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Zyrusticae · **06-05-2015, 12:12 AM**

(06-04-2015, 10:07 PM)Naunet Wrote: Before I quit, I was clearing Coil turns with the best of them (and honestly not all that impressed). Needing to play "harder instances" was not the issue. ;p

An interesting class can do a lot to save otherwise uninteresting game content. That said, I've known a great deal of people through my time raiding in this and in other MMOs who really just like one, maybe two classes in the game. It's not unusual. Saying people like that are unhealthy is plain rude.

(06-04-2015, 10:18 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Eh...I think I must be narrowminded, too, since I have always been bored with DPS and tanking rotations. Â In every MMO I've ever played.

I only ever play healers because they're the only ones who really entertain me.

(06-04-2015, 10:57 PM)BroodingFicus Wrote: Count me in with the narrow minded people too I guess. I honestly have zero fun on a large percentage of the FFXIV classes. I like Warrior and I fell in love with Ninja later but my favorite roles in an MMO have always been support/healer. Unfortunately I find playing the existing healers about as much fun as watching paint dry. Astrologian and their cards/support stance sound like a dream come true but I'll have to level a crap healer I don't want to get there.Â I'm sure there are people who feel the same way about the existing tanks/dps as well.

Will I? Yes but only because I have been with the game since launch and a friend of mine is here to suffer along with me and offer rp when I feel like killing the next person who sends me on a crap errand for the MSQ. Will returning players be willing to invest that much time in order to get the classes they want? Maybe. Will new players? Maybe. But why does it have to be maybe?

Well, I really don't know what to tell you, because I manage to entertain myself playing pretty much all of the classes (besides Paladin for very obvious reasons). I really do think that lots of folks confuse not liking the core combat with not liking a particular class. Odds are very high that you simply do not like the combat system itself if every single available class bores you. It's not like class mechanics change up the gameplay that much (though roles, on the other hand, obviously do).

But this conversation really goes nowhere if no one actually mentions exactly what it is that they dislike about playing X class versus playing Y class versus playing another video game entirely. What do you actually like? What does the game fail at? How would another class fix those failures and/or pander more towards your particular sensibilities?

Addison · **06-05-2015, 12:14 AM**

Pretty sure everyone who responded negatively to Zyrusticae's post missed the point. None of you are subscribers for the sole reason that you're a White Mage. Or a Ninja. Or a Warrior. You have other motivators too, and those motivators also fall under "the entire game."

BroodingFicus · **06-05-2015, 05:43 AM**

(06-05-2015, 12:14 AM)Addison Wrote: Pretty sure everyone who responded negatively to Zyrusticae's post missed the point. None of you are subscribers for the sole reason that you're a White Mage. Or a Ninja. Or a Warrior. You have other motivators too, and those motivators also fall under "the entire game."

Â
The point was not missed. Obviously we all play for more than one reason. Most of us here RP, we have friends who play, we enjoy dungeons, PvP etc in some combination that keeps us paying monthly. However enjoying or not enjoying a class does not make an individual narrow minded and it seemed an odd thing to say personally.

Fact of the matter is some people will enjoy certain roles and classes while others will not. No one is right or wrong in that thinking. It still just seems odd that the new classes are locked up so tightly while simultaneously being used as a promoting tool. I'm not certain it will drastically effect anything aside from old players who wish to level an Au Ra as the new classes without using a Fantasia on an old character and new players/returning players who have their heart set on doing that exact thing as well. *shrug* But it bothers enough people that there has been quite a bit of talk about it. We'll see I suppose. At this point nothing is changing before the release and I'll settle for waiting the the MSQ exp buff to finish leveling my WHM along the other alt making individuals out there. *lifts kilt in salute* We shall suffer together. XD. I think we need a mascot.

Swashbuckler · **06-05-2015, 04:43 PM**

(06-05-2015, 05:43 AM)BroodingFicus Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 12:14 AM)Addison Wrote: Pretty sure everyone who responded negatively to Zyrusticae's post missed the point. None of you are subscribers for the sole reason that you're a White Mage. Or a Ninja. Or a Warrior. You have other motivators too, and those motivators also fall under "the entire game."
Â
The point was not missed. Obviously we all play for more than one reason. Most of us here RP, we have friends who play, we enjoy dungeons, PvP etc in some combination that keeps us paying monthly. However enjoying or not enjoying a class does not make an individual narrow minded and it seemed an odd thing to say personally.

