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Liandri · **03-21-2015, 02:49 PM**

Chiming in as a resident villain!

It's all subjective, some people think villains shouldn't be this, or shouldn't be that.
I find the scariest villains to be that ones that can be related to, in some form or fashion. It brings the whole sense of blurred lines into the forefront of characters, and their development.

There's not a right way, or a wrong way. But villains that have literally no reason for their motivations or goals, just elude me completely. I need a reason -why- people act a certain way, which, granted could be down to my education as a sociologist.

As for the whole ERP thing? Literally every other 'villain' I have encountered, or fellow strange individuals aren't like that. I think it's down to luck of the draw, and who you find yourself interacting with. You can't judge an entire group of roleplayers on one or two interactions, it's just entirely unfair.

I won't divulge the details of my character, or why she's necessarily villainous, as I believe my RPC reflects that, and I've noticed people could care less. I just believe there's reason behind most things, as far as logic goes - though I'm not dismissing another's views entirely, it's a matter of opinion, and what one prefers to see/read.

Ette · **03-21-2015, 03:05 PM**

As someone who played almost exclusively villains or at least very dark grey characters for a while I would liiiiiike to add in my two cents:

Know who youâ€™re writing with. Know the characters theyâ€™ll be put up against. Know the story youâ€™re trying to tell.

Villain is, more or less, my favorite archetype to RP. Iâ€™ve been trying to switch it up into â€œusually well meaningâ€ and â€œmorally forgettableâ€ with my latest characters. However, Iâ€™ve played PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING across the villain board from â€œdestitute teenage girl trying very hard to win the approval of murdersâ€ to â€œcult leader orchestrating the death of thousandsâ€.

I absolutely loved playing both. And other people found that working with and against them was fun, too! Both served their purpose in regards to what I wanted to write and both fit the narrative myself and others wanted to tell. I canâ€™t say one was objectively better or worse than the other. In fact, if I were to switch their places they would have likely failed miserably as characters.

Arelian · **03-21-2015, 03:21 PM**

Time for my two cents! I've been playing morally ambiguous characters for almost the entirety of my roleplay "career" and I've come across a few very salient points when trying to be a villain.

A villain exists to act as a foil to a protagonist of some kind. Be it society, a group of individuals, or a sole individual. Â As such, the character is typically crafted with these things in mind. Without something to serve as a balancing force, a villain character is--quite simply--a bad person.Â

There's a world of difference between playing a bad person and playing a villain and there's absolutely nothing wrong with playing a terrible person.Â But it's always important to know the difference.

This goes into Ette's point of knowing who you're writing with. The actual-factualness of being a villain is usually determined by the plot you're participating in and as such there's no wrongÂ way to play a villain. If the story is centered around sexual abuse and assault, alright. That's what the villain will likely be about. But if the story isn't going to involve that content, you're an asshole for turning it into that and even bringing it up.

HOWEVER.

There are definitely things that cause a side-eye or a bitter laugh from my angle when I see things like the stupid sexy torturer and it's ilk. Usually because it's not being portrayed in a context-appropriate plot.

If you aren't trying to tell a story with your bad-person-wannabe-villain and instead opt to have them be a general nuisance and terrible person, make sure that's alright with the people you'll be getting them involved with. Never surprise people with content they might not be comfortable with, that's just rude.Â

My overall point is a simple one and I'm just a wordy bastard, though. A good villain is defined by the plot and the context surrounding that villain. The only wrong way to play a villain is to remove it from that context or play it in an environment where it's context is no longer appropriate.

Meena · **03-21-2015, 04:46 PM**

I will point out my observed experiences with roleplaying a Villain.

The issues stemming from the villain side in FFXIV is that everyone I and my friends have roleplayed withÂ - being it in kidnapping, torture etc has never accepted to letting anything bad happen to their character.

it is -very- difficult to be a villain when people are not willing to deal with the consequences of being a target but expect you to be subjected to their point of view. Hence why the whole 'rape, torture' thing exists, you might see that more often than not due to the constraints on most players.

For example when A few friends of mine were interrogating a law enforcement character they refused to let maiming, damage - psychologicla or physical mark their character in a permanent way.

The street goes both ways, and for villains? because we are the bad guy - people want us to lose no matter what.

Loki · **03-21-2015, 05:15 PM**

(03-21-2015, 04:46 PM)Meena Wrote: I will point out my observed experiences with roleplaying a Villain.

The issues stemming from the villain side in FFXIV is that everyone I and my friends have roleplayed withÂ - being it in kidnapping, torture etc has never accepted to letting anything bad happen to their character.

it is -very- difficult to be a villain when people are not willing to deal with the consequences of being a target but expect you to be subjected to their point of view. Hence why the whole 'rape, torture' thing exists, you might see that more often than not due to the constraints on most players.

For example when A few friends of mine were interrogating a law enforcement character they refused to let maiming, damage - psychologicla or physical mark their character in a permanent way.

The street goes both ways, and for villains? because we are the bad guy - people want us to lose no matter what.

This right here. This makes it extremely difficult to play Villains in an MMO. It's exceedingly rare to find a group that will allow traumatic experiences or physical damage be dealt to them by a villain-like player.Â

I do think there is a limit that needs to be drawn on what can and cannot be done to a players character and what those people are comfortable with happening to their characters. An agreement and understanding of potential consequences should be listed before a dark or villain associated character becomes involved in a plot and it should definitely be discussed among the group as a whole before a specific plot is underway.

Communication with other players is a big key in playing a single Villain among a group of Heroes. Villain's need to say what can and cannot be done to their characters and vice-verse for those playing the Hero(es) before any serious plot delving begins. This can be done without divulging too much into weakness' and strengths and past history, giving room to develop both sides in an in character progression.

There needs to be equal progression on both sides with renewed ongoing conflict whether on a personal or combative level for both to succeed. No side can be deemed the victor in any given confrontation in order to have a successful ongoing plot until it does get to the point where the person playing the Villain deems it necessary for the end to come.

Arelian · **03-21-2015, 06:04 PM**

(03-21-2015, 05:15 PM)Ravij Wrote:
(03-21-2015, 04:46 PM)Meena Wrote: I will point out my observed experiences with roleplaying a Villain.

The issues stemming from the villain side in FFXIV is that everyone I and my friends have roleplayed withÂ - being it in kidnapping, torture etc has never accepted to letting anything bad happen to their character.

it is -very- difficult to be a villain when people are not willing to deal with the consequences of being a target but expect you to be subjected to their point of view. Hence why the whole 'rape, torture' thing exists, you might see that more often than not due to the constraints on most players.

For example when A few friends of mine were interrogating a law enforcement character they refused to let maiming, damage - psychologicla or physical mark their character in a permanent way.

The street goes both ways, and for villains? because we are the bad guy - people want us to lose no matter what.

This right here. This makes it extremely difficult to play Villains in an MMO. It's exceedingly rare to find a group that will allow traumatic experiences or physical damage be dealt to them by a villain-like player.Â

I do think there is a limit that needs to be drawn on what can and cannot be done to a players character and what those people are comfortable with happening to their characters. An agreement and understanding of potential consequences should be listed before a dark or villain associated character becomes involved in a plot and it should definitely be discussed among the group as a whole before a specific plot is underway.

Communication with other players is a big key in playing a single Villain among a group of Heroes. Villain's need to say what can and cannot be done to their characters and vice-verse for those playing the Hero(es) before any serious plot delving begins. This can be done without divulging too much into weakness' and strengths and past history, giving room to develop both sides in an in character progression.

There needs to be equal progression on both sides with renewed ongoing conflict whether on a personal or combative level for both to succeed. No side can be deemed the victor in any given confrontation in order to have a successful ongoing plot until it does get to the point where the person playing the Villain deems it necessary for the end to come.

I agree with this -- to a degree. Communication is vital (shocking, I know) but I've never actually run into a problem with certain players outright refusing to let anything happen to their characters. It's possibly because I just flat out won't have anything to do with a character that doesn't 100% accept "IC actions = IC consequences." At least not on an antagonistic level. I mean, shit. My main guild back in GW2 had a problem where people were tooÂ eager to have dire shit done to their characters. I'm talking like, any time we had villain NPCs crop up people were losing limbs left and right. It was great.

Like if I'm planning a plot with someone while I'm working the antagonist front, I put possible outcomes out there immediately. As in: Your character may be subject to <x> and <y> but absolutely never <z>. If you are uncomfortable with any of these, please tell me now.Â

9 times out of 10 they've told me what is and is not acceptable right then and there. If they go back on it? Well, you simply let everyone know that the player is going back on what they agreed upon and never associate with them again.

A general rule of thumb is that you can't, or it's very hard, to play a good villain character without an absurd amount of communication done beforehand. Don't expect random Law Enforcer from the bar or the streets to be down with what you're doing. If you need to, don't do your shit in a place where they can see it. If it comes down to it and they still show up, send a message asking them to step away from it. If they still refuse, black list the jerk.Â

Basically, you need to be assertive as hell to play a good antagonist-type character. You've gotta have rules for people to go along with. You've also gotta be flexible because everyone has those same rules. Respect!

Kasumi Gakunin · **03-21-2015, 11:47 PM**

Personally I no issue most of the time rping with villain, especially since my characters less then a saint herself. Since I started rping with Lacey she's played both sides of the fence, a hero and a villain, or a villain whose worked for another villain. Nearly every interaction as a villain or Lacey being attacked by a villain/enemy has ended in some sort of delicious character development for my character (and sometimes their's as well) which I find thoroughly enjoyable. I do get that there is a stigma though. I've had a few bad interactions with players taking ooc thing icly which results in me quirking an eyebrow a bit. I generally back off after that because if someone can't see the line between ic and ooc they aren't worth rping with since I abhor real life dramatics. 9/10 though it's been a great damn time for all of us and we've had a good relationship ooc.Â
I have noted though that a lot of role players aren't comfortable with horrible things happening to their character. When Lacey was violently attacked last year, resulting in some temporarily brain damage, by her former employer I had more then one rper contact me and ask me if I was okay with it or why I let it happen? Why'd I let it happen? Months of good character development, my friend. Why wouldn't I? My character turned over a new leaf after that and decided it wasn't wise to work for those sort of people anymore. She got into a long last romantic relationship and started on the road to redemption and trying to be a better person because of it. It was damn interesting.Â
I think establishing boundaries are important though before delving into any darker rp. While I've never let Lacey personally torture anyone, I'm aware that not everyone is comfortable with that. And as for rape...I just...no. That's just something I'd walk away from cause it crosses a personal line for me. I think such things are important to discuss before delving into them ic. Everyone has different boundaries and I think as a rper they should be respected. You never really know the personal history of the rper and how you may trigger any real life trauma's.

ArmachiA · **03-21-2015, 11:54 PM**

Everytime my FC does a heavy villian storyline, I always do a consent thread - where if they sign it they agree to be hurt, but with certain caviats
(You can see our current consent thread for the Voidsent storyline we're doing here: http://nightblades.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2067992)
This kind of makes players more comfortable since the guidelines are laid out for them and, while some people choose to stay away, a lot end up signing up.

But it is an issue with Villains, the fact not a lot of people want to have their characters hurt. Or - my biggest problem - wanting to beat the villain within the first WEEK of the storyline. T_T How are they villains if they get destroyed by you immediately?

Tiergan · **03-22-2015, 03:37 AM**

^ I don't play any villains (at least not yet), but I find it insanely boring of you have a villain only for him or her to get mopped up within a few days of their appearance. Then again, I really like long drawn-out conflict.

I can also both agree and disagree with Verad. Villains where you can't understand their motivations at all from any angle can be TERRIFYING - which is why Cthulhu-type monsters and villains are freaky and horrifying as heck. When you can't reason with something or even begin to see through its eyes, it can be incredibly scary and throws things a little off-balance (in a good way). Villains in a friend's RP story are very cthulhu-mythos-like in nature and it gives the RP a very intense, horror-based feel where the villains feel overwhelming.

However, I'm also a huge sucker for Villains you can kind of relate to/identify with just because it can create a huge glorious emotional conflict for both readers (if we're talking about a book) and characters (if we're talking RP) to face a villain where they obviously need to be stopped, but you can relate to them or understand them. That conflict might come from either the fact that you get why they're doing what they're doing and a part of you wishes you didn't have to face off against them at all OR conflict might come from the fact that you can identify with what they're doing and it freaks you out that you can identify with a crazy horrible villainous person int he first place.

Sometimes it can be interesting to have a story where the villain is essentially a mirror to yourself, save for a few minor details that set them on a different course.

I guess it's all in what sort of narrative you're going for.

Caspar · **03-22-2015, 06:29 AM**

I'm just really fond of the villains of circumstance, who are more or less forced into the antagonist role by conflicting interests or changing political/social situations, or were born into an environment where no other option was possible. A character who has no motive is also fun, but at times I like the more original take on it; where the character recognizes being moral is impossible for him, like, aware of his own psychopathy.

ArmachiA · **03-22-2015, 08:08 AM**

I kind of have a soft spot for Comic Book Esque Villains. Like... in Injustice: Gods Among Us when Joker has Superman kill Lois Lane by using a mix of Kryponite and the Scarecrows fear gas making Superman believe she was Doomsday. Oh, by the way, she was pregnant.

It's just... deliciously over-the-top and effectual that in a world where SUPERMAN exists, the Joker can still effect his overpowered ass just by being incredibly wiley.

The Joker is a mystery himself in a lot of ways... but even then his motives have some kind of internal logic. His internal logic is everything is a game, and when the Joker does something, it never feels out of character.

I mean he explains his entire motive as to why he did it: Because he kept losing to Batman and Superman was an easy target. (Though actually his real motive was to get Sups to kill him to prove that ANYONE is corruptable. And that worked!)

That's it. Amazing.

(Shout out to Injustice's Harley Quinn - who owns bones)

I know that kind of villain can't work in a lot of settings. But that over the top kind of drama is definitely a guilty pleasure of mine.

Magellan · **03-22-2015, 08:51 AM**

(03-21-2015, 04:46 PM)Meena Wrote: I will point out my observed experiences with roleplaying a Villain.

The issues stemming from the villain side in FFXIV is that everyone I and my friends have roleplayed withÂ - being it in kidnapping, torture etc has never accepted to letting anything bad happen to their character.

it is -very- difficult to be a villain when people are not willing to deal with the consequences of being a target but expect you to be subjected to their point of view. Hence why the whole 'rape, torture' thing exists, you might see that more often than not due to the constraints on most players.

For example when A few friends of mine were interrogating a law enforcement character they refused to let maiming, damage - psychologicla or physical mark their character in a permanent way.

The street goes both ways, and for villains? because we are the bad guy - people want us to lose no matter what.

I am one of those people who would be extremely hesitant to let anything bad happen to my character... in the hands of others. Why? Well maybe I'm a control freak. If I wanted to play a psychologically damaged person because of rape/torture/insert reason here, because I thought it would be interesting or fun to explore, then I would have rolled them that way, or contacted a villain character from the outset to plan a storyline.

If, however, I rolled an everyday person trying to overcome their past of slavery (just as an example) then I npc everything, and put it into their backstory. That way I can control what happened, how bad it was, and how it helped shape them into the person they are today. I am not interested in exploring themes of heavy, current, psychological trauma on this character, and in fact, to do so, would ruin my enjoyment of playing the character.

And thats a tricky thing in MMOs. I've had characters become broken, become uninteresting to play.... and just lose all their IC enjoyment due to interactions with others. Yet you've already put ALL this time into them OOCly... so now what? It can lead to frustration and burnout.

Typically, I don't get involved in villainous plots because it feels one of the two sides is going to leave feeling frustrated, and i'd not like to feel responsible for breaking someones character, just as I hope they wouldn't try to ruin the enjoyment I derive from playing mine.

Tl;dr: sometimes its just better to npc your characters antagonist (whether that antagonist be hero or villain) as a means of achieving your chracters goals, as pc vs pc clashes can create the bad kind of drama.

cuideag · **03-22-2015, 08:52 AM**

(03-22-2015, 06:29 AM)Caspar Wrote: I'm just really fond of the villains of circumstance, who are more or less forced into the antagonist role by conflicting interests or changing political/social situations, or were born into an environment where no other option was possible. A character who has no motive is also fun, but at times I like the more original take on it; where the character recognizes being moral is impossible for him, like, aware of his own psychopathy.

Bold/repost because that's basically my stance right there, and that is how I play my Not-Quite-Villain. Likewise, characters who fall into the "hero in my own story, villain in another's" is 100% my aesthetic.

Qhora Bajihri · **03-22-2015, 02:52 PM**

When I've played more heavy-handed villains, I've always said from the outset that as a villain, my entire purpose was to lose. I had to look like I was about to have the upper hand, then have it taken away from me, in order to define the hero as the hero and my character as the villain. My character winning player-to-player encounters with "hero" types twisted the order of things and weirded me out. It just wasn't right. Now because it was an MMO, it ended up getting all convoluted and weird but originally, the intent was always to be the "loser," as it were.

Granted, that character was also the "I'll get you next time, Gadget!" type who was always ready to concoct another scheme with a semblance of seriousness, but me as player always setting him up for the fail. He never died, and never lost permanently, but constant losing was part of his joie de vivre.

Qhora fits more into the "more evil than a villain" category. She's the hero of her own little tale, but she very much sees how broken she is in everyone else's reflections, so she calls herself the bad guy without having that loss-seeking behavior my more archetypal characters had.

There's such a rainbow of villainous options available. No reason to be restrictive.

Ludo · **03-22-2015, 11:05 PM**

I'm still reading what everybody has to say, and don't yet have anything to contribute to the topic that hasn't been mentioned already. But, as someone who has been struggling to find a way to roleplay their villain character that feels right, I do want to thank you all. Something I would like to learn more about is how to better play as a villain. I have a pretty good idea about my character; where they come from, what motivates them, why they are the way they are, but when it comes to participating in events and the like I often feel like I'm being inconsistent. How obvious should my sinister personality be? What should the ratio be between faux civility and abrasiveness? How do I keep the character interesting? I want the character to be a "bad" person but maybe I don't want that to be their defining characteristic. Â These are the kinds of questions I struggle with, though I know the answer will be different depending on the character, and the person playing them.

Poll: Do you have a character(s) who are Villains/Evil? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Yes.	67.39%	31	67.39%
No.	32.61%	15	32.61%
Total		46 vote(s)	100%

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The Tropes of Playing a Villain in FFXIV

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes