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Khadan · **04-17-2015, 03:27 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:10 PM)Aya Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 03:01 PM)Kayllen Wrote: We don't know for sure that all the houses in Ishgard are Elezen and/or that only Elezen are part of the aristocracy. What we DO know is that Elezen are the majority population, thus increasing the chances that they will reach 'station' by population density alone.
Yes we do know that the major Houses are entirely Elezen (three Wildwood, one Duskwight).Â There's no evidence of non-Elezen Houses, so I can I turn your own mantra against you? Evidence please :-]

The reason the houses are Elezen is because they were there first.Â Its their city.Â Hyur are newcomers who have integrated over the past several centuries.Â The reason Elezen are better and more important is because its their city.Â Hyur are newcomers.Â Its not much of a leap.

Quote:It only flies in the face of what we know if we accept the very little we do know as the 'end all; be all'. Luckily that would be irrational and something that most people would avoid doing. Does your opinion that "It is likely that non-Elezen may have a harder time advancing in society" a possible and probable one? Yes, if not just from population density then from cultural examples of the Elezen seeming to be primarily the ones in positions of power. Is that evidence of racism? Still no. It MIGHT be argued that there is a class-privilege issue, though, but I won't back that horse without some more data.
I disagree entirely.Â Racism is the standard in Eorzea.Â We know that Ishgard society is racially segregated at the very top (there simply are none but Elezen there).Â It is possible that beneath this very top layer this situation simply ceases to exist, and all live with harmony united by their common religious conviction; however, this just does not agree with my intuition.Â It is possible (as I said, we don't know) but I think this is a significantly greater logical leap than to assume that the same stratification is the norm all the way down.

Quote:We would still have great cause to speak of it, actually. Evidence is what causes discussion to occur with actual logical debate. Without evidence you're just arguing conjecture and that ain't no way to be, mayun.

So without evidence of your cultural racism assertion I state firmly, again, that without any proof we can only assume that national/cultural racism in Ishgard is actually -not- a thing. For now.
Evidence in the case of a yes/no proposition tends to settle the matter!Â And I would again turn your presumption on the head.Â National and cultural racism are the norm in Eorzea.Â To weight to overturn the proposition rests on those attempting to claim it does not exist.

You've misread. I stated that you do not know if ALL the houses in Ishgard are Elezen. That was to state that there are more than the Big 4, which there are.

You're basing too much on your intuition and you disagreeing is irrelevant since thus far you've failed to prove your claim of systematic racism in Ishgard.

You claim a cultural Norm in Eorzea that is consistently proven to be false by the sheer amount of multi-racial cooperation that goes on every day, not only among the armed forces (though that is predominant), but also in in the aristocracies and bureaucracies of every city state. I think it might be fair to say that, "Racial tension, conflict, and divides were the norm at one time" but if you started to spout racial propaganda in public at any city state you'd likely be met with trouble.

Finally: Ishgard being geographically a part of "Eorzea" does not in fact prove your point. Genetic/Composition-division fallacy is still strongly at play, here. You need to provide proof otherwise.

In conclusion you can't shift burden of proof when you are the one making the claim. It doesn't work that way, sorry. You have made very strong claims to Ishgard's supposedly 'racist' culture with literally zero proof other than fallacious assertions. The burden of proof lies on you, since all I've done thus far is say "I don't believe what you're claiming based on the information you're providing".

I would like to state that this isn't an attack on you as some posters are getting a little heated. Let's remember that this is a disagreement in discussion only.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 03:30 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:16 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote: Calm down. Okay so there's no biological issue cited, I guess, though they could be there, we don't know and it's not a topic I really tread often because... meh?

I don't deal in conjecture, sir. I deal in logical conclusions drawn from actual data.

(04-17-2015, 02:45 PM)Kayllen Wrote: No that's only evidence of difficulty between biology. It's harder to produce offspring between races because conception is supposedly more difficult or some such thing.

(04-17-2015, 03:13 PM)Kayllen Wrote: See that's why we have 'burden of proof' which lies on the person making the claim(s). =) Otherwise we're just swimming in the sea of Composition/Division fallacy.

Take just a second.

To do what? I was never firm on the biological issue and later admitted my error as you can observe for yourself. You've proven that, what, I said something and had no proof of it and then later said "okay I was wrong"? Thank you for pointing out my ability to admit a mistake which is generally a positive trait.

Gegenji · **04-17-2015, 03:35 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:27 PM)Kayllen Wrote: You claim a cultural Norm in Eorzea that is consistently proven to be false by the sheer amount of multi-racial cooperation that goes on every day, not only among the armed forces (though that is predominant), but also in in the aristocracies and bureaucracies of every city state. I think it might be fair to say that, "Racial tension, conflict, and divides were the norm at one time" but if you started to spout racial propaganda in public at any city state you'd likely be met with trouble.

Finally: Ishgard being geographically a part of "Eorzea" does not in fact prove your point. Genetic/Composition-division fallacy is still strongly at play, here. You need to provide proof otherwise.

Flipping script again here. With what proof is the first one fair? Have we seen any events in game where someone got in trouble for being racist? Keep in mind that the multi-racial cooperation - and, to wit, the cooperation between the Eorzean Alliance - is, from how I understand it (I believe it was mentioned somewhere but the exact reference eludes me) wrought solely because Garlemand was knocking at their doors saying "Hi, we want your stuff." As soon as the threat passed, they returned to their own internal squabbles without much care about what was going on in the other nations.

As for the second. If there is a cultural norm for all of Eorzea (as stated by someone on the lore team), wouldn't it be normal to believe that a nation within the borders of Eorzea would follow these cultural norms? I would figure it would be only natural to assume that one would require proof as to why they are different from everyone else, rather than the same.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 03:35 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:22 PM)Kage Wrote: It is evidence that races experience discrimination over their cultural differences.

The elite in Ishgard are made up of one of the culturally discriminatory races (much talked about Elezen vs Hyur cultural issue.

Cross breeds are treated differently. Conjecture because we don't know if it is Ishgard but they keep mentioning 3.0 so Ishgard is a very safe assumption. That would nake it a societal issue.

maybe it is too politically correct to call them out on it? Why would I not call out a city state who treats a cross racial couple/offspring differently not racist???

The lore team isnt saying "certain individual of x race". These are broad general statements Â which indicate it is the norm for the races.

I'm not fully disagreeing with you. I'm just saying we don't know for a fact that it is the case. =)

Kage · **04-17-2015, 03:36 PM**

This is so hard to do on a smart phone. I will now bold a different part.

Quote:Lore about conflicts between Hyur and Elezen?
-Tension between races because bloody history between them. They never made up but put aside their issues. They don't really like each. They just put up with each other because common enemy. In beginning of the 6AE the Elezen migrated back in, then hyur migrated and tried to take Elezen lands. Clashing and moving apart - gets ingrained in their society. Lalafell will rise on occasion and attack other races, for example. In 3.0 we will have half-races. But they are treated different. Quest will come to explain.

Cross-racial?
-adventurers come from different land. From places slightly more â€œprogressive.â€ Live together but separate. Hyur and elezen had wars. A lot of bad blood between races. Recently races to come together in single nations. Cross Racial is possible, but it doesnâ€™t happen a lot. Itâ€™s a cultural thing. 3.0 there will be a cross-racial union.
[/quote]
Part of that still applies. They only recently came together. They never resolved their issues.

Things like cultural racism that is ingrained in society doesn't evaporate because your great grandfather moved somewhere.

V'aleera · **04-17-2015, 03:38 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:35 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I'm not fully disagreeing with you. I'm just saying we don't know for a fact that it is the case. =)

I think we know all we need to know to say "racism exists". Because Word of God has mandated that it exists. What remains to be determined is the specifics of that racism, how it is applied, to what degree, and to whom.

Maybe Ishgardians don't like miqo'te because they get hair everywhere, but they think Roe are pretty alright because they tend to give dragons indigestion? We don't know, but hopefully we will find out in Heavensward.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 03:42 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:35 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 03:27 PM)Kayllen Wrote: You claim a cultural Norm in Eorzea that is consistently proven to be false by the sheer amount of multi-racial cooperation that goes on every day, not only among the armed forces (though that is predominant), but also in in the aristocracies and bureaucracies of every city state. I think it might be fair to say that, "Racial tension, conflict, and divides were the norm at one time" but if you started to spout racial propaganda in public at any city state you'd likely be met with trouble.

Finally: Ishgard being geographically a part of "Eorzea" does not in fact prove your point. Genetic/Composition-division fallacy is still strongly at play, here. You need to provide proof otherwise.

Flipping script again here. With what proof is the first one fair? Have we seen any events in game where someone got in trouble for being racist? Keep in mind that the multi-racial cooperation - and, to wit, the cooperation between the Eorzean Alliance - is, from how I understand it (I believe it was mentioned somewhere but the exact reference eludes me) wrought solely because Garlemand was knocking at their doors saying "Hi, we want your stuff." As soon as the threat passed, they returned to their own internal squabbles without much care about what was going on in the other nations.

As for the second. If there is a cultural norm for all of Eorzea (as stated by someone on the lore team), wouldn't it be normal to believe that a nation within the borders of Eorzea would follow these cultural norms? I would figure it would be only natural to assume that one would require proof as to why they are different from everyone else, rather than the same.

It's interesting that all pretense to this pervasive "Culture of systematic and violent racism" suddenly just vanishes as if it was never there the moment a foreign invader comes knocking. It's almost as if that culture of racism isn't as rampant as we thought...

In all seriousness, though, we only have hundreds of years of prior history stating "there were wars; people DIED man!" and in the past... let's say 50 years? Almost no examples of racial warring. No Elezen declared war on Hyur or even enacted mass killings on them OR even said "Only Elezen, no Hyur!" We've zero poof of that.Â

What we do have is many, MANY instances of the supposed racial tensions being overcome so often that it begins to beg the question: Are Eorzeans really racist or are they just all brought up in a pseudo-xenophobic fashion because sociologically people gravitate towards their own and this is, inherently, what tends to breed any form of racism at all? Though if that were the case we would have "strictly $race communities" and we don't. There seems to be an interesting mix of all races living, more or less, in harmony with one another in every part of the world. Hell, even the Ishgardians and their history of violence with the Hyur seem to be okay with having Midlanders make up 30-35% of their population. That's pretty astounding for a culture of racism, really.

All in all, we just don't know. I simply state again that we shouldn't make assumptions.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 03:44 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:38 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 03:35 PM)Kayllen Wrote: I'm not fully disagreeing with you. I'm just saying we don't know for a fact that it is the case. =)
I think we know all we need to know to say "racism exists". Because Word of God has mandated that it exists. What remains to be determined is the specifics of that racism, how it is applied, to what degree, and to whom.

Maybe Ishgardians don't like miqo'te because they get hair everywhere, but they think Roe are pretty alright because they tend to give dragons indigestion? We don't know, but hopefully we will find out in Heavensward.

It's a good thing no one said racism doesn't exist!

But yes I agree completely, otherwise. Wait and see is the best course of action when you've no actual proof of $thing. I'm patient enough to wait. =)

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 03:48 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:36 PM)Kage Wrote: This is so hard to do on a smart phone. I will now bold a different part.

Quote:Lore about conflicts between Hyur and Elezen?
-Tension between races because bloody history between them. They never made up but put aside their issues. They don't really like each. They just put up with each other because common enemy. In beginning of the 6AE the Elezen migrated back in, then hyur migrated and tried to take Elezen lands. Clashing and moving apart - gets ingrained in their society. Lalafell will rise on occasion and attack other races, for example. In 3.0 we will have half-races. But they are treated different. Quest will come to explain.

Cross-racial?
-adventurers come from different land. From places slightly more â€œprogressive.â€ Live together but separate. Hyur and elezen had wars. A lot of bad blood between races. Recently races to come together in single nations. Cross Racial is possible, but it doesnâ€™t happen a lot. Itâ€™s a cultural thing. 3.0 there will be a cross-racial union.

Quote:Part of that still applies. They only recently came together. They never resolved their issues.

Things like cultural racism that is ingrained in society doesn't evaporate because your great grandfather moved somewhere.

I understand the smart phone woes, truly. My thumbs are fat and full of terrors and when I'm on the bus it's like trying to write calligraphy during an epileptic fit.Â

You're correct, they don't evaporate, but inundation does tend to dilute racism. Will individuals always be racist little buggers? Of course. Will entire cultures be this way when they're intermixed so pervasively? It's less likely. I like to think of Limsa Lominsa being this great example of what happens when different races and cultures are all rubbing elbows with one another.

Gegenji · **04-17-2015, 03:50 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:42 PM)Kayllen Wrote: All in all, we just don't know. I simply state again that we shouldn't make assumptions.

Why can't we make assumptions, though? You seem to be more or less giving off an opinion of "if you can't prove it, you can't run with it." Yet, at the same time, you can't prove that it doesn't happen either.

Should I not make assumptions that there might be more Doman Lalafell off the fact there's just one? Should Aya not assume that there might be lingering tensions between Elezen and the Ala Mhigans they warred with in the past over land? Should anyone playing a Duskwight not assume they might (emphasis on might, not will) be treated with disdain when RPing with a Gridanian?

If you don't like the approach someone is taking, don't RP with them. Plain and simple. Telling them their character is wrong without providing the same proof you're demanding of them just... doesn't seem fair to me. And, even then, if you're not RPing with them - does the lack of complete and utter adherence to provided lore even matter?

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 03:54 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:50 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 03:42 PM)Kayllen Wrote: All in all, we just don't know. I simply state again that we shouldn't make assumptions.

Why can't we make assumptions, though? You seem to be more or less giving off an opinion of "if you can't prove it, you can't run with it." Yet, at the same time, you can't prove that it doesn't happen either.

Should I not make assumptions that there might be more Doman Lalafell off the fact there's just one? Should Aya not assume that there might be lingering tensions between Elezen and the Ala Mhigans they warred with in the past over land? Should anyone playing a Duskwight not assume they might (emphasis on might, not will) be treated with disdain when RPing with a Gridanian?

If you don't like the approach someone is taking, don't RP with them. Plain and simple. Telling them their character is wrong without providing the same proof you're demanding of them just... doesn't seem fair to me. And, even then, if you're not RPing with them - does the lack of complete and utter adherence to provided lore even matter?

Are you taking a discussion on lore to be a personal matter of whom and whom I do not wish to RP with?

Warren Castille · **04-17-2015, 04:12 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:30 PM)Kayllen Wrote: To do what? I was never firm on the biological issue and later admitted my error as you can observe for yourself. You've proven that, what, I said something and had no proof of it and then later said "okay I was wrong"? Thank you for pointing out my ability to admit a mistake which is generally a positive trait.

Close. It was more of pointing out that you asserted something without citing a source (the burden of proof is on you), based on something we don't know (and appears to be conjecture) and then didn't so much as admit a mistake as you did brush off being wrong and giving it a resounding "Well I don't know anyway so meh."

Close, though.

Khadan · **04-17-2015, 04:22 PM**

(04-17-2015, 04:12 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 03:30 PM)Kayllen Wrote: To do what? I was never firm on the biological issue and later admitted my error as you can observe for yourself. You've proven that, what, I said something and had no proof of it and then later said "okay I was wrong"? Thank you for pointing out my ability to admit a mistake which is generally a positive trait.

Close. It was more of pointing out that you asserted something without citing a source (the burden of proof is on you), based on something we don't know (and appears to be conjecture) and then didn't so much as admit a mistake as you did brush off being wrong and giving it a resounding "Well I don't know anyway so meh."

Close, though.

Are you attempting to provoke me into a discussion on semantics? I won't take that bait if so. I "brushed it off" because it wasn't the topic at hand and, as I said, it wasn't a firm thing that I even stated. It was, at best, an aside, and as it turns out there's no proof of it (one way or the other, mind you). So I guess I don't understand what you're trying to prove here in regards to Ishgard suddenly somehow being this racist hegemony.

Gegenji · **04-17-2015, 04:22 PM**

(04-17-2015, 03:54 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 03:50 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(04-17-2015, 03:42 PM)Kayllen Wrote: All in all, we just don't know. I simply state again that we shouldn't make assumptions.

Why can't we make assumptions, though? You seem to be more or less giving off an opinion of "if you can't prove it, you can't run with it." Yet, at the same time, you can't prove that it doesn't happen either.

Should I not make assumptions that there might be more Doman Lalafell off the fact there's just one? Should Aya not assume that there might be lingering tensions between Elezen and the Ala Mhigans they warred with in the past over land? Should anyone playing a Duskwight not assume they might (emphasis on might, not will) be treated with disdain when RPing with a Gridanian?

If you don't like the approach someone is taking, don't RP with them. Plain and simple. Telling them their character is wrong without providing the same proof you're demanding of them just... doesn't seem fair to me. And, even then, if you're not RPing with them - does the lack of complete and utter adherence to provided lore even matter?

Are you taking a discussion on lore to be a personal matter of whom and whom I do not wish to RP with?

I'm just saying your putting forth a statement that if there isn't complete, concrete proof on a matter, then you're not allowed to say it might for RP purposes. Which is dangerously close to telling people how they can RP.

Kage · **04-17-2015, 04:27 PM**

For me, believing that a xenophobic place such as Ishgard currently is (as closed off from the rest of the Eorzean alliance as it may be) and how the answers indicate that the societal discrimination is not long gone...

I feel that it is an informed opinion to not be surprised to see Ishgard be xenophobic and discriminatory, especially racist. Are there ways against it? I think believing in Halone as fanatically as they appear and being a very good fighter will strengthen the "other" race character Standing with people.

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Reasoning for irregular race/nationality combinations

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