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Cato · **03-26-2015, 11:08 AM**

As much as I'd love for this sort of project to launch without any issues I do feel as though much of the concerns being put forward are very justified. People need to remember that many of us have invested in more than one MMO and have seen rot set in across many MMO's as these 'community' projects have kicked off only to end up as a circle-jerk for the same group of role-players to gain more and more influence.

It's also very easy for people to lace their words with sugar and claim that everything will be fine. To be blunt, I'm very much of the firm belief that whilst the RPC is a useful tool it is often just one big echo chamber for the same group of vocal individuals to fawn over each other, make plans and pretty much ignore anybody not in their immediate social circle or who isn't one of the 'cool kids'.

It's something I've touched upon before, yet I can't help but feel unease when the same people promising an open mind, honesty and clarity are the same individuals who give anyone not in their little group the cold shoulder when approached in-game.

So, yes - hopefully it does end up working out for the best! I'd really like to see something like this work out well for a change. It, sadly, always seems to be the same story though - people claiming that they're the exception to the rule and that everything will go off without a hitch only for the same mistakes to be directly or indirectly made over and over again.

Still, at the end of the day all we can really do is wait and see what happens. If and when things go south hopefully the situation will be able to be resolved peacefully. If, however, things go well - that'll be great! I just hope that in that scenario people won't let it get to their head and will continue to listen to feedback and be transparent.

Zhavi · **03-26-2015, 11:44 AM**

After this first one, moving forward, I would encourage there to be some sort of outreach arm of the summit to pick up FCs in game who do not visit the RPC, or FCs on the RPC who are quiet but rp intensive.

I think it's just one of those human things where people get comfortable and, in getting comfortable, become reluctant to put themselves back into a position of possible discomfort (because keeping things fresh and making sure your collection is constantly checking for new blood and keeping that new blood feeling welcome is a job that takes time and effort and includes missteps).

I don't think it's a matter of bad intentions or whatnot -- but with this sort of thing everyone has to keep an open mind and be willing to accept and consider ideas outside of the insular community. It's easy to forget to take a step back and consider "outsider" opinions when you already have a working group that harmonizes well -- but it is necessary to keep from splitting into camps who are pro or anti summit, y'know?

***Maril*** · **03-26-2015, 11:47 AM**

(03-26-2015, 11:08 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: As much as I'd love for this sort of project to launch without any issues I do feel as though much of the concerns being put forward are very justified. People need to remember that many of us have invested in more than one MMO and have seen rot set in across many MMO's as these 'community' projects have kicked off only to end up as a circle-jerk for the same group of role-players to gain more and more influence.

It's also very easy for people to lace their words with sugar and claim that everything will be fine. To be blunt, I'm very much of the firm belief that whilst the RPC is a useful tool it is often just one big echo chamber for the same group of vocal individuals to fawn over each other, make plans and pretty much ignore anybody not in their immediate social circle or who isn't one of the 'cool kids'.

It's something I've touched upon before, yet I can't help but feel unease when the same people promising an open mind, honesty and clarity are the same individuals who give anyone not in their little group the cold shoulder when approached in-game.

So, yes - hopefully it does end up working out for the best! I'd really like to see something like this work out well for a change. It, sadly, always seems to be the same story though - people claiming that they're the exception to the rule and that everything will go off without a hitch only for the same mistakes to be directly or indirectly made over and over again.

Still, at the end of the day all we can really do is wait and see what happens. If and when things go south hopefully the situation will be able to be resolved peacefully. If, however, things go well - that'll be great! I just hope that in that scenario people won't let it get to their head and will continue to listen to feedback and be transparent.

I think the main point is that we've got to try. There's always going to be cliques and popularity contests in RP communities, just as much as there's always going to be drama in roleplay. I was and I still am skeptic when I signed up for this - I don't consider myself to be much of an anyone around here and you're absolutely right, it could just devolve into a continued circlejerk between a specific group of friends where no one else really gets to say anything (or gets heard). However I don't think that it would get too far in this community, just as much as there are cliques there's also people who don't particularly give any bothers about the cliques and at the end of the day, you can only influence the people who want to be influenced. I was in some community styled leadership meetings in GW2 a /long/ time ago (like, around the start) and to give an example, claim issues were one of the hot topics we were debating but could not solve because we did not have complete participation. Specifically, the guilds that when out and aggressively claimed buildings/places didn't show up to these meetings and didn't want to listen to the talk about how you can't just declare no one else can RP in a place you've decided is your characters house/secret base/experimental genetics lab. So the situations was, to my knowledge at least, never really solved.

Community is unfortunately the key to a lot of things when it comes to RP, I've always said that proper communication could solve at least half of the conflicts that arise between people (especially in fight-related drama) and honestly I'd be far more concerned if no one was interested in talking to each other because they already have their stuff, their FC and their social circle. The sort of everything is fine for me so why should I think about the rest of the community line of thinking. The reason why I use the word unfortunately, is because it can be very difficult to communicate with people or groups for various reasons. Which is also why I am hoping that as many people who are interested will watch the stream of the meeting. So it wont just be the ones attending who's getting a clear image of what is going on.Â

My biggest hope for all of this is that we get to make even more good events and, maybe even get some people on the floor that haven't done serverwide stuff before but with the aid/support of other FC's could feel confident enough to do one. It's both a frightening and a daunting task to run larger events that are open to everyone and their grandmother, and the community as a whole can't keep relying on the same people to keep on making them, as that'll just result in burnouts.Â

If we don't try something nothing will get better, and then it could still get worse over time.

Verad · **03-26-2015, 12:36 PM**

(03-26-2015, 11:47 AM)Sastra Wrote: If we don't try something nothing will get better, and then it could still get worse over time.

Why do things need to get better? What is the problem that is preventing things from getting better, and what does better look like? What is the evidence of this problem?

FreelanceWizard · **03-26-2015, 12:58 PM**

It's always been my position that there's no way for these sorts of events to turn into a community-dominating "meta-clique," since there's simply far too many approaches to RP in our side of the community (which isn't even the entire RP community) for anyone to come to some sort of consensus position. From Succor to the ICness of adventuring, from the average power level of a character to whether you could live in Revenant's Toll, there's such a wide variety of opinions that you'd be hard-pressed to even write a plot in which everyone could participate.

I guess what I'm hoping comes out of this meeting is a greater awareness of FCs of each other and some connections and contacts that they can use on their own to drive RP for their membership. That's why I agreed to help out -- it certainly wasn't with the thought of coming up with a server-wide metaplot or anything like that.

Melodia · **03-26-2015, 01:11 PM**

*Raises hand and blushes*

Uhm...so Zhavi and I were chatting, and maybe a lot of this could be resolved with a subforum for FC's to discuss their rp, advertise, and network..sort of ongoing...?

That would allow smaller FCs to interact and set up events, and not limit it to just this big event....I mean, I know my FC is going but it's clear some people are not comfortable with this, and I think it's not good to just dismiss their concerns.

Just a thought.... Blush

***Alothia*** · **03-26-2015, 01:13 PM**

Honestly, as far as I'm concerned, the RP community now is much better than it was back when I remember having summits before. You want to talk about a community that was polarizing and at each other's throats. Oi.

Look, I know I'm not a speaker, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to sit back and let stuff go down that I think is going to be damaging to the community as a whole. I like to think that I don't really have a clique here, and that I'm pretty open to dealing with everyone. I know how to keep a cool head as a mod, and I'll help make sure that things don't go awry during the meeting as well, even if I'm just a participant. Â I also don't think that Freelance is going to let people steamroll the conversation or any of that either. He's there to represent his FC first and foremost, but if you want to entrust someone like him to be a Speaker, you have to trust in his ability to maintain a level head during discussion as well.

All of this speculating what is going to go wrong during the meeting is a mute point right now. We don't know how it's going to go. This is a completely new dynamic from the one that we had back in 1.0, so it's going to be different.

All that we ask is that you have some faith in the people of this community.Â

This game and community wouldn't have lasted as long as it has if it were comprised entirely of drama mongers. Believe you me, I've been on RP hubs where that happens ALL THE TIME. Sure, discussions here turn heated, and people lose it a little bit, but we all overcome it and get over it pretty quickly.

I don't know, I feel like I'm probably just ranting now, but there's no sense in being overly pessimistic about the whole event already.

***Alothia*** · **03-26-2015, 01:16 PM**

(03-26-2015, 01:11 PM)Melodia Wrote: *Raises hand and blushes*

Uhm...so Zhavi and I were chatting, and maybe a lot of this could be resolved with a subforum for FC's to discuss their rp, advertise, and network..sort of ongoing...?

That would allow smaller FCs to interact and set up events, and not limit it to just this big event....I mean, I know my FC is going but it's clear some people are not comfortable with this, and I think it's not good to just dismiss their concerns.

Just a thought....

That's really what the event forum is for. If people want to discuss plots and potential ideas, that's the perfect place to do it. I know that there are numerous threads in there where people have pitched ideas and gotten other FCs to pitch in. Just label it as [Interest Check] or [Collaboration] so we can be aware of what the thread is for.Â

If that doesn't work out, we can always look at perhaps making another subforum, but it might clutter up the front page some more. That would be up to Freelance.

Melodia · **03-26-2015, 01:26 PM**

I just think, maybe on more efficient and productive level, a hard subforum titled something like "Free Company and RP Marketplace" or something along those lines, with threads inside like "FC RP Current Events" or "Classifieds" for attracting potential rp'ers who aren't in FCs but want to participate....it feels a bit more long term than just the summit.

I think leaving the random posts and threads for interest checks and such get lost in the shuffle.

Melkire · **03-26-2015, 01:59 PM**

Having had discussions elsewhere already with Verad and others who share similar concerns, I find it understandable that folks are apprehensive, pessimistic, negative, etc., especially when so much of the language surrounding this event perpetuates the feeling that there is an agenda to this event beyond a simple get-together.

Before anyone starts on about how "there is no agenda," allow me to define what I, personally, mean by that word:

The organizers and several key attendees have proposed, explicitly or otherwise, that they have identified a number of supposed issues and that they are seeking to effect change by congregating and coming to a consensus on how to approach these "problems".

Hopefully no one disagrees with this notion, since I can openly quote the original post to debunk any naysayers:

(03-17-2015, 04:20 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: The goal of this Summit is to bring together active Free Companies of Balmung to meet, interact, story plan, settle issues, and foster cooperation with other FCs for larger activities (raids, airship building, exc). As the FCs and housing areas took hold, our once mixed server has begun to retreat into itself. More and more rp is being done and planned by FCs only and restricted often times to the housing areas. This Summit will seek to change all that. This is an effort to bring the server together, so help me do that.

This, in my opinion, is a valid cause for concern, since it amounts to a communal straw-man. "We have an issue." (What's this "we"?) "This is a problem." (Says who?) "We need to do something about this." (Why?) "Let's meet up and do something about this." The contention on the part of the concerned is that these are perceived issues, not real issues.

A quick look at the one explicitly mentioned perceived issue:

Lack of Spontaneous Open-World RP

This is the idealist's dream: to walk into any corner of the open world and stumble across folks roleplaying there. The MMO is suddenly an open, breathing world.

I used to think this was an issue with Balmung. I know from hearsay that it's a bit of an issue with Gilgamesh, but that owes itself more to a small population of roleplayers. Why did I used to think Balmung had this issue? Because what little amount of time I wasn't spending on PvE, I was spending roleplaying in the Quicksand and in the housing districts.

If you're a groundhog, and you spend all winter in your hole, and you peek outside for a single day during that winter, and you don't see any activity and decide to retreat back into your hole, that doesn't mean that there's nothing going on outside. That doesn't mean that there aren't other groundhogs out there. It just means that you have a skewed perspective. You have a problem, i.e. restricting your roleplay to certain areas because you assume, based on a few halfhearted glances, that there is no roleplay elsewhere. And because you have this problem, you assume everyone else has this problem.

In my time since getting back into the game early this March, with a new FC that wasn't shy about getting out and about, and a new FC storyline that allowed us opportunities to do so, and more time that I allowed myself for RP, I've:

Roleplayed with my FC out at the Sepulchre, at the Forgotten Springs, and at the Burning Wall in open channels (/say, /yell, /shout, /em, etc.)
Witnessed and interacted with two complete strangers who were roleplaying in the Coffer & Coffin before my friend and I strolled in to do likewise.
Attended the Grindstone, which while isn't spontaneous, is certainly an open-world roleplay opportunity.
Randomly ran into Sounsyy Mirke almost getting into a street fight with some stranger of a Miqo'te, all while Franz looked on.

I could keep going, on and on, but I think that's sufficient to make my point: this is a perceived issue, and the solution is as personal and reliant-on-the-individual as the issue is.

There are other reasons for concern, and they've already been raised and, in a few instances, handwaved/brushed aside. New rifts in community as a result of attendance/non-attendance, individual- and company-level tensions, a grass-roots fear of "Big Business" except substitute "Free Company" for "Business", etc.

I can almost guarantee you that if the title of this thread had been "Server-wide RP FC Meet-and-Greet" and the original post limited to "When would work best for you?", you wouldn't have seen any of the aforementioned apprehension, pessimism, or negativity.

I can also almost guarantee that if this summit wasn't to have such rigidly parliamentary proceedings, there'd be less animosity and more acceptance. After all, who's determining in what order the representatives are speaking? Who's going to be going first? Who's going last? Whoever ends up at or near the end is going to get shafted anyway courtesy of flagging attention/interest. Why can't this be more of a swap meet? Pick a really, really large area and have FCs set themselves up throughout, as if they had "booths", with enough distance between them so you wouldn't end up with chat spam.

So, to my eyes, there's a lot of room for improvement as far as the format and the intended purpose of this event are concerned.

EDIT:

This entire post is not something I would have been able to fit into the allotted speaking time allowed to me as a representative under the formal structure proposed for this event. So take that. *drops mic*

***Maril*** · **03-26-2015, 02:24 PM**

(03-26-2015, 12:36 PM)Verad Wrote:
(03-26-2015, 11:47 AM)Sastra Wrote: If we don't try something nothing will get better, and then it could still get worse over time.

Why do things need to get better? What is the problem that is preventing things from getting better, and what does better look like? What is the evidence of this problem?

I did touch on some of the potential problems and worst-case scenarios from doing nothing in my post. I'm not saying that things are bad - Because they're not. I'm more trying to highlight that whilst a summit like this could lead to conditions worsening/drama, so could not doing anything.Â
Again, one of the things I hope to see is people finding the courage to run larger events who have not before, as simply leaving this responsibility to the "usual" people who do it (Not saying that new ones don't ever sprout up on their own either.) may result in burnouts and a dip in larger events. I quite enjoy large events, so I would see that as something negative.Â
Of other things, this provides a chance for FC Leads/Officers that do not frequent the RPC to partake and get acquainted with people, it gives new FC's an opportunity to show up and mark their presence - Things that might not happen of natural ways. I know from my own experience with KinRP that it can be very hard to find anyone to work with towards something when you don't really know anyone. I feel like we need to pay attention to the fact that there's a balance to keep between doing too much and doing too little - It would not be right to say things haven't changed since housing got introduced, and I'm all in favor for nipping things in the bud before it becomes a bigger issue that is subsequently harder to deal with. FC leads and their officers can do a bunch of things that can have a bunch of positive effects on the community - But those positive effects do not involve developing a mind-controlling technique wherein we force everyone to accept Pastel Pink as the one true color.Â

Would like to highlight that I am also not talking in definitely's, I don't know how things will go in the end. I could be totally wrong. We'll see ^^Â

Also as a side-note to Zhavi: I've been passing on the knowledge to a few fc's that I know don't frequent the RPC so far, and one of them has signed up ^^ I don't know if anyone else has been doing something like that, but it does sound like a good idea to try and get it out to others.

Verad · **03-26-2015, 02:39 PM**

(03-26-2015, 02:24 PM)Sastra Wrote: I did touch on some of the potential problems and worst-case scenarios from doing nothing in my post. I'm not saying that things are bad - Because they're not. I'm more trying to highlight that whilst a summit like this could lead to conditions worsening/drama, so could not doing anything.Â
Again, one of the things I hope to see is people finding the courage to run larger events who have not before, as simply leaving this responsibility to the "usual" people who do it (Not saying that new ones don't ever sprout up on their own either.) may result in burnouts and a dip in larger events. I quite enjoy large events, so I would see that as something negative.Â
Of other things, this provides a chance for FC Leads/Officers that do not frequent the RPC to partake and get acquainted with people, it gives new FC's an opportunity to show up and mark their presence - Things that might not happen of natural ways. I know from my own experience with KinRP that it can be very hard to find anyone to work with towards something when you don't really know anyone. I feel like we need to pay attention to the fact that there's a balance to keep between doing too much and doing too little - It would not be right to say things haven't changed since housing got introduced, and I'm all in favor for nipping things in the bud before it becomes a bigger issue that is subsequently harder to deal with. FC leads and their officers can do a bunch of things that can have a bunch of positive effects on the community - But those positive effects do not involve developing a mind-controlling technique wherein we force everyone to accept Pastel Pink as the one true color.Â

Would like to highlight that I am also not talking in definitely's, I don't know how things will go in the end. I could be totally wrong. We'll see ^^Â

Also as a side-note to Zhavi: I've been passing on the knowledge to a few fc's that I know don't frequent the RPC so far, and one of them has signed up ^^ I don't know if anyone else has been doing something like that, but it does sound like a good idea to try and get it out to others.

The examples you provide are vague at best, or are, in the case of the GW2 example of dealing with "claims" on locations, solved problems. There's an absence of these claims because FFXIV has a housing system that eliminates the need for them. Everyone can have their own space. The fact that everyone has their own space and there is therefore less interaction (something I don't agree with, but let's presume for the sake of argument) is one of the "problems" that the summit seeks to address, as seen in the post Osric quoted. That sounds more like unsolving a problem than solving one.

Your post seems to be predicated on the notion that decentralized RP, in which everybody has their own circle and is comfortable with that, is a problem in and of itself, but it doesn't actually provide evidence as to why. If you're assuming that the ideal of RP is that it shouldn't be decentralized - that everybody should be able to find RP anywhere - well, I disagree with that, and you've also shown how centralized RP where players are unable to have their own space can actually be a problem as well with the GW2 example.

I'm also not sure who the "same people" running the same server-wide events are. Do you have a specific list of people doing these at great length, and are you sure they're burning out?

(03-26-2015, 02:39 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: This is an event thread, not a discussion thread. I have said that a few times too now, and I'm surprised some people who should know better are trying to derail the thread and take it off topic. If you seriously think this is the end of the world or some underhanded thing, then by all means, take it to the RP Discussion, hell you even can call it the Summit of FCs whatever thread. The point of this thread is for people attending to state they are so I can keep a list, and for me to post updates. There are a few RP events and FCs I'll be honest with, I have a problem with. But as a respectful adult you don't see me busting into their Linkshell or Event threads and telling them I think they or their ideas dumb/dangerous. I would like the same respect, especially from those who should know better or are held to a higher standard via community standing.

I do not expect this respect. If you have a problem with the content of an event I am running, you are welcome to criticize it in the event itself. Doing so allows me to review my own work and improve on what I'm doing for future events. Why would you not want the same?

Edda · **03-26-2015, 02:54 PM**

I think your problem here is you are taking people's legitimate concerns as aggression, or attempts to stir up "drama." It is not unprecedented for people to voice their issues with an event in the thread for the event itself on the RPC. I understand your desire to not have this event taken in the wrong way. I understand that your intentions here are wholly good. However, stiffing legitimate discussion, even if it is not all positive, is no way to conduct an event.

The issues people have raised with such an event are very reasonable. However, there seems to be little attempt on yours, or anyone else's parts, to address them, and instead dismissing them as paranoia, drama, or whatever else, is quite disheartening to see.

Erik Mynhier · **03-26-2015, 02:56 PM**

(03-26-2015, 02:54 PM)Edda Wrote: I think your problem here is you are taking people's legitimate concerns as aggression, or attempts to stir up "drama." It is not unprecedented for people to voice their issues with an event in the thread for the event itself on the RPC. I understand your desire to not have this event taken in the wrong way. I understand that your intentions here are wholly good. However, stiffing legitimate discussion, even if it is not all positive, is in no way to conduct an event.

The issues people have raised with such an event are very reasonable. However, there seems to be little attempt on yours, or anyone else's parts, to address them, and instead dismissing them as paranoia, drama, or whatever else, is quite disheartening to see.

No or I would just be yelling "SHT UP!" I will gladly debate people on this, but I would like to unclog the event thread. I'm asking that a separate thread be used instead of the event thread itself.

(03-26-2015, 02:59 PM)Zhavi Wrote: I think people might be shy to create one because they don't want to ... hmmm, be seen as perhaps attacking you. I would suggest you create a thread and link to it in the OP.

I can see that, I can do that. Alright, I have to finish getting ready for work and I'll put up something before I leave.

(03-26-2015, 03:02 PM)Edda Wrote:
(03-26-2015, 02:56 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: No or I would just be yelling "SHT UP!" I will gladly debate people on this, but I would like to unclog the event thread. I'm asking that a separate thread be used instead of the event thread itself.
Are you sure about that? Your want to unclog the thread would seem reasonable to me if everyone was circle-jerking and clapping each other on the backs. But why remove concerns? So a moderator can throw them in another thread, and you can ignore it? Letting the decries of your event suck each other off in a separate thread will give you peace of mind, but it will not fix the inherent problems with the event itself. If you sincerely did not believe there were no issues before people starting venting their concerns, there are now.

[Image: Star-Wars-7-Rumor-Emperor-Returning.jpg]

Oh no, you're on to me. When I did the royal ball, I was accused of trying to power play and become ic buds with the Sultana, but it didn't happen, we had a dance and it was fun. When I did the Starlight Ball, I was accused of trying to make every character religious, it didn't happen. We had another dance and it was funner. Now I'm either forming a shadow government, or are to stupid to realize I'm playing into the hands of the said Shadow Government. It will not happen, we'll all meet up, tell eachother what we each do, there will be funnies in the presentations, and it'll be fun.

New things can be scary until they are not new anymore. So what can you do? If you or others think its wrong/plot/conspiracy there's really nothing I can say until the event is over, and everyone reads the logs and or watches the vid, that will change your minds. So after 5 pages of this stuff, why bother.

As stated in this post I'll throw up a topic so you guys can post your concerns, and I'll answer them the best I can.

Verad · **03-26-2015, 03:27 PM**

(03-26-2015, 03:19 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: New things can be scary until they are not new anymore. So what can you do? If you or others think its wrong/plot/conspiracy there's really nothing I can say until the event is over, and everyone reads the logs and or watches the vid, that will change your minds. So after 5 pages of this stuff, why bother.

As stated in this post I'll throw up a topic so you guys can post your concerns, and I'll answer them the best I can.

Even if we presume for the sake of argument that this event won't actually be harmful, you've created a number of structural problems in how the event is organized that minimize its ability to actually be helpful. You're also presuming that an hour-long stream of pre-prepared recruitment macros of FCs whose information is already available on the website on which you're organizing this event is, in some way that I'm still trying to understand, entertaining to watch.

So, very well, let's set aside the concerns about councils and whatnot. How on earth are parliamentary proceedings fun? Is it the pleasure derived from 50+ RPers in the same place, not saying anything until their turn? Is the gear meant to be visually pleasing enough to justify this? Are the closing remarks intended to be exceptionally poignant?

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Interaction of Multiple Free Companies

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