Fact of the matter is some people will enjoy certain roles and classes while others will not. No one is right or wrong in that thinking. It still just seems odd that the new classes are locked up so tightly while simultaneously being used as a promoting tool. I'm not certain it will drastically effect anything aside from old players who wish to level an Au Ra as the new classes without using a Fantasia on an old character and new players/returning players who have their heart set on doing that exact thing as well. *shrug* But it bothers enough people that there has been quite a bit of talk about it. We'll see I suppose. At this point nothing is changing before the release and I'll settle for waiting the the MSQ exp buff to finish leveling my WHM along the other alt making individuals out there. *lifts kilt in salute* We shall suffer together. XD. I think we need a mascot.

See bold. Promotional tool.

Promoting the new classes, then finding that they can't play said class when they buy the thing, is misleading. I'm not sure NEW PLAYERS (or returning players who hadn't finished 2.0-2.55 MSQ) will like being lead-on. Another promotional tool they're using are the new areas (Ishgard, Dravanian Outlands, Sea of Clouds, etc.) and flying mounts. And you can't access those until you're done with 2.55. The only thing you're getting from the get-go is the ability to create Au Ra.

I think the biggest beef people have is that they aren't paying for an Expansion. They're basically paying for an "Extension" (see page 1 or 2 of this thread, there's a neat picture there somewhere) while it is being promoted as an Expansion. Just because this is how they've done it before (a la FFXI) doesn't mean they should continue to do it this way. (But we all know that they will.)

Personally, I think it's pointless to lock the new classes behind this 2.55 gate. Yes, I get that these are Ishgard-based classes (except AST, which originated from Sharlayan) but so was DRG. (Previously pointed out in this 17-page thread.) It's inevitably going to make some people unhappy. Especially new players and people returning from when they left back in 2.(whatever). But will people continue to play? I'd like to think so. I know I will. But that's only because I'm already done with the ARR MSQ's. And I want shinies. I get that the new areas are locked. And even the flying mounts. The new classes? Not so much. (Save for whatever time-sensitive things regarding MSQ's but I think that can be worked around.)

But as you can see from my signature, I have alts. Sometimes, I have no life and get levels on said alts. But not all of them are caught up with the MSQs. It sort of screws me over but this game is, by and large, an alt-unfriendly game.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-05-2015, 07:46 PM**

(06-05-2015, 04:43 PM)Cedric Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 05:43 AM)BroodingFicus Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 12:14 AM)Addison Wrote: Pretty sure everyone who responded negatively to Zyrusticae's post missed the point. None of you are subscribers for the sole reason that you're a White Mage. Or a Ninja. Or a Warrior. You have other motivators too, and those motivators also fall under "the entire game."
Â
The point was not missed. Obviously we all play for more than one reason. Most of us here RP, we have friends who play, we enjoy dungeons, PvP etc in some combination that keeps us paying monthly. However enjoying or not enjoying a class does not make an individual narrow minded and it seemed an odd thing to say personally.

Fact of the matter is some people will enjoy certain roles and classes while others will not. No one is right or wrong in that thinking. It still just seems odd that the new classes are locked up so tightly while simultaneously being used as a promoting tool. I'm not certain it will drastically effect anything aside from old players who wish to level an Au Ra as the new classes without using a Fantasia on an old character and new players/returning players who have their heart set on doing that exact thing as well. *shrug* But it bothers enough people that there has been quite a bit of talk about it. We'll see I suppose. At this point nothing is changing before the release and I'll settle for waiting the the MSQ exp buff to finish leveling my WHM along the other alt making individuals out there. *lifts kilt in salute* We shall suffer together. XD. I think we need a mascot.
See bold. Promotional tool.

Promoting the new classes, then finding that they can't play said class when they buy the thing, is misleading. I'm not sure NEW PLAYERS (or returning players who hadn't finished 2.0-2.55 MSQ) will like being lead-on. Another promotional tool they're using are the new areas (Ishgard, Dravanian Outlands, Sea of Clouds, etc.) and flying mounts. And you can't access those until you're done with 2.55. The only thing you're getting from the get-go is the ability to create Au Ra.

I think the biggest beef people have is that they aren't paying for an Expansion. They're basically paying for an "Extension" (see page 1 or 2 of this thread, there's a neat picture there somewhere) while it is being promoted as an Expansion. Just because this is how they've done it before (a la FFXI) doesn't mean they should continue to do it this way. (But we all know that they will.)

Personally, I think it's pointless to lock the new classes behind this 2.55 gate. Yes, I get that these are Ishgard-based classes (except AST, which originated from Sharlayan) but so was DRG. (Previously pointed out in this 17-page thread.) It's inevitably going to make some people unhappy. Especially new players and people returning from when they left back in 2.(whatever). But will people continue to play? I'd like to think so. I know I will. But that's only because I'm already done with the ARR MSQ's. And I want shinies. I get that the new areas are locked. And even the flying mounts. The new classes? Not so much. (Save for whatever time-sensitive things regarding MSQ's but I think that can be worked around.)

But as you can see from my signature, I have alts. Sometimes, I have no life and get levels on said alts. But not all of them are caught up with the MSQs. Â It sort of screws me over but this game is, by and large, an alt-unfriendly game.

The game is alt-unfriendly, it has always been alt-unfriendly (as of 2.0) and most likely will remain alt-unfriendly due to the way it has been coded (otherwise we would most likely have seen some changes made)

regarding an expansion vs extension, the definition of expansion is as follows:

Quote:noun 1. the act or process of expanding.
2. The state or quality of being expanded.
3. The amount or degree of expanding.
4.Â An expanded, dilated, or enlarged portion or form of a thing:

Heavensward fulfills all of that Criteria, therefore, it is an expansion.

The 2.x patch series was an extension. It extended several stories and raids through the lifetime of the 2.x cycle.

I would also say that in most other MMO's, their expansions were also extensions if you go from the criteria posted earlier in the thread, as there is typically no way to level up to the required level without killing at least some stuff in the previous expansion, which usually stops granting XP before you are at the level required for it.

Gating content behind other content does not stop it from becoming an expansion. That is simply the chosen gating method.

As to the classes being a promotional tool. Yes they are, however, they are a promotional tool with the wording 'YOU MUST COMPLETE X CONTENT BEFORE THIS CONTENT IS AVAILABLE' attached to it. It may not have been clear when pre-orders opened, I can't remember when the announcement was made, however, it has been clear that this was the stance taken for a sizable ammount of time leading up to launch.

It is in no way misleading.

Kellach Woods · **06-05-2015, 07:58 PM**

Usually in other expansions they threw something more than a new race, but y'know SE does what SE do.

Still doesn't solve the "need 7 more dudes at levels nobody's gonna give a shit about to progress" problem I keep bringing up.

Again, relying on the community is not a solution - too many problems (optimal play times, availability, classes, etc.) that makes this an unreliable solution. At least not without incentives for those who are helping out (offer level 60 tomestone bonus if you're helping out a new person in their first run through a 2.0+ dungeon would be the best way I can see this happen).

People would fucking line up for this just to get a leg-up on the level 60 content.

(Also, I'm thinking that in the case of Chrysalis and Steps you'll get a piece of Ironworks from the Story quest as a way to palliate for the fact that none of them actually grant anything.)

Swashbuckler · **06-05-2015, 08:06 PM**

(06-05-2015, 07:46 PM)Nako Wrote: As to the classes being a promotional tool. Yes they are, however, they are a promotional tool with the wording 'YOU MUST COMPLETE X CONTENT BEFORE THIS CONTENT IS AVAILABLE' attached to it. It may not have been clear when pre-orders opened, I can't remember when the announcement was made, however, it has been clear that this was the stance taken for a sizable ammount of time leading up to launch.

It is in no way misleading.

Please point me in the right direction where they say that in any of their promotional videos or any such advertisements.

It may have been simple oversight on my part, which is highly possible.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-05-2015, 08:07 PM**

(06-05-2015, 07:58 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Usually in other expansions they threw something more than a new race, but y'know SE does what SE do.

Still doesn't solve the "need 7 more dudes at levels nobody's gonna give a shit about to progress" problem I keep bringing up.

Again, relying on the community is not a solution - too many problems (optimal play times, availability, classes, etc.) that makes this an unreliable solution. At least not without incentives for those who are helping out (offer level 60 tomestone bonus if you're helping out a new person in their first run through a 2.0+ dungeon would be the best way I can see this happen).

People would fucking line up for this just to get a leg-up on the level 60 content.

(Also, I'm thinking that in the case of Chrysalis and Steps you'll get a piece of Ironworks from the Story quest as a way to palliate for the fact that none of them actually grant anything.)

They've already stated that people doing ARR content will be getting a priority over people doing HW content, so those people that do Low Level roulette will still be bumping into those people doing it for the first time, I don't think it's going to be Ironworks, more likely i90/soldiery gear.

People who currently do Lowlevel will likely keep doing low level.

and three extra classes is more than a race, it just happens that those classes are gated behind content. Also, Burning Crusade and Cataclysm only introduced new races. And even then only 2 to balance out the factions.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-05-2015, 08:13 PM**

(06-05-2015, 08:06 PM)Cedric Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 07:46 PM)Nako Wrote: As to the classes being a promotional tool. Yes they are, however, they are a promotional tool with the wording 'YOU MUST COMPLETE X CONTENT BEFORE THIS CONTENT IS AVAILABLE' attached to it. It may not have been clear when pre-orders opened, I can't remember when the announcement was made, however, it has been clear that this was the stance taken for a sizable ammount of time leading up to launch.

It is in no way misleading.

Please point me in the right direction where they say that in any of their promotional videos or any such advertisements.

It may have been simple oversight on my part, which is highly possible.

you're right, they don't say it in the adverts or the videos. Notice I never said it was in any of the videos or adverts. But in the recent Live letters and interviews where it has been promoted (also a promotional tool) it was stated.

Kellach Woods · **06-05-2015, 08:17 PM**

(06-05-2015, 08:07 PM)Nako Wrote: They've already stated that people doing ARR content will be getting a priority over people doing HW content, so those people that do Low Level roulette will still be bumping into those people doing it for the first time, I don't think it's going to be Ironworks, more likely i90/soldiery gear.

People who currently do Lowlevel will likely keep doing low level.

and three extra classes is more than a race, it just happens that those classes are gated behind content. Also, Burning Crusade and Cataclysm only introduced new races. And even then only 2 to balance out the factions.

That's not the problem - Low Level roulette shouldn't be not filled, it's 2.1 through 2.55 instances that's got me worried more than anything. Low-level roulette and level-appropriate dungeons will have MCH/DRK/AST from 30-50. However, at 50 how many will queue for Hard/Story-50 dungeons?

And obviously I meant non-gated content. BC offered a new race that had a different introduction to the world (and one that was a lot more refined than the vanilla one enough that, on Horde, many ran to the Ghostlands as a way to get better gear overall doing the 10-20 of the Blood Elves than their own), a class that was previously unavailable to the side that got it (and in a hilarious decision, the only race that didn't get the Warrior class baseline until Cataclysm) and a new profession (Jewelcrafting was introduced in BC, IIRC). Cata reimagined the entire world in addition to granting two races that had (once again) extremely different introductions to the world, as well as Archaeology.

You don't get fancy ungated distractions with HW - just the Au Ra. However, argument can be made that the fancy ungated distractions come with updates rather than expansions (Gold Saucer, requires level 15 which isn't a hard thing to do - can do it in 3 hours while falling asleep at my keyboard).

And the reason I think it's going to be ironworks is mostly because it'd be helping them out towards the target iLevel of 110 for HW content. 90/100 wouldn't.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-05-2015, 08:26 PM**

(06-05-2015, 08:17 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 08:07 PM)Nako Wrote: They've already stated that people doing ARR content will be getting a priority over people doing HW content, so those people that do Low Level roulette will still be bumping into those people doing it for the first time, I don't think it's going to be Ironworks, more likely i90/soldiery gear.

People who currently do Lowlevel will likely keep doing low level.

and three extra classes is more than a race, it just happens that those classes are gated behind content. Also, Burning Crusade and Cataclysm only introduced new races. And even then only 2 to balance out the factions.

That's not the problem - Low Level roulette shouldn't be not filled, it's 2.1 through 2.55 instances that's got me worried more than anything. Low-level roulette and level-appropriate dungeons will have MCH/DRK/AST from 30-50. However, at 50 how many will queue for Hard/Story-50 dungeons?

And obviously I meant non-gated content. BC offered a new race that had a different introduction to the world (and one that was a lot more refined than the vanilla one enough that, on Horde, many ran to the Ghostlands as a way to get better gear overall doing the 10-20 of the Blood Elves than their own), a class that was previously unavailable to the side that got it (and in a hilarious decision, the only race that didn't get the Warrior class baseline until Cataclysm) and a new profession (Jewelcrafting was introduced in BC, IIRC). Cata reimagined the entire world in addition to granting two races that had (once again) extremely different introductions to the world, as well as Archaeology.

You don't get fancy ungated distractions with HW - just the Au Ra. However, argument can be made that the fancy ungated distractions come with updates rather than expansions (Gold Saucer, requires level 15 which isn't a hard thing to do - can do it in 3 hours while falling asleep at my keyboard).

And the reason I think it's going to be ironworks is mostly because it'd be helping them out towards the target iLevel of 110 for HW content. 90/100 wouldn't.

they are likely either going to add the 2.x series of instances to Low Level with the launch of HW or introduce another tier to cover it. either way, they get bumped to the front of the queue.

I am personally happy with the ungated distractions coming outside of the expansion itself. means that the time in the expansion dev cycle isn't spent on fancy distractions....
both SoF and KoL only require an average of 90, so I doubt the target for initial content (read: leveling content) is going to be i110. Then again I could have missed an announcement when that was mentioned.

Kellach Woods · **06-05-2015, 08:34 PM**

(06-05-2015, 08:26 PM)Nako Wrote: I am personally happy with the ungated distractions coming outside of the expansion itself. means that the time in the expansion dev cycle isn't spent on fancy distractions....
both SoF and KoL only require an average of 90, so I doubt the target for initial content (read: leveling content) is going to be i110. Then again I could have missed an announcement when that was mentioned.

It was in the EU presser, in some of the translated interviews. They mentioned i110 being the target.

OttoVann · **06-05-2015, 08:40 PM**

Wait a second, do I need to have all of these shitty MSQs done before I can do Early Access?

Swashbuckler · **06-05-2015, 08:48 PM**

(06-05-2015, 08:40 PM)OttoVann Wrote: Wait a second, do I need to have all of these shitty MSQs done before I can do Early Access?

I think it's safe to say that you'd need to finish 2.55 before entering Ishgard during Early Access. And opening the three new jobs.

Au Ra will be available from the get-go.

BroodingFicus · **06-05-2015, 10:27 PM**

(06-05-2015, 08:48 PM)Cedric Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 08:40 PM)OttoVann Wrote: Wait a second, do I need to have all of these shitty MSQs done before I can do Early Access?
I think it's safe to say that you'd need to finish 2.55 before entering Ishgard during Early Access. And opening the three new jobs.

Au Ra will be available from the get-go.

Yep. That seems to be the way of it at this point. *pets alts sadly*

If I didn't believe the MSQ should be account wide when completed before, I certainly do now. Its atrocious on replay and it isn't always great the first time through anyhow. I'd say each installment about five or six of the quests are essential and the rest are ridiculous padding where the Warrior of Light/main character is sent on stupid errands like he/she secretly had a partial lobotomy and forgot they actually had better things to do before they agreed to delay saving the freakin' world to get everyone some tea.Â

Do it once. Done. Its replay value is 0. And if you don't want me making alts, don't give me new races. Up until now I was willing to accept that making alts was my decision and I would just have to suffer for it. But with Au Ra, there is a very mixed message here. Have a new race but oh, don't make new characters or we'll make things supremely dull for you and we won't even let you be the class you want. HAVE A NICE DAY.

Suffice it to say I imagine myself in the MSQ with my Au Ra AST to be being about as much fun as laying on a bed of fire ants. *clicks angrily through dialogue*Â

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Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

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