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Warren Castille · **04-17-2015, 10:10 AM**

Physics, physics physics.

[Image: giphy.gif]

One of these things is not like the other ones.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **04-17-2015, 10:12 AM**

(04-17-2015, 10:09 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote: The way I see it is like this. A Lalafell punches a Roe in the face, he may break a jaw. A Roe punches a lalafell in the face, and he would completely cave their face in....instant death.

Or at least send the Lalafell flying, assuming some form of protection. Unless gravity and basic laws of physics like momentum are a myth

Gegenji · **04-17-2015, 10:14 AM**

(04-17-2015, 09:59 AM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: Sure, a particularly strong Lalafell could pick up -the legs- of said Highlander Male. Could drag him away, just like the 1.0 Miner video. But a supplex or deadlift? Highly unlikiely unless the Highlander was playing along.

Deadlift maybe, but it wouldn't be much of an achievement. The Highlander is being dead-lifted, what, two/three feet off the ground tops? As you mentioned, just moving your legs or arms could probably help you reach ground again. Which means the deadlift would likely only work if it proceeded quickly into something else before the larger individual has time to react. Lift and then throw, or lift and then drop them back down on a knee or something (which would be its own problem due to dimensions, but feasible, I suppose).

I am greatly amused by the idea of a Lalafell lifting up a dude by one leg and just caber-tossing the dude while he's still surprised and flailing about, though. Mostly because it reminds me vaguely of a fight in World's Greatest Disciple Kenichi where Kenichi lifts and then hurls a Sumo Wrestler out of a sunken ring. I tried to look up a clip of just the fight but all I can get is some AMVs. Still, I'll include one for entertainment value (the throw in question is about two minutes in if you'd like to cut straight to it):

[youtube]I0XJkkCSp4Q[/youtube]

Just imagine Kenichi being a little popoto and we're good. Again, though, does this mean anything? Not really. Amuses me, though.

SicketySix · **04-17-2015, 10:14 AM**

(04-17-2015, 10:12 AM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 10:09 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote: The way I see it is like this. A Lalafell punches a Roe in the face, he may break a jaw. A Roe punches a lalafell in the face, and he would completely cave their face in....instant death.

Or at least send the Lalafell flying, assuming some form of protection. Unless gravity and basic laws of physics like momentum are a myth

True, but I was referring to brute force over actual law of physics.

For instance, a Midget punches a pumpkin, compared to lets see, a WWE wrestler.

EDIT: And I'm not even saying that's how it should be in FFXIV, it's just what I imagine.

Warren Castille · **04-17-2015, 10:18 AM**

You guys have no idea how hard it is to find a gif of a small person dropkicking a grown person.

Gegenji · **04-17-2015, 10:20 AM**

(04-17-2015, 10:14 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 10:12 AM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 10:09 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote: The way I see it is like this. A Lalafell punches a Roe in the face, he may break a jaw. A Roe punches a lalafell in the face, and he would completely cave their face in....instant death.

Or at least send the Lalafell flying, assuming some form of protection. Unless gravity and basic laws of physics like momentum are a myth
True, but I was referring to brute force over actual Â law of physics.

For instance, a Midget punches a pumpkin, compared to lets see, a WWE wrestler.

Still, from a mechanical standpoint (and I suppose a lore standpoint as well?) a Lalafell of similar class, level, stats, and gear can take an equal amount of punishment as any other race. Obviously this is just for proper gamification, but there's nothing saying that a Lalafell being punched in the face will be any better or worse off any anyone else being punched in the face.

Basically, my question in regards to your statement is this: What is different in their cranial structures that would make a Lalafell being punched in the face by a Roe any different from that same Roe punching a Hyur in the face?

The point of contention, I believe, is more of a matter of dimensions (Using Franz's example: a Lalafell would not be able to suplex a Highlander) and possible muscle strength per ponze compared to the other races. In fact, I would posit that the Roe would be more likely to try and kick said Lalafell in the face rather than trying to get low enough to punch them - since the Lalafell's size has been noted as both a benefit and a drawback in combat.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **04-17-2015, 10:22 AM**

(04-17-2015, 10:14 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 09:59 AM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: Sure, a particularly strong Lalafell could pick up -the legs- of said Highlander Male. Could drag him away, just like the 1.0 Miner video. But a suplex or deadlift? Highly unlikely unless the Highlander was playing along.

Deadlift maybe, but it wouldn't be much of an achievement. The Highlander is being dead-lifted, what, two/three feet off the ground tops? As you mentioned, just moving your legs or arms could probably help you reach ground again. Which means the deadlift would likely only work if it proceeded quickly into something else before the larger individual has time to react. Lift and then throw, or lift and then drop them back down on a knee or something (which would be its own problem due to dimensions, but feasible, I suppose).

I am greatly amused by the idea of a Lalafell lifting up a dude by one leg and just caber-tossing the dude while he's still surprised and flailing about, though. Mostly because it reminds me vaguely of a fight in World's Greatest Disciple Kenichi where Kenichi lifts and then hurls a Sumo Wrestler out of a sunken ring. I tried to look up a clip of just the fight but all I can get is some AMVs. Still, I'll include one for entertainment value (the throw in question is about two minutes in if you'd like to cut straight to it):

[youtube]I0XJkkCSp4Q[/youtube]

Just imagine Kenichi being a little popoto and we're good. Again, though, does this mean anything? Not really. Amuses me, though.

That seems consistent with my thoughts. And mildly entertaining to see animated. (I'd imagine it could be done, assuming the Highlander didn't flail about and disrupt the center of gravity and just topple them over.) ((Or on another note, I could see a kick or stomp going terribly wrong as the Highlander gets launched after making an easy opening))

Warren Castille · **04-17-2015, 10:32 AM**

(04-17-2015, 10:20 AM)Gegenji Wrote: Still, from a mechanical standpoint (and I suppose a lore standpoint as well?) a Lalafell of similar class, level, stats, and gear can take an equal amount of punishment as any other race. Obviously this is just for proper gamification, but there's nothing saying that a Lalafell being punched in the face will be any better or worse off any anyone else being punched in the face.

Basically, my question in regards to your statement is this: What is different in their cranial structures that would make a Lalafell being punched in the face by a Roe any different from that same Roe punching a Hyur in the face?

The point of contention, I believe, is more of a matter of dimensions (Using Franz's example: a Lalafell would not be able to suplex a Highlander) and possible muscle strength per ponze compared to the other races. In fact, I would posit that the Roe would be more likely to try and kick said Lalafell in the face rather than trying to get low enough to punch them - since the Lalafell's size has been noted as both a benefit and a drawback in combat.

Grindstone warning.

The devil is in the details. I don't think there's an issue with any given lalafell defeating any given <anyone else>. The debate comes from "well lalafell soak damage just like everyone else, and do damage just like everyone else." That's boring and makes for boring combat encounters. The main strength of a lalafell is the small stature. Accepting that and then saying "but no, they also punch just as hard as anyone else" completely ignores the interesting room you've got to work in there. A lalafell can accept X damage before going down and a roe can accept the same amount, but the difference should be in how it's sold. Let successful attacks on the lalafell be staggering, forceful blows. Let the knock-out be the kick that sends them flying. Don't soak damage by just blocking and no-selling, take damage by rolling and dodging (or being hit and then rebounding in the air, all dex-like).

Similarly, the roe should be getting hit EVERY ROUND even when successful in defending. He's the size of a barn comparatively, it makes sense for him to get hit. He should just be able to soak the damage, and let the lalafell beat him with the death of a thousand cuts. Knees and ankles, groin and kidneys. You don't cut down a tree by attacking at the canopy.

On the topic of facepunches, though: Lalafell heads are round, kinda bulbous and lack, erm, features. Tiny button noses. Teeny mouths. Compare that to my big fat angular highlander face, full of breakable and bustable pieces and parts. A lalafell taking a straight punch to the dome would probably do less damage simply because there's less to damage! A highlander taking a punch has a big ol' schnoz to get broken, even if the "damage" is less.

tl;dr: Be more creative than "lol no i suplex u"

Flickering Ember · **04-17-2015, 10:44 AM**

(04-17-2015, 10:20 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 10:14 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 10:12 AM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 10:09 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote: The way I see it is like this. A Lalafell punches a Roe in the face, he may break a jaw. A Roe punches a lalafell in the face, and he would completely cave their face in....instant death.

Or at least send the Lalafell flying, assuming some form of protection. Unless gravity and basic laws of physics like momentum are a myth
True, but I was referring to brute force over actual Â law of physics.

For instance, a Midget punches a pumpkin, compared to lets see, a WWE wrestler.

Still, from a mechanical standpoint (and I suppose a lore standpoint as well?) a Lalafell of similar class, level, stats, and gear can take an equal amount of punishment as any other race. Obviously this is just for proper gamification, but there's nothing saying that a Lalafell being punched in the face will be any better or worse off any anyone else being punched in the face.

Basically, my question in regards to your statement is this: What is different in their cranial structures that would make a Lalafell being punched in the face by a Roe any different from that same Roe punching a Hyur in the face?

The point of contention, I believe, is more of a matter of dimensions (Using Franz's example: a Lalafell would not be able to suplex a Highlander) and possible muscle strength per ponze compared to the other races. In fact, I would posit that the Roe would be more likely to try and kick said Lalafell in the face rather than trying to get low enough to punch them - since the Lalafell's size has been noted as both a benefit and a drawback in combat.

Regardless of one's thoughts on lalafell's physical strength, they do have to at the very least be capable of bringing and taking as much pain as other races. If not, then how could lalafells possibly stack up in society?Â

If lalafells could not match the other races in combat then why would they allow them to fight? Better yet, why bring anything but a roegadyn to a fight? The size difference between Ember and miqo'te is often hilarious.

How and why lalafells achieve that is difficult to say. I believe that is a flavor that the lalafell Rper can come up with for themselves, seeing as any in game explanation is relatively minor.

SicketySix · **04-17-2015, 10:46 AM**

Hold up your fist.
Hold up a 2yr olds fist.

Even if the 2yr old can punch with the same force and velocity that you can, it can only hit a relatively small portion of your face. Hit the baby in the face and you hit their skull, nose, eyes, chin, not to mention crush their forehead.

So even pound for pound, force for force, velocity for velocity, on equal terms, with equal power, the larger will win.

Another example if you will. Pretend there is a paper wall in front of you. Pick up a small mortar brick and throw it through the paper wall. Now do the same with a standard cement block. Which did the most damage?

And again, I understand that this is all based on a real life system, and FFXIV is a fantasy game, I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that realistically, it's impossible if everything is even-stevens.

Gegenji · **04-17-2015, 10:49 AM**

(04-17-2015, 10:32 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: The devil is in the details. I don't think there's an issue with any given lalafell defeating any given <anyone else>. The debate comes from "well lalafell soak damage just like everyone else, and do damage just like everyone else."

That sounds about right to me. Lalafell can and should approach combat differently than the taller races, just as other races likely can and should approach combat against them. This would apply to a lesser degree to the other races too - we saw a hidden Au Ra using their tail and claws pretty effectively in combat in the last Grindstone. That's a physiological difference that needs to be accounted for too.

I will say, though, that while just as straight absorbing the blow is pretty boring... so too could be watching your opponent go flying with every single hit. It wouldn't be much fun for the Lalafell combatant either, I'd figure ("Oops, I got hit. Well, looks like I go flying again."). I could see a Lalafell absorbing or deflecting some of the strike, as long as it's done in an understandable and reasonable fashion.

Take Chachan for example. Yeah, he'd barely break 50 ponze dripping wet (and I'm not even sure if he's properly weighed - not sure how heavy a muscly little dude like him would actually weigh)... but he's also wearing a full suit of cobalt armor on top of it. So he'll certainly skid and stagger and stumble when a good meaty hit lands on him, but I would figure he wouldn't go airborne as easily as some folks would figure.

SicketySix · **04-17-2015, 10:52 AM**

(04-17-2015, 10:49 AM)Gegenji Wrote: I would figure he wouldn't go airborne as easily as some folks would figure.

I agree, try kicking a 50lbs feed bag and see how that goes.

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **04-17-2015, 10:52 AM**

(04-17-2015, 10:46 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote: Hold up your fist.
Hold up a 2yr olds fist.

Even if the 2yr old can punch with the same force and velocity that you can, it can only hit a relatively small portion of your face. Hit the baby in the face and you hit their skull, nose, eyes, chin, not to mention crush their forehead.

So even pound for pound, force for force, velocity for velocity, on equal terms, with equal power, the larger will win.

Another example if you will. Pretend there is a paper wall in front of you. Pick up a small mortar brick and throw it through the paper wall. Now do the same with a standard cement block. Which did the most damage?

And again, I understand that this is all based on a real life system, and FFXIV is a fantasy game, I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that realistically, it's impossible if everything is even-stevens.

Assuming a lalafell fist and a highlander first both come at my face, I think I'd take the highlander one though.

Pressure = Force / Area. That lala fist is gonna hurt way more.

SicketySix · **04-17-2015, 10:54 AM**

(04-17-2015, 10:52 AM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 10:46 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote: Hold up your fist.
Hold up a 2yr olds fist.

Even if the 2yr old can punch with the same force and velocity that you can, it can only hit a relatively small portion of your face. Hit the baby in the face and you hit their skull, nose, eyes, chin, not to mention crush their forehead.

So even pound for pound, force for force, velocity for velocity, on equal terms, with equal power, the larger will win.

Another example if you will. Pretend there is a paper wall in front of you. Pick up a small mortar brick and throw it through the paper wall. Now do the same with a standard cement block. Which did the most damage?

And again, I understand that this is all based on a real life system, and FFXIV is a fantasy game, I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying that realistically, it's impossible if everything is even-stevens.

Assuming a lalafell fist and a highlander first both come at my face, I think I'd take the highlander one though.

Pressure = Force / Area. That lala fist is gonna hurt way more.

I'm not really sure how to argue that a broken nose is worse then a broken nose, a shattered jaw and 2 black eyes lol

Gegenji · **04-17-2015, 10:56 AM**

(04-17-2015, 10:46 AM)Casden Reeves Wrote: Hold up your fist.
Hold up a 2yr olds fist.

Even if the 2yr old can punch with the same force and velocity that you can, it can only hit a relatively small portion of your face. Hit the baby in the face and you hit their skull, nose, eyes, chin, not to mention crush their forehead.

So even pound for pound, force for force, velocity for velocity, on equal terms, with equal power, the larger will win.

If it's hitting with the same force and velocity, wouldn't the smaller actually be more dangerous? That's focusing more energy on a single point rather than spread out over a larger fist's area. I'm thinking cannonball versus bullet here, and could easily be way off the mark.

But, as you also stated, this is if things are "even-steven." Can we readily assume that? Maybe Lalafell are physically denser than we give them credit for. Or their musculature allows them to absorb blows more readily. I doubt SE put that much thought into it, though.

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