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Gegenji · **11-18-2014, 01:03 PM**

That's always the way of raiding, I think. Especially for those who put in the effort and the hours to overcome it pre-nerf. You came at it when it was new, fresh, and hard, and managed to overcome it with coordination and skill. The story arcs that you unlocked and the pieces of gear you gained were a symbol of your achievement. It's like seeing all the people running around with Onyxia gear when you remember the days of the 40-man raid in WoW.

... Oddly enough, I kinda felt echos of that when they upped the Atma drop rate after I had JUST finished that phase of the zodiac chain. Laugh

Kage · **11-18-2014, 01:24 PM**

I just read this anecdote while someone tried to do T6 today after 2.41.

Quote:I just DFed T6 to see how people would handle the mechanics, 6 of us were experienced with the fight, one healer was new and one NIN was new. The healer would run around during blight (and subsequently died even with the nerf to to blight), the NIN ran around as soon as he got honey glazed as if he thought the hornet wouldn't follow him.

This led to me (in my infinite wisdom) trying to follow him (instead of just letting him die and attacking the hornet when he targets someone else) and then I got marked by devour and the MT took the devour because I was way out of position trying to kill the hornet. Oh and I didn't die to the devour, I died before I got devoured because the healer that died from blight never accepted the other healer's raise. NIN also refused to attack the Dark Matter Bulb that spawned in the middle.

I'm still interested in the job thing. Now you can't easily make alts either. I know of several people who told me that they didn't do many dungeons to even get close to finish main scenario quests who still got to 50 jobs.

Kage · **11-18-2014, 02:09 PM**

These are the adjusted icons btw

Zyrusticae · **11-18-2014, 07:12 PM**

I am of the mind that these nerfs are misguided and the real solution is to have "story mode" and "normal/hard mode" Coils so people who just want the story content can get their clear and move on.

I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in raiding progression and will never, ever touch this content even after the nerfs because I cannot stand being held back by other players and trying to coordinate things with random strangers. It's too bloody stressful for something that's supposed to be my bloody entertainment. YES, I MAD!

Even post-nerf I'm never going to clear T5 or T9 because there are too many players who can't run them and too few players who can who are actually willing to help me with it. And I don't care to go through that kind of trouble. It's not fun. Not even remotely so.

The hardest thing about hardcore raiding has always been the people management. No small wonder that games that focus specifically on that junk fail before long (lol Wildstar). It's an outdated, outmoded type of content and frankly, I wouldn't be sad at all to see it disappear entirely (but I wouldn't suggest that because it does serve a very specific, if unfortunately toxic, kind of customer).

Merri · **11-18-2014, 07:26 PM**

(11-18-2014, 07:12 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: I am of the mind that these nerfs are misguided and the real solution is to have "story mode" and "normal/hard mode" Coils so people who just want the story content can get their clear and move on.

This is more or less my stance on the subject as well. I'm certainly not against giving more people the opportunity to experience coil, which is why at the end of the day I'm not terribly upset. My static is finished with second coil, outside of farming a few T9 drops for people who still want stuff (Gotta get that damn coat to drop already), so the nerfs don't directly affect us. However, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little bit bummed that if we were to go back and do content for whatever reason, it just wouldn't be the same as it was.

If they would just keep normal coil the way it was, savage coil the way it is (which they have so far, thankfully) and introduce an easier story mode coil, I think they would have a decent balance.

Instead, they just kinda ruin the integrity of certain content. Granted it's old and no longer terribly relevant content, but it's still just sort of broken now in a sense to certain groups. Can't please everyone, however, so it is what it is.

allgivenover · **11-18-2014, 08:00 PM**

That's a bad idea. The story is almost as big an incentive to many Coil groups as the gear. Making an easy "story mode" coil would go a long way toward me and many others being less interested. It's also totally needless because all of the cutscenes get posted anyway. I'd rather them not pull away from what they're supposed to be doing, crafting the hardest of the hard content for the game, so they can develop a "story mode" version.

They just need to not rely so heavily on team jump-rope in the future to make things difficult is really all it is. That way these huge nerfs would not be necessary.

Edgar · **11-18-2014, 08:54 PM**

Having just beaten T5 as Edgar, this is a godsend for me. The timing couldn't be more perfect. I'm still scared shitless of T9, though.

Kellach Woods · **11-19-2014, 02:11 AM**

I'd settle on just being able to get ON ;.;

(11-18-2014, 07:26 PM)Merri Wrote: However, I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little bit bummed that if we were to go back and do content for whatever reason, it just wouldn't be the same as it was.

Even if they didn't change a danged thing, and even if you went with the very same gear you had at that point, the experience wouldn't be the same due to changes to the classes themselves, game's stability, tiny fixes here and there.

Kage · **11-19-2014, 02:20 AM**

The better gear you have + echo makes a bit of difference.

I have finally moved onto learning how to move around in heavensfall and get to start learning divebombs and the IN OUT IN WHATCHAMACALL ITS in T9 because of echo. We guarantee < or = 4 meteors before golems. Golems are killed easily and 2nd set goes down before the 10 seconds to Megaflare message.

Yay! Still won't survive heavensfall on your head or pushing you into the wall though. Damn placement and horrible evasion of GHost death aoe into heavensfall.

Nebbs · **11-19-2014, 04:39 AM**

Well I was into heavenafall on T9 after joining a statc (thanks Ilwe), and with the echo I expect that we will finish T9 soon.

Though I have yet to finish 7 or even go in 8. But now they are in DF I can get the learning tries in without having to go through the PF pain. Also with the removal of sudden death and gear over i110 it will be more scrabble and less finess.

I still don't know why they don't DF new content.

Steel Wolf · **11-19-2014, 08:17 AM**

(11-18-2014, 07:12 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: I am of the mind that these nerfs are misguided and the real solution is to have "story mode" and "normal/hard mode" Coils so people who just want the story content can get their clear and move on.

I have absolutely no interest whatsoever in raiding progression and will never, ever touch this content even after the nerfs because I cannot stand being held back by other players and trying to coordinate things with random strangers. It's too bloody stressful for something that's supposed to be my bloody entertainment. YES, I MAD!

Even post-nerf I'm never going to clear T5 or T9 because there are too many players who can't run them and too few players who can who are actually willing to help me with it. And I don't care to go through that kind of trouble. It's not fun. Not even remotely so.

The hardest thing about hardcore raiding has always been the people management. No small wonder that games that focus specifically on that junk fail before long (lol Wildstar). It's an outdated, outmoded type of content and frankly, I wouldn't be sad at all to see it disappear entirely (but I wouldn't suggest that because it does serve a very specific, if unfortunately toxic, kind of customer).

QFF'inT! Preach it mah kitteh!!

The problem with raids are (generally) the raiders. Or more specifically, the prevalent attitude that others can't have their prestige or join their little boys' club.

I am ALL FOR a story/solo version for those who would like to get the plot associated with a raid or major dungeon and a normal/hard version for those who must have BiS or their ePeen Enhancement.

Gating content behind gearscores and raiding attitudes is THE WORST design prevalent in the themepark MMO and it needs to die.

/rant

...WHEW! I feel way better.

Warren Castille · **11-19-2014, 08:50 AM**

I'll voice the unpopular opinion, then.

There's not a single part of Coil that's currently pertinent to the main storyline. It's closure for 1.0. As far as the current plot is concerned, Coil's got no bearing on it whatsoever.

For me, it's cost/benefit. My playtime isn't as large as it used to be and Coil's hard numbers requirement (hope you've got exactly seven friends) just isn't worth grappling with. I just find the cutscenes and write-ups elsewhere because I'm interested in them, but don't particularly care if I see my character in the scene or not. The plot's important, not my avatar in them.

It's a slippery slope if you suddenly enable people who can't do endgame to do endgame on an Easy Mode. Does everyone realize there's story attached to the Extreme Modes? Nerf those so I can solo clear Titan EX and see the cutscenes. Crystal Tower queues are too long, I want a solo version so I can see how it turns out.

The changes to SCoB are dramatic. Folks who couldn't do Coil before can do so now without fear of instantly wiping their raid, but you still have to know your ass from a hole in the ground to participate. You have to work for the reward, and sometimes that means slugging it out with awful PF or DF groups to get what you want. I don't want handouts.

To be remarkably unpopular and probably anger a lot of people, Twintania isn't that difficult. It takes wiping repeatedly to each phase to know what you're supposed to do, but that's to be expected from final bosses! T9 is the same way; You can't expect to just waltz in unopposed and get your loot/cutscenes. There's a very structured rotation to every single aspect of that fight and it comes down to just rote memorization/anticipation.

Are you going to wipe because of other idiots who can't get their heads on straight? You bet your ass you are. I can't count the number of times I've wiped on <take your pick of examples> because idiot <take your pick of role> don't know how to handle <take your pick of mechanic> and in a lot of the difficult fights once people start dying, that's the ballgame. I've been that guy, and I've been inconvenienced because of that guy, and I've inconvenienced people by being that guy. It sucks. No one would disagree with you. But, everyone's been there.

But out of those encounters you find the people who have brains in their heads and you make new friends. I've got a number of people on my friend's list that are only there because we know that we can do <pick your content> if we need it. That's working as intended - You meet new people while playing the game.

I don't understand the grousing, I guess. If you're not able to play at the level the game requests of you, keep practicing. If you are but others aren't, look for the people who can and make a strike team. If that takes too much time or effort, find the cutscenes on youtube or the write-ups on fansites. If it's SO IMPORTANT that you be the star in those cutscenes, well... 30 goto 10.

Steel Wolf · **11-19-2014, 09:20 AM**

Fair enough, and I wholly agree that a dungeon should be a challenge for those who want one. I don't fault folks for that, of course.

The thing I advocate for are choices.

There are more than just those who are completely ice-cold cool with grinding to meet a gearscore metric, and those folks pay the same amount of subscription money as those who park in More Donuts demanding people meet their requisites of knowledge or item level. And, frankly, the point of adventuring ought to be going out and meeting a challenge regardless of an item level.

Incidentally (and speaking for only myself) I'm not asking to simply waltz in there. I'd like a challenge too, but one that scales to the individual or the small group. Being forced into a small army or forced out because some folks won't let you in because you haven't done this before isn't challenge. It's jackassery.

Now, apparently the story in the Coil as you mentioned holds no major weight for current events. Fair enough. I'd still would have liked to have known what the hell is going on regardless, though. I mean, there's a big-ass dragon underground or something? That's sorta a thing I'd like to see. And the dungeon as an experience as opposed to an experience pool and shinies piÃ±ata is just being lost, which I find a bit sad.

Ah well, c'est la vie. More people being allowed to do a thing is, apparently, anathema to some's sense of superiority.

Clarity check--this is not calling out any one individual here on this forum or this thread. I don't accuse anyone of this behavior specifically (which I had mistakenly assumed of Kage like a dipsh**. Sorry, Kage-kun). My grousing is more resultant of design and the attitudes of some emergent of said design.

Warren Castille · **11-19-2014, 09:53 AM**

I can respect those opinions on choices, and to a large degree I agree with you. Being required to have exactly eight people makes for strenuous dealings, especially when needing to worry about progression lock-outs and the like.

The real challenge is, well, the challenge. After some of the top raiding groups cleared Coil2 and subsequently Savage Coil2, I know at least one of them revisited Coil1. There isn't a Savage version yet, so what they did to entertain themselves was clearing all of it at i55 with no Echo.

To reiterate that, because I think it's pretty ridiculous and worth repeating: A group of raiders cleared Coil1 up to Twintania (I don't recall if they ever beat her, but I stopped tracking them once they got through T4's DPS checks) wearing only dungeon greens from AK.

I know, I know. Cream of the crop, top of the line, best of the best. But there were people in full i90 who couldn't clear T4 when it was relevant. My point is that it becomes very difficult to gauge what is a proper challenge when the spectrum is so huge across the field.

I perhaps undervalued the significance of Coil's story, but I'll be vague because of spoilers: The topics discussed in it are the same topics discussed in the main story quests. The revelation is a bit more heavy-handed, but it doesn't tell us anything we don't specifically already know or suspect, and it is really, really cool, but ultimately it's still just the end of the 1.0 storyline. It's a good story, but it isn't a necessary one outside of the bits of lore it expounds upon.

I just know someone's going to beat me over the head on that particular point, and I half-agree with the validity of that.

Dungeons as an experience are also something I'd like to see more of. That's still a tricky dance, though. If dungeons become more complex, you're liable to alienate the folks who aren't up to the task. I recall fairly clearly back in 2.0 when the only dungeons worth doing at 50 were the only level 50 dungeons. You did WP or you did AK, and there was a huge number of people who couldn't do either. If you wanted i90 gear your options were Coil or grinding Mythology. Finding people to reliably meet the DPS check on Demon Wall wasn't a given. Finding people who wouldn't get ripped to shreds by the puddings in WP wasn't a given.

And then people complained. The gap was further complicated by the folks who started speedrunning WP and AK. People who couldn't do the dungeons cried out for nerfs on account of "exploits" and gates were put in to require more enemies killed. With those gates, there were still people who couldn't clear WP or AK reliably.

So, what's the plan? Make dungeons require minimal mechanic learning? I only JUST found out yesterday that you can pass Prey onto someone else during Sastasha HM's first boss. This was a revelation to me because you could ALSO do it with Inhale during the Zombiegoobue in Ampador City. That's a whole mechanic that got avoided and could have sped things up or made fights smoother. I still don't know how the first boss of Snowcloak works mechanically; You're plenty able to just throw DPS at it until he melts, though.

If you do that, you're only going to make things "worse" in the longrun when stepping into the new Coil or Coil-equivalent. You do your subscribers a disservice by suddenly ratcheting up the difficulty on them like that. Hell, going from Titan HM and getting your relic to fighting ADS1 in Coil1 Turn1 is a hell of a wake-up call. Mechanics! Adds! High Voltage! One slip-up and that's it. There was no feeling it out, no figuring it out as you go. Cad was the same way if you got to him. You executed a known-gameplan or everyone blew up. And there was NO ramp-up to this, it went from cyclical "easy" Titan mechanics to raid-wiping explosions in one trash hallway.

So do we make dungeons teach people how to dance with serious mechanics? Or do we leave that portion of PVE a mostly-cakewalk and then spring all of the instant death on folks in the endgame?

I think this is why there's such a large disparity between the raiding community and the non-raiding community. There's really no place to practice your skills for raiding outside of raiding and that basically means you don't raid unless you're already raiding with raiders who were raiding. All applicants must have experience in the field to join at an entry level. Self-defeating.

I'm rambling. Bleh.

Gegenji · **11-19-2014, 10:19 AM**

(11-19-2014, 09:53 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I think this is why there's such a large disparity between the raiding community and the non-raiding community. There's really no place to practice your skills for raiding outside of raiding and that basically means you don't raid unless you're already raiding with raiders who were raiding. All applicants must have experience in the field to join at an entry level. Self-defeating.

This is actually something I noticed and was bothered by back in WoW. "To run this raid, you have to have run this raid." Before the advent of the Raid Finder modes and the like, the only way to get experience on the raid content was to have an in through a friend in a raiding guild who was willing to vouch for you.

It's certainly not a field you can just waltz into, and I still remember how daunting it was as a fledgling raider back in the days of Molten Core 40 mans. At least there, the raid sizes were so bloated that you could coast along on everyone else's skill until you got the hang of things. I'm terrified to think how such things work in Coil, where there's such a difference in raider number. As such, I've only gotten to the first Coil... 2 (?) - the one before the "bouncy castle" - and that was through Duty Finder queues.

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RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes