From the statement I linked and quoted, they're hoping that they will get a system up that seems to aim to get housing up that will be much more servable to the population. It's. just. going. to. take. time.

(09-23-2014, 10:29 AM)Kage Wrote: Yoshi-p's post didn't say that the doubling of wards is the definitive amount of wards that are being added but that they knew they needed to work really hard in adding wards and that's their first big step.

Nice relevant part from Yoshi-p's post Wrote:The development team has been making the most of limited server resources to develop a new system that will allow us to add as many new housing plots as possible

Stay tuned to fanfest and or around the same time for when 2.4 drops as he said he will be posting an update before 2.4

Cato · **09-23-2014, 11:50 AM**

It's great that they're prepared to add more wards. It is, unfortunately, simply a case of sticking a bandage on a wound without first disinfecting it. It'll help to an extent but the core issue of too many players and not enough houses will still rear its ugly head with each new patch.

Which, I assume, is precisely why this debate is taking place - so we can get together and vent, share ideas and then hopefully piece potential solutions together to post on the official forum. The whole angle of trying to tell other players what they should want out of FFXIV isn't really helping nor is it particularly constructive.

A healthy community boasts people from all sorts of different backgrounds and with all sorts of different desires. Sometimes they align, sometimes they don't. It shouldn't be rocket science and we've already had this particular debate censored once already, I'd hate to see that happen again; especially in a community that loves to market itself as open, friendly, tolerant and welcoming.

Warren Castille · **09-23-2014, 11:53 AM**

(09-23-2014, 11:39 AM)Jrakh Nunh Wrote: As I said it doesn't count in the way in which you're trying to claim it does. You're free to agree to disagree, of course, but as someone who has invested in quite a number of different MMO's over the years and currently devotes my MMO time between FFXIV and WoW I'd like to think I'm reasonably aware of the popularity of specific in-game activities and features within the MMO's that I've played.

I think the Great Housing Battle of 2014 will be a footnote in a decade, just like the fishing contest is now. We're discussing peak-interest, though. Of COURSE the fishing contest that's now years old is going to be under populated. It's no different than Gurubashi Arena now, where you're lucky to see one or two people camping the box. Doesn't mean it wasn't highly contested before, though, just like houses are.

We're getting really off course, though, and I'm not trying to make this into the argument it's becoming. Hard to tell, I know, but I'm just saying that in a patch or two it should be water under the bridge.

I'm reading these posts and can remember clearly the same things being leveraged with the log-in issues at launch, the 90k issues in early access, Titan Hard Mode, etc.

Naunet · **09-23-2014, 11:55 AM**

(09-23-2014, 11:53 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I'm reading these posts and can remember clearly the same things being leveraged with the log-in issues at launch, the 90k issues in early access, Titan Hard Mode, etc.

Huh? Elaborate, because people complaining about horrendous server problems (the Great Error Singularity of launch) or being unable to beat Titan Hard Mode are not in any way, shape, or form similar to SE failing - through deliberate or unintended stupidity - to take into account how much MMO players love housing systems these days.

K'nahli · **09-23-2014, 12:00 PM**

(09-23-2014, 09:53 AM)J Wrote: It'd be great if you could stop resorting to hyperbole and trying to twist other poster's words to be read in the worst possible manner. Role-players really are their own worst enemy and it's very telling that I can have this exact same discussion on a site like MMO-Champion yet the community and individuals here that love to market themselves as 'friendly and welcoming' can't stop sniping at each other.

(This was clarified for me by Warren but I'll leave it here since it expresses a point nonetheless. Sorry for the confusion)

Was this directed towards me? I made my post at work so I had to rush it a little and if I came off a certain way(negatively, that is) then that was not my intent. I am not trying to deny anyone's right to be angry or voice their complaints. My only stance on it is that I disagree with how many people are treating it as though Yoshi knew exactly what he was doing and what was going to happen when in reality that makes no sense at all. Again, he could have handled it better, but everything is always clearer in hindsight and I have yet to hear a compelling argument that can even make me consider the idea that he was trying to pull a fast one on us.

(09-23-2014, 10:10 AM)Naunet Wrote:
(09-23-2014, 09:45 AM)K Wrote: Is it unreasonable to believe that Yoshi didn't realise that a non-unique housing ward for personal homes was that big of a deal?

It's not necessarily unreasonable, but that would certainly make him stupid. Anyone can look at the trend in MMOs today and see that personal housing isÂ extremelyÂ important to the playerbase.

I didn't mean on a permanent basis but to assume that going the route he did was perfectly fine as a starting point because, despite what some people say, I think he had an extremely valid point. Regardless of how anyone feels about empty FCs, that's just (clearly much-needed) server space going to a complete waste.

Lets not forget that we're a community all socialising with one another, sharing ideas and anticipations about upcoming content that can easily be read into as fact over lengthy periods of time like the one we had leading up to it's implementation... all because a certain aspect wasn't detailed or mentioned previously, whether Yoshi neglected to think of it or simply overlooked it as something that required addressing.

I can only speculate of course but the malicious, conspiracy theories(as they almost sound) are just completely unfounded in my opinion. I really like Yoshi and I want to believe that he would "do no wrong", but that doesn't mean that I will make excuses for him or blindly defend him either. I am only doing so because it seems the only reasonable route to me.

I know I might receive flak for this and might get mocked in a sense, but it's the wording that is throwing me a little bit. There is a big difference between "feeling" that you have been lied to and genuinely having being lied to. I know Yoshi won't ever read this but I think it's only courtesy to not accuse anyone of anything without true merit; it's very unfair to the man in my opinion.

Warren Castille · **09-23-2014, 12:01 PM**

(09-23-2014, 11:55 AM)Naunet Wrote:
(09-23-2014, 11:53 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I'm reading these posts and can remember clearly the same things being leveraged with the log-in issues at launch, the 90k issues in early access, Titan Hard Mode, etc.

Huh? Elaborate, because people complaining about horrendous server problems (the Great Error Singularity of launch) or being unable to beat Titan Hard Mode are not in any way, shape, or form similar to SE failing - through deliberate or unintended stupidity - to take into account how much MMO players love housing systems these days.

I'd have to dig to find the posts for it on the OF, but people flipped their lids over losing early acces ("It's part of my pre-order, you owe me my money back") and the server congestion ("You owe me free time because I can't log in"). People complained that Titan was too hard and unfair and threatened to unsub.

People are always going to be unhappy, people are always going to threaten to leave, people are always going to cry foul. That doesn't mean anyone's points here are invalid (again, I agree with the sentiments) but this is just the new topic to rage over.

Naunet · **09-23-2014, 12:09 PM**

(09-23-2014, 12:01 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I'd have to dig to find the posts for it on the OF, but people flipped their lids over losing early acces ("It's part of my pre-order, you owe me my money back") and the server congestion ("You owe me free time because I can't log in"). People complained that Titan was too hard and unfair and threatened to unsub.

And still none of those are the same kind of issue as the housing mess. o.0

And your last paragraph is completely unproductive.

Warren Castille · **09-23-2014, 12:14 PM**

(09-23-2014, 12:09 PM)Naunet Wrote: And still none of those are the same kind of issue as the housing mess. o.0

And your last paragraph is completely unproductive.

I'm... sorry? I'm doing an awful job of conveying my point, I guess. My fault for posting at work.

I consider them the same kind of issue because it comes down to expectations not being met by SE. People wanted Early Access and were denied for reasons outside of their control. People wanted to log in, same dilemma.

People wanted personal housing, and they feel lied to and mislead because of how it got implemented. Except it wasn't really a lie, because the original word hinted at things we'd get, exactly when they said we'd get them. Players wanted <thing> but didn't get <thing> so they're feeling let down.

The point of my second paragraph is that people are always going to complain about something. Some of those complaints are valid and constructive, but most of them are just noise at best, or are deliberately trying to antagonize SE at worst.

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Personal Housing Thread 2.0

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