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Kellach Woods · **12-23-2014, 01:10 PM**

Not the problem. I have a problem with this mentality that since, y'know, some of us don't like the new race we're unappreciative.

We're consumers. We're not always right, but we do have a right to say "this is not what I wanted." Even if 90% of people want it or something so they can pretty much ignore it. Thing is, if they don't know that some consumers don't like the new race they certainly won't take that into consideration (which doesn't mean caving in) when designing a possible 7th one.

Naunet · **12-23-2014, 01:11 PM**

Well, according to a lot of white knights on the official forums, we should be grateful supplicants to the gracious god of SE.

I personally think that attitude is toxic in a consumer-producer economic relationship, but there ya go. xD

Warren Castille · **12-23-2014, 01:13 PM**

Census numbers will take care of that. If no one plays the race, SE will investigate as to why. If lots flock to it, well, we don't have to like everything other people do.

g0ne · **12-23-2014, 01:13 PM**

*comes back, thread still heated*

Undecided

*quietly creeps away before anyone notices*

Iex · **12-23-2014, 01:18 PM**

(12-23-2014, 12:55 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: I don't get where "given to us" comes from though.

This is content part of an expansion that is SOLD to us.

Apologies on how direct this will sound:

Well, if the race offends people to much that they will not buy the expansion that includes three classes so far, 50-60, new zones, flying mounts, two new beast races, new primals, and other such things, ... uh they were just looking for a excuse not to get it or to quit.

Using the argument 'I paid money for this' does not belong in entertainment purchases such as this. FFXIV is not an indie game; it is not in beta. You are purchasing a product, much like a movie ticket. You go to see a movie to be entertained, there will be parts you like parts you don't, but you get them all regardless. But you only will buy it if the parts you like out weigh the parts you don't.

You can voice your opinion on if you like it or not. Though I honestly think you are just nitpicking my word choice. You are paying forÂ a game; however to gauge what the players want the developers CANNOT rely on anything but raw data for a large scale thing like a race. Then the developers produce stuff they enjoy and believe the players will enjoy as well based on the data.

I chose to use the term 'Given' because a majority of players here will be purchasing the expansion, new race or not. They are enjoying the game with or without the new race or classes. It has already been sold to us and we are the willing buyers, because in the world of MMOs... if you do not buy an expansion you really are not making the most of your subscription.

((Warren worded the data part far better than I could so... yeah.))

Edvyn · **12-23-2014, 01:19 PM**

ITT: people who play pretend on internet video games claim to be worthwhile critics, game designers, cultural analysts or whatever delusion fits their particular argument Cool

Gegenji · **12-23-2014, 01:25 PM**

(12-23-2014, 01:11 PM)Naunet Wrote: Well, according to a lot of white knights on the official forums, we should be grateful supplicants to the gracious god of SE.

I kinda started skimming the thread as things got more and more heated, but it seems less and less about being grateful supplicants and more that the Au Ra has inspired angry rants about dimorphism and company laziness. Some interesting posts have come from the former (such as the in-depth comparison of the gender models across all races), but a lot of it seems to have devolved into arguments over person opinions on what the new race was "supposed" to be.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. You don't have to like the new race and you're not required to play one when the expansion hits. As mentioned, if enough people don't play it, SE will most likely look into it and see about either making changes or taking a different approach with any future races.

However, it does seem that plenty of folks do like them and will be making one or possibly even Fantasia'ing one of their existing characters into one. AND we don't quite know what all will be entailed (hee hee, tail) with the customization. Maybe there will be a horn slider, so you can make your Au Ra lady sport a pair that'll make a minotaur blush. There could be options to add/remove more scales.

I'm ultimately going to hold my reservations until I get more information, but they do look pretty swank so far. Dimorphism or not.

EDIT: Aaaaand I took too long in compiling my thoughts, now I gotta read all these posts that popped up in the interim. Sad

Kellach Woods · **12-23-2014, 01:28 PM**

(12-23-2014, 01:18 PM)Iex Wrote: You can voice your opinion on if you like it or not. Though I honestly think you are just nitpicking my word choice. You are paying forÂ a game; however to gauge what the players want the developers CANNOT rely on anything but raw data for a large scale thing like a race. Then the developers produce stuff they enjoy and believe the players will enjoy as well based on the data.

If you only rely on data then you're cut off from the human element. Feedback has to be taken into consideration because data doesn't have emotions, and more importantly it can't be considered prior to the fact.

Otherwise, why bother to seek out feedback for anything, really? Just put it out there! If it's not popular it sucks, right!?

Data can tell you how much, but it can't tell you why. That's why feedback's there.

Also, it's still not a nitpick regardless of what you think. I'd understand if the Au Ra were given to everyone regardless of whether they get the xpac or not but that's obviously not the case here. It's expansion content. I mean, they're also putting in expanded Ishgard, and quite frankly the last thing I needed is more Ishgard.

Still gotta pay 40$+ for it if I want the rest tho.

Warren Castille · **12-23-2014, 01:44 PM**

I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that SE's going to be closely monitoring the metrics on Au Ra, as well as everything else come 3.0.

Are people rolling the new race? Are they fantasia'ing? From what race? Mains? Alts? Are people doing Alexander? Are they blah blah blahing? What's the most popular blah blah blah? They've done a good job compiling census date in the past, it seems waving them off and assuming they won't look into things is a bit presumptuous.

If no one plays Au Ra, they'll likely look into why. If there's a lot of folks changing from the races that seem similar (elezen, hyur, miqo) they'll likely consider the new race a success. If there's not a lot of people playing Roes post-3.0, can't SE then consider that "less human" looking races aren't popular?

On a scale of 1-10, let's say that Hyur are 1 on the beastial scale and Roe are 7. If you make a new race and everyone flocks to the female Au Ra, who is rated 2.5 on the scale, why would anyone think "You know, the next race should be a hard 10." Elezen-with-tusks probably floats with Roe around 7, and if male Au Ra suddenly become the bee's knees, you can probably guess SE will also consider that a success. "Well, they liked this, maybe they just don't like Roe."

It just sounds like gloom and doom to go "SE is out of touch and will never understand without me telling them why this is bad," and when this insight is coming from the guy who doesn't like anything, you should reassess.

I hate it when people say it, but if you don't like it, don't buy it. Then send SE a letter why your fifteen bucks plus forty bucks is more meaningful than the fifteen bucks times plus forty bucks times thousands of happy customers. They're a game company, sure, but they're still a company. Happy consumers consume. Unhappy ones weren't going to buy anyway, so why waste the effort?

Now, before my personal feelings on the Au Ra get supplied for me, I'll remind everyone I'm extremely meh on them and have no intention of rolling one. I don't care. Literally couldn't care less about how they look/act/are. Curious, sure. But I don't care.

Iex · **12-23-2014, 01:52 PM**

(12-23-2014, 01:28 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(12-23-2014, 01:18 PM)Iex Wrote: Something I said.

If you only rely on data then you're cut off from the human element. Feedback has to be taken into consideration because data doesn't have emotions, and more importantly it can't be considered prior to the fact.

Otherwise, why bother to seek out feedback for anything, really? Just put it out there! If it's not popular it sucks, right!?

Data can tell you how much, but it can't tell you why. That's why feedback's there.

Also, it's still not a nitpick regardless of what you think. I'd understand if the Au Ra were given to everyone regardless of whether they get the xpac or not but that's obviously not the case here. It's expansion content. I mean, they're also not giving us expanded Ishgard, and quite frankly the last thing I needed is more Ishgarde.

If you look at the feedback from this forum, main forums, commentary on gaming site articles, and other random sources it seems to be a bunch of both sides of "I like it" and "I don't like it." This situation is why the feedback is problematic. There is no general agreement or disagreement on the race other than it has caused mixed feelings.

Since that is the case, the developer really can onlyÂ go with what they want. If that turns out as it is now, that is what we will get. However, if you voice your opinion saying you would like a more beasty (for example) or pretty male (for another example) race that is all well in good, and perhaps the reaction will encourage the developers to risk a less data conforming race in the future, or maybe the race may flop who knows.

As for the given part, sorry to be the dick saying this: if you aren't going to buy the expansion, the content being created franklyÂ isn't for you. If you cannot find something in the preview (race classes... the ability to keep gearing your character) that you like, the expansion might not be something you should invest in. However, basically they are not 'rebuilding' the intro zones (WoW Cataclysm) and instead adding on top of the current content (WoW Burning Crusade).Â The mechanics of an MMO is that the world keeps growing otherwise people will stop playing; however, I HAVE DONE SO MUCH TO AVOID SAYING THIS... SE is still a business so they have to make money.

If you have a problem with paying for content that you might not enjoy in order to get content you do enjoy, you are really in the wrong type of game. I am paying for PVP content I have not even touched.

Edvyn · **12-23-2014, 01:56 PM**

i just hope that one of the machinist weapons is a gun called "The Problematic"

it would be a better use of the word than what I have seen in this thread

Zyrusticae · **12-23-2014, 02:46 PM**

Here's a poll: http://strawpoll.me/3247034

Thanks in advance for your time. Smile

(12-23-2014, 02:06 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote:
(12-23-2014, 01:55 AM)Zyrusticae Wrote: As long as the sample size is large enough we can extrapolate the general reception from there.

Even if a few hundred people all voiced their dislike for the race, that is still barely a fraction of the total number of people who either like the race and haven't spoken up, like the race and have spoken up, or just don't give a shit enough to comment one way or the other.

For the record, assuming there are actually 2 million subscribers (there aren't, but there's no point being a stickler on this), you only need about 384 people to have a confidence level of 95(+/-5)%. Hell, for 95(+/-10)% you only need 96 people. Not that difficult.

Hence, I am going to do a poll... the problem, of course, being that I can only get players who are enthusiasts and actually post about the game on forums, comment sections, etc., but then again that's not really relevant to whether or not you're interested in a particular race (I'd actually have reason to be concerned about this if we were talking about measuring the number of players doing Coil or something like that) so it shouldn't be too much of a concern.

(12-23-2014, 02:16 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: C.) If you are unhappy with all available options already existing, and also don't like the current race... why the hell are you playing this game?

I shouldn't need to point out that there is a range between 'completely dissatisfied to the point of disinterest' and 'jumping for joy'. For example, someone can really, really like the game's aesthetics in general and its content but only find that the racial options are 'adequate', which isn't enough to get them to quit but enough to get them to hope for a better option down the road. For such players seeing something like this can be really discouraging.

I, personally, am more concerned with general character creation suckiness (Why can't I mix and match facial features from different face types? Why is there no muscle slider for Miqo'te? Why are so many hairstyles gendered for male or female?) than I am with the race, but I still hold out hope that a new race could get me to ignore that suckiness. Obviously, the Au-Ra are not that race.

Also, 'voting with your wallet' is useless. There's a LOT of content in an expansion and not buying it because you disagree with one element out of dozens or hundreds does not make any rational sense whatsoever. Better to allay verbal feedback and maybe, possibly, somewhere down the line get someone to pay attention, yeah?

(12-23-2014, 01:19 PM)Edvyn Wrote: ITT: people who play pretend on internet video games claim to be worthwhile critics, game designers, cultural analysts or whatever delusion fits their particular argument

It is so, so, SO very hard to resist the urge to tell you off for making this utterly worthless post.

Instead I will simply point out that this post contributes nothing at all to the thread and you should really refrain from posting entirely if this is the extent of what you can do.

Aldotsk · **12-23-2014, 03:00 PM**

Quote:They should be beast race-like (mamool ja, goblins, qiqirn, etc.)

Â 1Â voteÂ (13%)

I laughed a bit whoever voted this.

Warren Castille · **12-23-2014, 03:10 PM**

It's fairly unsporting to call someone's post useless. If you don't like the content, don't pay any mind to it.

Do I have to frame my comment about SE monitoring metric data just like they always have in insults and buzzwords to get some attention to that fact?

Fine.

The neckbeard misognysists at SE need to stop being so problematically toxic and check their privilege when it comes to defining gender roles and identity in their new race. Monitoring metric player data for use in their census doesn't address the issues transethnic otherkin might face and their ableist attitudes towards the playerbase is toxic. And problematic.

There, that's gotta be BINGO for someone's card.

Gegenji · **12-23-2014, 03:14 PM**

(12-23-2014, 03:10 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: The neckbeard misognysists at SE need to stop being so problematically toxic and check their privilege when it comes to defining gender roles and identity in their new race. Monitoring metric player data for use in their census doesn't address the issues transethnic otherkin might face and their ableist attitudes towards the playerbase is toxic. And problematic.

I have no idea what you have just said but I feel I need to be offended by it, and loudly so.

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Thoughts on the Au Ra?

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