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Zetchryn · **04-18-2015, 03:36 PM**

So, I like to consider myself fairly skilled. However, the first 35 levels in the game lulled me into a false sense of security. "Oh, dungeons have a few mechanics, but it's mostly a tank and spank!"

Then Titan.

And then Qarn.

It's like a completely different game suddenly, and I'm just like "Wait when did this get mechanics?"

/endrant

Nebbs · **04-18-2015, 03:43 PM**

(04-18-2015, 03:36 PM)Zetchryn Wrote: So, I like to consider myself fairly skilled. However, the first 35 levels in the game lulled me into a false sense of security. "Oh, dungeons have a few mechanics, but it's mostly a tank and spank!"

Then Titan.

And then Qarn.

It's like a completely different game suddenly, and I'm just like "Wait when did this get mechanics?"

/endrant

Well, yes.. in fact the whole game builds up like that introducing mechanics and such early and then combining them and increasing difficulty later. What you probably hit is the point where mistakes or overlooking a mechanic has a substantial effect that can change the outcome. The end end game dungeons also feature sudden death for failure, though this tends to be softened as they open it up to more people.

Provided people take time to explain then the content is not too tough, and just think of the extra feeling of achievement when you complete something that was a challenge.

Hope that helps?

McBeefâ„¢ · **04-18-2015, 03:43 PM**

Yoshi P has stated that lvl 1-49 are sort of an extended tutorial for your class. So it will only continue to get harder. Don't worry though! You will learn along the way :3

Telluride · **04-18-2015, 04:06 PM**

It's true: the game does come to a point when mastery of your rotation and class features not only ceases to help get you past certain instances, but in a few cases, it even becomes counterproductive to try and play your class as you expect it to be played.

The simplest case in point comes from the many boss fights in which the boss invokes an ability which is pretty much a middle-finger salute to the whole party, turns invulnerable, and gives you two choices: move away or die. It's tough to remember this when you're a tank, sometimes.

For DPS, sometimes you simply have to stop attacking, despite what you think you should be doing. The Heat Wave attack from WoD's Five Headed Dragon (It's Tiamat, Yoshi, stop fronting) will kill you if you are doing what you think you are supposed to do, and the warning is very, very easy to miss until you'd seen it a dozen times.

But, FFXIV is like ,well, every other MMO in this way: you may be the hero of Eorzea, but even you have to put up with arbitrary mechanics and Contractual Boss Immunity.

Robbing players of their hard-earned skills and nullifying their hard-won abilities is pretty much the shortcut of choice for many game designers. But, this is the legacy of gaming, really, though this page may be of interest: Real Difficulty, or Fake?

The good part is that once you've accepted this, it does even things out a little bit. You may not be perfect on your rotations, but if you learn and master the individual fights, you can STILL win, and move on

mongi291 · **04-18-2015, 04:10 PM**

(04-18-2015, 03:36 PM)Zetchryn Wrote: So, I like to consider myself fairly skilled. However, the first 35 levels in the game lulled me into a false sense of security. "Oh, dungeons have a few mechanics, but it's mostly a tank and spank!"

Then Titan.

And then Qarn.

It's like a completely different game suddenly, and I'm just like "Wait when did this get mechanics?"

/endrant

Why, weren't they tank and spank? I can understand the whole "omg new mechanics too much of them wtf" as a healer or DPS, but for tanks (main tanks at least), from the first dungeon to the last ones (except maybe Coils, still stuck at T5 :c) it's just "Build enmity, dodge AoEs, face it away from the party, stay alive". Sure, there are mechanics from time to time, but most of the times the tank doesn't have to worry about them, and when they do, they are easy to understand and execute.

Zetchryn · **04-18-2015, 04:16 PM**

Well I mean, I like difficulty, and once I learned what Titan does, I was fine with it. It was just the difficulty jump from Haukke and the er... The goblin forest one with the dragon, to Titan and Qarn that had me go 0_0

I had to stop being lazy and remember how to heal WELL. It's nice though, it's just... It's a weird jump. Right at 34-35 the game says "Alright, time to become hard."

Telluride · **04-18-2015, 04:18 PM**

(04-18-2015, 04:10 PM)mongi291 Wrote:
(04-18-2015, 03:36 PM)Zetchryn Wrote: So, I like to consider myself fairly skilled. However, the first 35 levels in the game lulled me into a false sense of security. "Oh, dungeons have a few mechanics, but it's mostly a tank and spank!"

Then Titan.

And then Qarn.

It's like a completely different game suddenly, and I'm just like "Wait when did this get mechanics?"

/endrant
Why, weren't they tank and spank? I can understand the whole "omg new mechanics too much of them wtf" as a healer or DPS, but for tanks (main tanks at least), from the first dungeon to the last ones (except maybe Coils, still stuck at T5 :c) it's just "Build enmity, dodge AoEs, face it away from the party, stay alive". Sure, there are mechanics from time to time, but most of the times the tank doesn't have to worry about them, and when they do, they are easy to understand and execute.

The biggest problems for tanks come in several example flavors:

1) "Wait, I gotta MOVE this target somewhere? OMG where... we wiped, why?"

2) "This bastard's almost dead... hey, no fair, why do I gotta run just because he wants to be invulnerable and nuke the whole playfield now?"

3) "My rotation is perfect - why is this Ninja still stealing my aggro?"

3) "My rotation is perfect - why is this other tank stealing my aggro?"

4) "The boss just ignores aggro in this phase - what do you want me to do?"

5) "Hold boss, crap, grab the adds... dangit, I use provoke, game, what do you want, that I get a proton pack from Ghostbusters before you'll let me hold hate?"

6) I'm facing this boss towards me... his AOE is coming out his BUTT? WTF?"

7) Why does the enemy's big interruptible always pop when my stun is inaccessible from cooldown?"

Edit: Tankin' Ain' Easy.

Cato · **04-18-2015, 04:43 PM**

I'm sure there's plenty of people out there willing to help you tackle most of the content that you're struggling with. One good thing about FFXIV's community is that it's a lot friendlier than the communities in certain other MMO's.

Difficulty itself is also very subjective but not necessarily a bad thing. The very tough stuff is completely optional and the 'hard' stuff during the main scenario quests generally forces people to pull their weight, learn from their mistakes and adapt.

Even then a lot of content is very forgiving of mistakes - and aside from a few bad apples here and there you can generally count on many groups being happy to aid new/inexperienced players.

Caspar · **04-18-2015, 05:08 PM**

Once you adjust, you'll wonder why you ever struggled with it in the first place. An elitist might balk at this, but there's nothing special about being good at this game, only practice and patience. You learn what to do and do it, then you win, and you can do that either by researching ahead of time, or doing what I do (thank god for my permissive raidgroup) and "learn with your body" by dying a lot. What matters is the mindset necessary to not give up.

I think the thing that helped me most is learning to not be discouraged by dying, and playing with people who don't mind wiping to better understand a fight. It says a lot when your raidgroup immediately goes on farm status after their first clear, and only ever wipes due to silly mistakes or experimentation from then on; wiping a lot is only discouraging when you don't feel any progress has been made. Once the puzzle is solved, it stays that way!

Staying positive and recognizing that difficulty comes from lack of comfort or practice makes dying merely another way to learn. Thinking "we'll get it eventually" has been a huge boon to us, both individually as players and as a group. We've never like, server firsted or anything, but most of us are pretty well respected and some of us sell runs and stuff. The only thing my raidgroup never did was Savage, and that was more due to people being too busy or feeling it wasn't productive since it doesn't give any new gear.

Needless to say, this also is true of normal game content. Once you've gotten to endgame, your perspective changes a lot. There are eons of difference between how skilled I was when I made it to Brayflox and my proficiency now.

Steel Wolf · **04-18-2015, 05:15 PM**

The first time this game challenged me as a tank was Brayflox's Longstop. From before then, the dungeons were pretty much chill experiences, with almost no real mechanics to deal with. Suddenly, there were bosses that required me to peel off of attacking things or maneuver them around...and back then at launch, the lag point was terribad, so I was being smashed with breath attacks frequently along with not getting the big dragon out of the pools of goo.

From that point forward, I had to ramp up my game and suddenly I had to pay attention. It was like someone slapped me awake from a nap or something. Sadly, that lag point would follow me around for the rest of the latter game...especially with HM Titan.

Oh GODS that HM TItan at launch...

Mercifully things now have been expected and engaging, with the difficulty level creasing in such a way that I feel that I can keep up. Though that said, I have also stayed away from content that I feel would be beyond my ability, like the EX Primals and all of the Coils. Frankly, Odin pressed me the hardest in this game recently to the point that I felt I was letting the other seven people down, and when I feel that my performance is to that point, I know that quitting is just the better option.

mongi291 · **04-18-2015, 05:20 PM**

(04-18-2015, 04:18 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(04-18-2015, 04:10 PM)mongi291 Wrote:
(04-18-2015, 03:36 PM)Zetchryn Wrote: So, I like to consider myself fairly skilled. However, the first 35 levels in the game lulled me into a false sense of security. "Oh, dungeons have a few mechanics, but it's mostly a tank and spank!"

Then Titan.

And then Qarn.

It's like a completely different game suddenly, and I'm just like "Wait when did this get mechanics?"

/endrant
Why, weren't they tank and spank? I can understand the whole "omg new mechanics too much of them wtf" as a healer or DPS, but for tanks (main tanks at least), from the first dungeon to the last ones (except maybe Coils, still stuck at T5 :c) it's just "Build enmity, dodge AoEs, face it away from the party, stay alive". Sure, there are mechanics from time to time, but most of the times the tank doesn't have to worry about them, and when they do, they are easy to understand and execute.

The biggest problems for tanks come in several example flavors:

1) "Wait, I gotta MOVE this target somewhere? OMG where... we wiped, why?"

2) "This bastard's almost dead... hey, no fair, why do I gotta run just because he wants to be invulnerable and nuke the whole playfield now?"

3) "My rotation is perfect - why is this Ninja still stealing my aggro?"

3) "My rotation is perfect - why is this other tank stealing my aggro?"

4) "The boss just ignores aggro in this phase - what do you want me to do?"

5) "Hold boss, crap, grab the adds... dangit, I use provoke, game, what do you want, that I get a proton pack from Ghostbusters before you'll let me hold hate?"

6) I'm facing this boss towards me... his AOE is coming out his BUTT? WTF?"

7) Why does the enemy's big interruptible always pop when my stun is inaccessible from cooldown?"

Edit: Tankin' Ain' Easy.

Premise: I'm still stuck on T5, so I don't know if those problems come from Coils.

1) Not really an issue, if you are in a good party and you're new they'll put markers or at least explain it to you.

2) I'm sincerely curious: where does this happen? I can't remember any boss that does this. Then again I've been not playing for a while.

3) This can be an issue, but it requires you to be severely undergeared.

4) Use Sword Oath/Drop Defiance, possibly use STR accessories if the boss acts like this from the start.

5) In full parties it's the OT's job. In light parties it's either a single add or the DPS can handle it.

6) You're already protecting the party from cleaves, if they can't avoid shit it's not your fault.

7) Every class/job with a Stun except Paladin uses them as offensive moves, so by the time you need to stun something the boss is already immune to it. And sometimes it's even immune from the start.

mongi291 · **04-18-2015, 05:22 PM**

(04-18-2015, 05:20 PM)mongi291 Wrote:
(04-18-2015, 04:18 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(04-18-2015, 04:10 PM)mongi291 Wrote: [quote=Zetchryn pid=171906 dateline=1429385790]
So, I like to consider myself fairly skilled. However, the first 35 levels in the game lulled me into a false sense of security. "Oh, dungeons have a few mechanics, but it's mostly a tank and spank!"

Then Titan.

And then Qarn.

It's like a completely different game suddenly, and I'm just like "Wait when did this get mechanics?"

/endrant
Why, weren't they tank and spank? I can understand the whole "omg new mechanics too much of them wtf" as a healer or DPS, but for tanks (main tanks at least), from the first dungeon to the last ones (except maybe Coils, still stuck at T5 :c) it's just "Build enmity, dodge AoEs, face it away from the party, stay alive". Sure, there are mechanics from time to time, but most of the times the tank doesn't have to worry about them, and when they do, they are easy to understand and execute.

The biggest problems for tanks come in several example flavors:

1) "Wait, I gotta MOVE this target somewhere? OMG where... we wiped, why?"

2) "This bastard's almost dead... hey, no fair, why do I gotta run just because he wants to be invulnerable and nuke the whole playfield now?"

3) "My rotation is perfect - why is this Ninja still stealing my aggro?"

3) "My rotation is perfect - why is this other tank stealing my aggro?"

4) "The boss just ignores aggro in this phase - what do you want me to do?"

5) "Hold boss, crap, grab the adds... dangit, I use provoke, game, what do you want, that I get a proton pack from Ghostbusters before you'll let me hold hate?"

6) I'm facing this boss towards me... his AOE is coming out his BUTT? WTF?"

7) Why does the enemy's big interruptible always pop when my stun is inaccessible from cooldown?"

Edit: Tankin' Ain' Easy.

Premise: I'm still stuck on T5, so I don't know if those problems come from Coils.

1) Not really an issue, if you are in a good party and you're new they'll put markers or at least explain it to you.

2) I'm sincerely curious: where does this happen? I can't remember any boss that does this. Then again I've been not playing for a while.

3) This can be an issue, but it requires you to be severely undergeared for it to happen. Heck I'm a 106 PLD/104 WAR and I have no problems holding aggro against overgeared party members. Unless they're 130 WAR going Defiance/Unchained/Berserk/Internal Release.

4) Use Sword Oath/Drop Defiance, possibly use STR accessories if the boss acts like this from the start.

5) In full parties it's the OT's job. In light parties it's either a single add or the DPS can handle it.

6) You're already protecting the party from cleaves, if they can't avoid shit it's not your fault.

7) Every class/job with a Stun except Paladin uses them as offensive moves, so by the time you need to stun something the boss is already immune to it. And sometimes it's even immune from the start.

EDIT: Sorry, I quoted instead of editing.

ChewableMorphine · **04-18-2015, 05:24 PM**

[Image: C40560AC5EEE35F5920D23042F3501BBF8F917C1]

mongi291 · **04-18-2015, 05:29 PM**

(04-18-2015, 05:24 PM)â˜†Flynt Reddardâ˜† Wrote:

Told you I can't speak for Coil and harder contents, so yeah, I'm casual.

Flashhelix · **04-18-2015, 05:30 PM**

(04-18-2015, 05:24 PM)â˜†Flynt Reddardâ˜† Wrote:

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Difficulty Ramp Up Rant

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes