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Cato · **04-21-2015, 11:10 PM**

(04-21-2015, 11:06 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 11:03 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: More than once I've seen people express a concern that it is very difficult to break into specific role-playing circles or that they're met with a fairly frosty welcome. Each and every time this then leads to 'popular' role-players rushing to offer their advice and subtly imply that those expressing their concerns simply need to try harder.

Really? We're starting with this again?

Christ.

People are free to disagree, of course, but it's something that I believe there's a lot of merit to. Of course, if you don't believe it's a problem then that's fine - but since multiple people have expressed the same concerns I think it's safe to give the theory more than a dismissive 'Christ'.

Erik Mynhier · **04-21-2015, 11:11 PM**

I would like to add something if I may. Bare with me as this observation comes from my long years of gaming and online rp. Im not surevhow this will be taken so again there is no negativity to this, it is an observation.

From long ago in EQ and NWK there was this free flow of ideas. "Hey wanna rp this?" or "Want to try that?" This behaviour was everywhere. Once my group in EQ wanted to rp we were a small independent kingdom. Our leader would became an ic king and we his knights. It was suggested and so we talked it over calmly and decided... nay not such a good idea. No one lost their minds, accused him (the leader) of god moding. We all talked over the good and the bad of it and agreed to try something else. I think we could talk it out as back then we were not so worried about others in control. We understood it was just a game and if someone did try to run rough shot over us, the player/community would simply ignore them. The understanding that the only person with power over you was you, allowed for more civil exploration of ideas. That fear of "don't tell me what to do" I think is the primary issue and very much a generational thing. Remember that its not just us who have played since the 90s, or 2000's, or even gamers from the last 5 years. Its all of us, multiple generations with differing values, and points of view. That may be where a lot of the misunderstandings come from.

Domri Blackblade · **04-21-2015, 11:13 PM**

(04-21-2015, 11:10 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: People are free to disagree, of course, but it's something that I believe there's a lot of merit to.

I've had this debate with you five times over, so I'm not keen on repeating my points, but it reads a lot like high school when you use the term 'popular people' to substitute for people who get roleplay. I've been here for not even two months, but I put in the effort to find myself an RP circle.

And I'm sorry, but it grates on me when I feel like you are lumping me in with your perceived group of:

[Image: tumblr_m7vxi6i64u1rplijko1_500.gif]

[Image: tumblr_m7vxi6i64u1rplijko1_500.gif]

Seye Qhesu · **04-21-2015, 11:20 PM**

(04-21-2015, 11:13 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 11:10 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: People are free to disagree, of course, but it's something that I believe there's a lot of merit to.

I've had this debate with you five times over, so I'm not keen on repeating my points, but it reads a lot like high school when you use the term 'popular people' to substitute for people who get roleplay. I've been here for not even two months, but I put in the effort to find myself an RP circle.

And I'm sorry, but it grates on me when I feel like you are lumping me in with your perceived group of:

I still don't see how there are popular people. Is it post count? Presence? Or just the amount of rep the person has that makes them put in to this category? Is it the RP they worked to get for themselves or the interactions they pushed to meet others?

I still believe no one should be considered popular on the RPC or in game for RP. Perhaps fun to RP with or someone you know will make you smile after a bad day, but popular?

You should want to rp with someone because you are interested in their character, interactions, storyline, something. Don't try and RP with someone because you think they are popular.

FreelanceWizard · **04-21-2015, 11:22 PM**

So, I suppose it's worth chiming in here from the admin perspective.

My time to actively moderate has unfortunately gone down corresponding with the uptick in activity before the expansion. So, frankly, I've been a bit more hands-off than usual. Historically, the RPC -- since the 1.0 days -- has been fairly low key in its moderation, but the reality is that such an approach worked better when the site was smaller. We're getting another wave of new people and people coming back (which started around, oh, say, January), and there's definitely been some additional tension since then. There's things that can be done by members to help tamp that down (assume good faith, don't get baited, don't be dismissive of others, etc.), but there's also things that can be done on the management side.

To that end, the mods and I are working on a clear set of specifically unacceptable behaviors in accordance with the existing forum rules, as well as a listing of what the consequences are for engaging in such behaviors. We'll be taking a more active stance in enforcing these rules, and the consequences will include things such as the suspension of posting privileges and temporary bans -- enforced automatically by the forum software at certain thresholds of behavior. I've also made it a point to reemphasize being transparent in moderation; if a thread needs to be moderated except in the case of patent nonsense, the mod will make a post explaining what was done (thread split, thread lock, post deletion, etc.).

Part of this is also maintaining our commitment to privacy, which is why we'll continue to eliminate offending posts and apply warnings in private. I don't view it as particularly productive to give bad posts a place to go where they can still be quoted, linked, etc., nor do I think a place where people can challenge any moderation decision openly is valuable. It's a hard enough job to moderate without worrying about whether the bad actor in question is going to turn right back around and demand satisfaction publicly; it's also no fun to be the target of a personal attack and have to see it staring back at you in perpetuity.

If there's a concern regarding bias on the part of the mod team or me, I would be happy to discuss it privately via PM. I should hope that, during my tenure as admin, I've demonstrated that I try to treat everyone equally (and I like to think I'm far enough removed from most of the RP on the server that no one would think I was actually in a clique that was represented on the RPC), but naturally, perception is reality in forum management.

For what it's worth, if there is a sufficient perception that I have some bias for or against some posters based on a perceived clique, I would certainly be willing to step down as administrator in favor of someone the community finds less biased.

#magicAdminHat

Cato · **04-21-2015, 11:26 PM**

(04-21-2015, 11:13 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 11:10 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: People are free to disagree, of course, but it's something that I believe there's a lot of merit to.

I've had this debate with you five times over, so I'm not keen on repeating my points, but it reads a lot like high school when you use the term 'popular people' to substitute for people who get roleplay. I've been here for not even two months, but I put in the effort to find myself an RP circle.

And I'm sorry, but it grates on me when I feel like you are lumping me in with your perceived group of:

I think you're exaggerating, deliberately missing my point and trying to ridicule me rather than address the actual post. I wasn't even referring to you and it should be obvious why i can't name actual names (naming and shaming rules) to reinforce my point.

I'm not the sort of guy who holds his tongue if I see an issue. I'm not being mean, I'm not harassing anybody and I'm not breaching the site rules.

Though if you want to deny that role-players flock to those perceived as 'popular' then you're free to do that. I'm more concerned with the fact that new/lesser known role-players are made to feel unwelcome so I personally have no issue making a few role-players who are hardly starved for role-play uncomfortable if I perceive them to be frigid and/or not open to listening to contrary opinions.

Nobody on this site is in a position to claim that they're all knowing. What one person has experienced can be completely different to what somebody else has experienced during their time role-playing in FFXIV.

Flashhelix · **04-21-2015, 11:30 PM**

In the last three roleplay communities I've been a part of, I've seen this exact topic come up. Somebody citing a supposed "toxic" atmosphere and lamenting the downfall of the once-great roleplayist gathering spot, but I don't buy it. This isn't some Toxic Avenger shit, it's not like one day everybody on the RPC took a road trip together and got hit by sludge that turned them all into jaded assholes. More and more disagreements are happening and more and more times the solution is to complain about MUH TOXICITY or MUH TROLLING or something like that. I can see multiple threads recently where people are getting offended over nothing. It feels like people just want to be outraged at this point.

Domri Blackblade · **04-21-2015, 11:30 PM**

(04-21-2015, 11:26 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 11:13 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 11:10 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: People are free to disagree, of course, but it's something that I believe there's a lot of merit to.

I've had this debate with you five times over, so I'm not keen on repeating my points, but it reads a lot like high school when you use the term 'popular people' to substitute for people who get roleplay. I've been here for not even two months, but I put in the effort to find myself an RP circle.

And I'm sorry, but it grates on me when I feel like you are lumping me in with your perceived group of:

I think you're exaggerating, deliberately missing my point and trying to ridicule me rather than address the actual post. I wasn't even referring to you and it should be obvious why i can't name actual names (naming and shaming rules) to reinforce my point.

I'm not the sort of guy who holds his tongue if I see an issue. I'm not being mean, I'm not harassing anybody and I'm not breaching the site rules.

No, Graeham. What me and others have been trying to point out to you for weeks now is when you talk like that you leave it open for people to worry that you are actually talking about them. Now, since you can't just go name and shame, maybe it would be more pertinent to just not talk like that? Or find a less salty way to go about it?

The way you come off is people who found RP are just 'so popular la la la la la' and the people who can't find any can't do so because the plastics don't try to help outside of saying 'try harder.'

Askier · **04-21-2015, 11:35 PM**

Yeah...I'll be honest, used to use this website a ton.Â Once used it to organize massive world rp events.Â Was kinda fun.Â Then I disappeared for awhile cause RL stuff.Â Then I came back but am mostly just a lurker these days due to RL.

And that's the thing. RL.Â We all have one.Â We all got enough RL shit going on that we don't need more online.Â I'm honestly amazed how angry people get on this site over things that don't matter.Â Seriously, Realm Rebron is a bunch of code made of 0's and 1's. Tomorrow a solar flare could happen, fry the power grid, and keep us from playing Realm Reborn ever again.Â It's all imaginary.

People gonna disagree on lore stuff.Â Hells, the world is a mess because it's human nature to disagree.Â But we all climbed aboard the rp train, together.Â We are all -those- guys and gals other people who play mmos joke about.Â "The weird rpers."

And that's the point. We are all on the same -imaginary- train and if you want to attack or snipe or be aggressive to another group or person, only thing that is gonna happen is you will derail the train and screw everyone, including yourself, in the long run.

No one role-plays with themselves.Â That's called writing.Â Why intentionally alienate someone who might have rped with you?

Just tossing that out there for the two cents it's worth.

Cato · **04-21-2015, 11:35 PM**

(04-21-2015, 11:30 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 11:26 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 11:13 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(04-21-2015, 11:10 PM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: People are free to disagree, of course, but it's something that I believe there's a lot of merit to.

I've had this debate with you five times over, so I'm not keen on repeating my points, but it reads a lot like high school when you use the term 'popular people' to substitute for people who get roleplay. I've been here for not even two months, but I put in the effort to find myself an RP circle.

And I'm sorry, but it grates on me when I feel like you are lumping me in with your perceived group of:

I think you're exaggerating, deliberately missing my point and trying to ridicule me rather than address the actual post. I wasn't even referring to you and it should be obvious why i can't name actual names (naming and shaming rules) to reinforce my point.

I'm not the sort of guy who holds his tongue if I see an issue. I'm not being mean, I'm not harassing anybody and I'm not breaching the site rules.

No, Graeham. What me and others have been trying to point out to you for weeks now is when you talk like that you leave it open for people to worry that you are actually talking about them. Now, since you can't just go name and shame, maybe it would be more pertinent to just not talk like that? Or find a less salty way to go about it?

The way you come off is people who found RP are just 'so popular la la la la la' and the people who can't find any can't do so because the plastics don't try to help outside of saying 'try harder.'

If people have an issue with the way in which I post then they're more than welcome to contact me over a PM or in-game. I've posted this way for years - and back on the server I role-played on back in WoW (Argent Dawn EU) it was rarely an issue.

Which ties into the idea of 'culture shock' that I've put forward in the past. I'm British, I don't mince my words and I'm not trying to be mean.

My concern is that those who aren't starved for role-play aren't really in the position to claim that other role-players just need to 'try harder' when it comes to breaking into the community. I don't see how that is proving to be such a controversial point and to me it seems like misdirection.

I'm not suggesting that people are obligated to interact with other role-players. I'm simply suggesting that there's merit to the theory that many role-players come off as arrogant, out of touch, or dismissive when it comes to addressing legitimate concerns. It may not even be intentional as I've pointed out many times.

FreelanceWizard · **04-21-2015, 11:35 PM**

And on a moderation note: please stay on the topic at hand, not about people's perception of cliques and how they might impact RP. This particular line of discussion that's going on should really be handled via PM.

Domri Blackblade · **04-21-2015, 11:38 PM**

Don't worry. I'm over this nonsense at this point. It's beyond ridiculous.

Tomorrow's wednesday.

[Image: 110714_HarryPotter_MeanGirlsDoloresUmbridge.gif]

[Image: 110714_HarryPotter_MeanGirlsDoloresUmbridge.gif]

Chris Ganale · **04-21-2015, 11:41 PM**

(04-21-2015, 11:11 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: I would like to add something if I may. Bare with me as this observation comes from my long years of gaming and online rp. Im not surevhow this will be taken so again there is no negativity to this, it is an observation.

From long ago in EQ and NWK there was this free flow of ideas. "Hey wanna rp this?" or "Want to try that?" This behaviour was everywhere. Once my group in EQ wanted to rp we were a small independent kingdom. Our leader would became an ic king and we his knights. It was suggested and so we talked it over calmly and decided... nay not such a good idea. No one lost their minds, accused him (the leader) of god moding. We all talked over the good and the bad of it and agreed to try something else. I think we could talk it out as back then we were not so worried about others in control. We understood it was just a game and if someone did try to run rough shot over us, the player/community would simply ignore them. The understanding that the only person with power over you was you, allowed for more civil exploration of ideas. That fear of "don't tell me what to do" I think is the primary issue and very much a generational thing. Remember that its not just us who have played since the 90s, or 2000's, or even gamers from the last 5 years. Its all of us, multiple generations with differing values, and points of view. That may be where a lot of the misunderstandings come from.

I've gone back and forth between the trying to appease everyone and doing what I want. Mostly stick to doing what I want now and while the stress of being 100% lore-compliant and non-powered enough to suit peoples' tastes is gone, it does leave me spending my entire days getting my roulettes out of the way on two characters and then camping out in front of another FC's house waiting to see if the one person outside my own group that I RP with will even come on that day, let alone have the free time to do anything.

Arrelaine · **04-21-2015, 11:42 PM**

This thread topic and the responses in it are pretty much why I avoid almost all topic unless it's in the events, art or the occasional making connections topic. I lurk mostly, and I'll see a new thread about RP or lore discussion and think 'oh hey, this seems like an interesting topic maybe I should po- oh wait, nevermind it's already devolved into another topic or people are just arguing'.

AND THEN MAGICALLY THE SAME THING HAPPENS TO THIS THREAD. *waves her wand* Ta daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Cato · **04-21-2015, 11:44 PM**

Like I said, I'm more than willing to try and come to some sort of compromise Domri but if you're not willing to try and seek a resolution then I'd kindly ask for you to simply toss me on ignore.
Which brings me to my next point: a lot of people are claiming in this thread that 'communication is key' but I think it's pretty clear that when issues do arise there isn't a whole lot of communicating going on.

It seems to me as though 99% of issues on the RPC could easily be resolved by people agreeing to disagree with differing opinions or making a genuine attempt to reach out and discuss an issue before it is blown out of proportion.

At the end of the day it's just role-play. I'm certainly not losing any sleep over it and I would hope others are in the same position.

I don't expect everybody to get along but I do think it's fair to expect the community to be a bit more open - both in terms of there being less outright ridicule/arguments going on and in terms of more people reaching out to connect with people outside of their comfort zone.

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Complaint/Rant/Thing: What's with all the aggression lately?

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes