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Devereau · **03-01-2015, 03:35 PM**

(03-01-2015, 03:24 PM)Hihimi Wrote: Honestly? I still don't understand why this is even a discussion. People will play what they want to play, and very little will persuade or dissuade someone from playing a female if they want to play a female, or a male if they want to play a male. As there are no tangible benefits to playing a female toon, it is not any sort of problem, or even something to be noticed at all.Â

If anyone is butthurt about this, I apologize, but people will always play what makes them happy, and you can't force me to play more male or more female characters, no matter how the gender makeup of the server falls. I have no qualms about playing male characters-I have several-but for the record, encouraging people to play what they don't want to play for the sake of "Realism" is outright stupid, and never works.

I am more or less just guessing it's acting more as a personal opinion census than, say, a means of debate. An observation now giving way for others to state their preferences. I figure that is more than likely the case. Identifying with a character archetype tends to help people write more convincingly, and I think more or less some people don't like to deviate from that.Â

For example, just like in real life, I play a negligible, androgynous thing with a penchant for fashion and a queer balance of gender traits.Â

Or, as one might put, "masculine enough for a man, feminine enough for a woman."

Kellach Woods · **03-01-2015, 07:11 PM**

I don't think anyone is trying to make an argument that people should play to help balance out the server or something like that.

They're making an observation, one that in my case hasn't fallen on a deaf ear because I play anything and everything, and it's helped me determine that if I make an Au Ra alt we're gonna have some horny (geddit?) dudeness.

However, my whole "I'd delete my womens" thing? That was mostly a joke. I like Sasati's name too much and I just now fleshed out Sylvie - why would I delete them?

Elysia · **03-01-2015, 08:08 PM**

I think Fantasyland always provides a platform for creation of characters that subvert, play with or even flout gender conventions.Â This isÂ not to sayÂ that Eorzean society isn't gendered in the least (it is, terribly so).Â My point is that playersÂ shouldn't feel anxious (even though I've personally been guilty of it) about playing characters of a different gender because it's entirely possible to create lore-adherent, compelling, convincing characters that don't necessarily conform to gender codes.Â

That said, I'm also a female playing a female, because I've always been interested in fictional representations of women in fantasy.Â

So while we could use more male characters, I think RPers should just play what they're most comfortable with - or what they'd like to genuinely experiment with.Â Big Grin

Kellach Woods · **03-01-2015, 08:29 PM**

Hell, I'm trying to make a male maid outfit.

I'M DOING MY PART I THINK.

Arcian · **03-01-2015, 08:48 PM**

When I was young, I used to exclusively play male characters because I was uncomfortable with the flak I'd get for being a woman playing an MMO (my WoW server at the time was...not pleasant). I eventually grew out of that and started to appreciate the idea of female characters getting to do cool stuff, so now I've essentially flipped around since I play women exclusively.

I've never actually thought about it much before now.

At any rate, as far as I'm concerned, I'm not going to disapprove of anyone playing what they'd prefer/are comfortable with. Gaming is supposed to be fun, after all.

Flickering Ember · **03-02-2015, 02:28 PM**

More females than males? Well, the census would disagree with you and that is based on actual statistics. That is for the whole server of course, not just the RPer community. Still, all evidence we have on this is completely anecdotal and not indicative of how things actually are. I do believe I am usually in more scenes with more female characters so if the RP community really is dominated by women (doubt it) then *shrug*. Usually it's the other way around so if there is an imbalance I don't mind it. It's pretty sad if we think the norm is 'a number of male characters with a small smattering of female characters.'

My point is, you're rarely going to have an exact ratio of genders in RP scenes. In this sense, RP is more like RL. Unlike the movies and tv shows, there is never a perfectly corporate selected ratio of 3 guys and 2 gals to a scene. Sometimes I'm in all female groups. Sometimes I am the only female in a group. The genders of the characters I would like to think don't matter, only the quality of the character.

Zyrusticae · **03-02-2015, 03:25 PM**

(02-27-2015, 05:04 PM)Sastra Wrote: I have both a male and a female character, and I am a female irl. It's however more of a "recent" development to my RP, as previously I've always been like, me? Playing a male? Nooooope. Can't do that! Based on lack of knowledge on how guys work.Â
And I know a chunk of other female rpers who have felt the same way or even still do, where as it seems more common for men to play female characters.Â

I've actually wanted to make a post on this for the longest time, just haven't gotten around to it.

Frankly, I think it speaks to broader issues about societal notions of gender that this comes up so often. "I can't play [the opposite sex]! I don't understand them!" Well, you don't understand them because you're thinking of them as their sex or gender first, and not as people. That's really what it comes down to, really. I won't go more into this here, because it really deserves a thread of its own, but I've always thought this line of thinking to be profoundly silly, especially considering that fictional writing has a history of great stories written by people who are most definitely not the same sex as the principle characters.

(02-27-2015, 11:35 PM)Advent Wrote: And ima be honest. . . If I play females it's only so I can admire their bodies while I play.

Haven't on final fantasy because the women have no bodies, but I know I cant be the only one that's done this?

Edit: Just realized I never added to the informal census.

IRL I am an AMAB genderqueer individual, and I, unsurprisingly, tend to play genderqueer characters in games, but all of them are biologically female. They tend to range the gamut from the completely androgynous (T'rahnu) to the sickeningly sweet and effeminate, but I never, ever play a male character or a really macho, masculine character, though I do admit I would consider playing an Armstrong-style (FMAB) character for shits and giggles. I don't do alts, however, so that will probably never happen in FFXIV, at least.

The thing is that I tend to think of my characters in terms of what I would like to be, rather than simply characters in a play or a novel. It's probably a bad habit, but it's what I do, hence my characters tend heavily towards what I find attractive in that sense. Unlike a lot of folks, you can pretty much assume that, yes, I would want to be whoever I am playing as at the time, not just because I happen to like the look or whatever. That doesn't mean they're always going to be likeable, however. After all, I'm not that likeable myself. Wink

Bryn · **03-02-2015, 03:40 PM**

(03-02-2015, 03:25 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(02-27-2015, 05:04 PM)Sastra Wrote: I have both a male and a female character, and I am a female irl. It's however more of a "recent" development to my RP, as previously I've always been like, me? Playing a male? Nooooope. Can't do that! Based on lack of knowledge on how guys work.Â
And I know a chunk of other female rpers who have felt the same way or even still do, where as it seems more common for men to play female characters.Â
I've actually wanted to make a post on this for the longest time, just haven't gotten around to it.

Frankly, I think it speaks to broader issues about societal notions of gender that this comes up so often. "I can't play [the opposite sex]! I don't understand them!" Well, you don't understand them because you're thinking of them as their sex or gender first, and not as people. That's really what it comes down to, really. I won't go more into this here, because it really deserves a thread of its own, but I've always thought this line of thinking to be profoundly silly, especially considering that fictional writing has a history of great stories written by people who are most definitely not the same sex as the principle characters.

Superb post, and I agree. Perhaps this is a bit of an aside to the discussion, but it always annoys me when renowned male literary authors say in interviews that they 'can't write female characters'. How do you write a female character? How, for that matter, should you go about writing a male character? It really does reinforce that whole idea of Mars and Venus, and never the twain shall meet.

IvikBlack · **03-02-2015, 03:44 PM**

Every MMO community I've RPed in recently has had a gender imbalance skewed in favor of female characters. When I first noticed this in Wildstar I assumed there were more women OOC at first, but after awhile I started to notice a pattern and took some surveys. The end conclusion I came to is somewhat obvious: there are tons of men playing as lesbians (and bisexual women) as a kind of fantasy fulfillment.

Is this a problem? That discussion brings up a broad set of issues and there is no one answer to that question. It depends on your priorities. Where I'm coming from however, I have a pretty simple answer: yes. Putting it simply, and in the broadest terms possible, it's a kind of virtual 'blackface' problem but with a set of lesbian-queer identities.

Men fundamentally lack the real world experience to know what it's like to be a woman in a culture of restrictive gender norms AND heteronormativity. We live in a society where lesbians in pornography exist almost solely for non-demographic consumers (straight men). It results in a product which incorrectly characterizes those relationships on so many levels (sexual and otherwise). Scissoring, long nails, out-of-the-mouth tongue fondling; most men's exposure to lesbians is deeply inaccurate to the average picture. And of course the problems go far beyond sex.

Even when women are straight, the way men RP them is often ham-fisted and insulting. Popular depictions often have subtle sexist roots. For example, I've seen men RPing women have their characters act horrendously socially incompetent only to fall back on the horribly misogynistic "I was on my period" excuse.

None of this means female characters played by men HAVE to be badly done. Many aren't. But many are too, and I think that's something people need to hear and think about.

I know people will disagree with me. I know many will get defensive. I hope it was food for thought none the less.

Caspar · **03-02-2015, 03:56 PM**

I usually think of the character's background and the general impression visually I want them to have before deciding their sex. Sometimes it's almost a coin flip.

Granted, this is probably because I tend to favor certain plot or character motifs, and those motifs are pretty independent of being a particular sex. They can interact or be informed by it, but things like obligation, inability to conform, revenge, etc, don't stick to one or the other specifically. I can do this because my interests allow me to, and I can see how others might have story focuses that complicate things.

Originally when I picked up FFXIV though, I picked Lala because they're cute, but unlike Tera, I wouldn't get creeped on for being Elin. I wanted to play a female character, but I was aware that sort of thing would happen if I did. =_=

sforze · **03-02-2015, 04:05 PM**

I think the "people first" approach to writing women is good in theory, but rarely bears out very well in practice. It's somewhat the same approach as saying that you 'don't see color' -- gender and race matter very much and the society in which they're placed will yield different experiences, expected roles, and so forth. I think it's a very bad idea to cast those things aside and smooth it out as all people having equal experiences.

If you want to write convincingly for a different gender (or someone who is agender, genderqueer, etc.), it's important to REALLY pay attention to the societal context you're given. The XIV world in particular is rife with female leaders and politicians, but still has troupes of half-naked cat-girls dancing in the streets for cheering men. There are formidable female warriors and wizards, but women stuck in pirate caves swearing on "what little virtue they have left". It's a weird world where some vestiges of conservative values are maintained where in other situations, there are more progressive ideas that get teased out.

If wish fulfillment is what you're going for, I mean...feel free, play how you want, it's your free time and you can assume the risk, however slight, of insulting other people with an unintentionally offensive depiction (I've had guys playing women who tell me at length IC about how much they looOOOoove when men sexually harass them...) but if your aim is to write convincingly as a member of another gender, it's really important to consider it from a three-dimensional angle and consider staying far away from common stereotypes/tropes. Personally? When I get a whiff that someone's playing close to common (and often sexist) tropes, I lose a lot of respect and run very, very far away.

Caspar · **03-02-2015, 04:14 PM**

I was just responding in general, not specifically to your post. I usually do try to take into account the context of the setting when playing a character of a specific sex. For instance, it would not make sense for a character to assume they ought to be treated with equal rights if literally everything they were taught since birth devalued them, trying to teach them to consider themselves lower than the privileged group. Were they ever to come to the conclusion that was something they deserved, I'd have to rp events leading them to believe it first.

That being said, I tend to focus on conflicts that don't involve the questions you mentioned. Nor do I play a character as a form of wish fulfillment, if that's what you're insinuating. Not to put words in your mouth, of course, I just I can't remember the last time I've ever envied or wanted to be one of my characters; in fact, I usually can think of a dozen reasons why I'd avoid or actively dislike them if I knew them in reality. They're nothing more than a device through which I write a story; characters resemble people but are not.

IvikBlack · **03-02-2015, 04:20 PM**

I don't think Sforze was responding to your post at all Caspar (I'm not even sure if she read it first before replying). Your approach of thinking up traits then considering what's appropriate after is different than a "people are people" approach IMO.

Caspar · **03-02-2015, 04:24 PM**

(03-02-2015, 04:20 PM)Presidio Wrote: I don't think Sforze was responding to your post at all Caspar (I'm not even sure if she read it first before replying). Your approach of thinking up traits then considering what's appropriate after is different than a "people are people" approach IMO.

Oh, is that so? I considered it might be since I thought me saying the character's sex was a coin flip might give the misconception that I don't feel it has any significance in storytelling, or mine specifically anyway. It's just that I play male and female characters at a pretty random rate and don't strictly favor playing one sex over the other. I didn't want anyone to misunderstand me.

I'll admit I've sort of eavesdropped on some of the wish-fulfillment erp types that have been mentioned lately, and had a few laughs at their expense, but if one approached me with the level of rp sfvorze mentioned, rather than being amused, I would be very uncomfortable. I'd rather not interact with those sorts of players.

Zyrusticae · **03-02-2015, 04:25 PM**

(03-02-2015, 03:44 PM)Presidio Wrote: [...]
Men fundamentally lack the real world experience to know what it's like to be a woman in a culture of restrictive gender norms AND heteronormativity. [...]

Well, looks like this particular cat's out of the bag, so I guess I'll discuss it now anyways.

So, yeah, this is something I notice quite a bit as I grow older. Where I take the perspective of "what would my character logically and rationally conclude at this particularly moment in time, given the sum total of their experiences, knowledge, and emotional state?", a number of people transparently use their characters as vehicles for sexual wish-fulfillment. That on its own is not necessarily bad, but it does tend to get irritating when those same people defend some really sexist depictions (being vague here because, well, it's a lot of crap) purely because they happen to find those things appealing to their libido, while completely disregarding how the characters in question would actually do things. It's bad writing and it's bad RP, and it's really annoying running into it for the hundred thousandth time.

I should note here that I have absolutely no problem with depictions of sex and sexuality per se. It's when they completely break character (or even the laws of physics, in the case of boob and bikini armor) that I start to get irritated. It is, in fact, possible to depict sex-positive women in a fashion that is neither offensive nor tasteless. The problem is that it requires perspective and empathy, two things that are in very short supply these days, indeed. Most men, unfortunately, cannot even fathom how many social pressures women (and gay men, and transexuals, and the non-binary gendered like myself) suffer on a daily basis, just because it's so invisible to them. It makes trying to talk about these things an exercise in frustration more often than not.

(I should also note that it is possible to go too far in the other direction. One of the weirder ones I run into is people who go "ugh!" at the sight of a boob slider. It's weird. Like, being able to shrink or enlarge those puppies is somehow a bad thing? Does body diversity not exist in your universe? Do you not even want to acknowledge that variable breast size is a thing? I once read someone say they didn't like seeing them in trailers because it (paraphrased) 'shows how hard they're gunning for a particular target audience', but that doesn't even make any sense because, seriously, every single person who makes a female character is going to want a boob slider. (ESPECIALLY me, because I need to go as close to flat as I possibly can, dammit!))

*ahem*

I will note that there is one thing that really does make this a sort of bridge too far: men, in general, simply have stronger libidos than women. There are exceptions (and a lot of them) on both sides of the isle, but the supply-demand imbalance should be completely obvious to anyone who is a living adult on planet Earth. Thanks to some rather backwards societal pressures and concerns about STDs (and pregnancy to a lesser extent, but birth control availability is pretty good nowadays), those sex-positive women who are okay with this situation can never truly make up for the large number of women who, well, are not. Because of this rather unfortunate fact of life, it is to be assumed that there will always be at least a bit of a skew towards appealing to male libidos at the expense of women.

But that doesn't mean I have to accept bad writing, or bad character design, or any of that. It just means I say 'oh, okay' and move on with my life when I run into it, and maybe complain about it later when I'm feeling ornery. Which, admittedly, is a lot of the time. Sorry. Runs in the family.

tl;dr: Yeah, it happens, and it sucks when it does (which is really, REALLY often), because it shows those guys just can't put themselves in the shoes of their own characters and instead just want to get off. Which is fine, just, you know, it's just bad writing. And we get to call 'em out for it.

(03-02-2015, 04:05 PM)sforze Wrote:

Show Content

Spoiler'd for length
I think the "people first" approach to writing women is good in theory, but rarely bears out very well in practice. It's somewhat the same approach as saying that you 'don't see color' -- gender and race matter very much and the society in which they're placed will yield different experiences, expected roles, and so forth. I think it's a very bad idea to cast those things aside and smooth it out as all people having equal experiences.

If you want to write convincingly for a different gender (or someone who is agender, genderqueer, etc.), it's important to REALLY pay attention to the societal context you're given. The XIV world in particular is rife with female leaders and politicians, but still has troupes of half-naked cat-girls dancing in the streets for cheering men. There are formidable female warriors and wizards, but women stuck in pirate caves swearing on "what little virtue they have left". It's a weird world where some vestiges of conservative values are maintained where in other situations, there are more progressive ideas that get teased out.

If wish fulfillment is what you're going for, I mean...feel free, play how you want, it's your free time and you can assume the risk, however slight, of insulting other people with an unintentionally offensive depiction (I've had guys playing women who tell me at length IC about how much they looOOOoove when men sexually harass them...) but if your aim is to write convincingly as a member of another gender, it's really important to consider it from a three-dimensional angle and consider staying far away from common stereotypes/tropes. Personally? When I get a whiff that someone's playing close to common (and often sexist) tropes, I lose a lot of respect and run very, very far away.

I should note that by saying 'people first' I don't mean throwing gender out entirely - I mean, naturally, treating gender as something that informs how a character behaves and sees the world, rather than basing their entire character based off of sex-based stereotypes. That's all.

(I should also note that most of these people probably don't even realize that gender exists on a spectrum, rather than a binary, which complicates the argument somewhat.)

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Female to Male Ratio

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