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Aduu Avagnar · **02-23-2015, 09:26 AM**

thing is, a debate should never make people feel uncomfortable.... and if you are uncomfortable about people discussing differing view points... I don't know how you get by in life.

that being said, when it moves from a debate to a more personal affair, I agree that it should be taken out of the LS.

a Heated Debate tends to be a good thing because it means people actually you know, care about it. And most debates tend not to be negative....

Kage · **02-23-2015, 09:28 AM**

I say all this not just because I've felt that negativity either.

I am 100% guilty of being in the "let's try to discuss this" crowd that I am pretty sure I became one of those negative factors in a much more chatty OOC linkshell. My own behavior led me to step back, take a breather, and decide that it wasn't conducive to a positive experience for everyone in the linkshell. As said before, these bigger linkshells are filled with people who would rather not see the pervasive kinds of negativity overwhelm what should be a positive place.

Edvyn · **02-23-2015, 09:29 AM**

(02-23-2015, 09:26 AM)Nako Wrote: thing is, a debate should never make people feel uncomfortable.... and if you are uncomfortable about people discussing differing view points... I don't know how you get by in life.

that being said, when it moves from a debate to a more personal affair, I agree that it should be taken out of the LS.

a Heated Debate tends to be a good thing because it means people actually you know, care about it. And most debates tend not to be negative....

debates can become a really big problem when people all swarm in and join the debate partway through, leaving a convoluted, bickering mess. i witnessed this once. it was horrible, they were just mass debating all over the place.

Ashren Dotharl · **02-23-2015, 10:58 AM**

(02-23-2015, 09:29 AM)Edvyn Wrote:
(02-23-2015, 09:26 AM)Nako Wrote: thing is, a debate should never make people feel uncomfortable.... and if you are uncomfortable about people discussing differing view points... I don't know how you get by in life.

that being said, when it moves from a debate to a more personal affair, I agree that it should be taken out of the LS.

a Heated Debate tends to be a good thing because it means people actually you know, care about it. And most debates tend not to be negative....
debates can become a really big problem when people all swarm in and join the debate partway through, leaving a convoluted, bickering mess. i witnessed this once. it was horrible, they were just mass debating all over the place.

That sounds like a sticky situation to get caught in the middle of. Talk about getting stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Khadan · **02-23-2015, 01:26 PM**

(02-23-2015, 08:45 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote: My personal opinion on the matter is that there is nothing wrong with people having a debate, even a heated one, in a public area such as a FC or a LS so long as the rules of said medium to not forbid it. The primary difference between a debate and an argument is that debates are a battle of the mind, while arguments are a battle of the heart. If you can keep a level head and not get overly offended then all good! For those who are easily prone to becoming butthurt, all I can say is you probably shouldn't be on the internet if a simple debate rustles your jimmies this much.

I generally agree with this sentiment though I might word it a bit more politely so it doesn't seem like I'm daring nerds to come at me bro or something (even if I AM!Â Evil

)

The only other thing I would like to point out, since I believe this is for the most part a civil debate in of itself thus far, is that the term 'negativity' in this context is not only arbitrary but entirely subjective. Excluding the extreme example of someone threatening to bodily harm the other over their internet words or just being overly hostile and needlessly aggressive. Things like ad hominem (attacking a person and/or their character) or tu quoque (hypocritically calling out a behavior you exhibit) are what we ascribe to these things and then sometimes there's just being a butthead. Anyone who's played League of Legends has probably experienced a bit of that =P

Verad · **02-23-2015, 03:03 PM**

The distinction between argument and debate is largely meaningless, save as a rhetorical move to ensure that the debater is doing the Right Kind of discussion, and the arguer is doing the Wrong Kind. Both are equally useless in terms of furthering the goal of improving one's ability to play pretend elves (a farcical goal if ever there was one).

In regards to the actual topic the goal is situational. Not all public fora are created equal. I run an LS for talking about roll-based systems. The rules explicitly say "Do not have the argument about which of the freeform, roll-based, or PvP methods of conflict resolution are the best methods." Not only is the argument incredibly tiresome after hearing it for years in various MMO RP communities, but it undermines the purpose of the LS, which is explicitly about the value of roll-based systems. So I would expect somebody who wants to have that discussion to have it elsewhere, the same way I would expect an Ul'dahn law-enforcement LS to get sick of arguments about how little authority group X Y or Z has, or a Seeker culture LS to get sick of people saying Keepers are best.

Those are easy examples, though, because they will likely have rules about this subject from the outset. But public fora can also have a tone that isn't enforced by any rule but social convention, yet nevertheless dictates what is and isn't acceptable behavior. If I join the Kawaii Sugoi Chat Fun-Time ^_^ and start having heavy discussions about Gridanian trade rights in the LS, people would be right to suggest I and my interlocutor take it elsewhere because they want to make silly jokes and spout memes, and vice-versa if somebody kept spamming image macros and gifs in an LS dedicated to scholarly examination of the setting through the lens of structuralist literary critique. The quality of the discussion has no bearing on its right to be in a particular public space.

If it comes down to it, 2 wins. Lore is not so important that it precludes all other discussions. It's a topic, the same as any other, and some LSes are not going to want to have it. Whether or not the discussion is a "debate" or an "argument" is besides the point.

SessionZero · **02-23-2015, 03:33 PM**

(02-23-2015, 03:03 PM)Verad Wrote: The distinction between argument and debate is largely meaningless, save as a rhetorical move to ensure that the debater is doing the Right Kind of discussion, and the arguer is doing the Wrong Kind. Both are equally useless in terms of furthering the goal of improving one's ability to play pretend elves (a farcical goal if ever there was one).

In regards to the actual topic the goal is situational. Not all public fora are created equal. I run an LS for talking about roll-based systems. The rules explicitly say "Do not have the argument about which of the freeform, roll-based, or PvP methods of conflict resolution are the best methods." Not only is the argument incredibly tiresome after hearing it for years in various MMO RP communities, but it undermines the purpose of the LS, which is explicitly about the value of roll-based systems. So I would expect somebody who wants to have that discussion to have it elsewhere, the same way I would expect an Ul'dahn law-enforcement LS to get sick of arguments about how little authority group X Y or Z has, or a Seeker culture LS to get sick of people saying Keepers are best.

Those are easy examples, though, because they will likely have rules about this subject from the outset. But public fora can also have a tone that isn't enforced by any rule but social convention, yet nevertheless dictates what is and isn't acceptable behavior. If I join the Kawaii Sugoi Chat Fun-Time ^_^ and start having heavy discussions about Gridanian trade rights in the LS, people would be right to suggest I and my interlocutor take it elsewhere because they want to make silly jokes and spout memes, and vice-versa if somebody kept spamming image macros and gifs in an LS dedicated to scholarly examination of the setting through the lens of structuralist literary critique. The quality of the discussion has no bearing on its right to be in a particular public space.

If it comes down to it, 2 wins. Lore is not so important that it precludes all other discussions. It's a topic, the same as any other, and some LSes are not going to want to have it. Whether or not the discussion is a "debate" or an "argument" is besides the point.

Dibs on being the first to actually make this LS.

Poll: Read the following, and choose an option You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Answer 1	17.50%	7	17.50%
Answer 2	37.50%	15	37.50%
A compromise between the two	45.00%	18	45.00%
Total		40 vote(s)	100%

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Debates are not arguments

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes