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LiadansWhisper · **06-08-2015, 08:34 PM**

(06-08-2015, 05:08 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: I think where you're getting confused is that I am referring to outright refusing to play a game - not even attempting to try it out - because the given classes don't appeal to you immediately as being 'narrowminded', NOT simply having a preference for one role or one class or the other.

Considering that White Mage and Scholar share pre-requisite classes, and considering that both Jobs pull cross-class skills from each other, I would be extremely surprised if the person in question has never tried out the other job. Â What's more, a good White Mage is going to have a few more cross class skills from other classes, meaning that you end up trying other classes out.

Doesn't mean you'll like them. Â It's perfectly sane and reasonable to say, "I don't like this because I tried it out and it sucked."

BTW, it's also perfectly reasonable to say, "I don't like this because I looked into this class - though I didn't try it out -and nothing about it appeals to me." Â That's completely reasonable, even if you think it's "narrowminded."

Mercer · **06-08-2015, 08:36 PM**

Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

Maybe a PSA post needs to get made for new players going into Heavensward. Hrm.

Kellach Woods · **06-08-2015, 08:43 PM**

Ideally I'd straight up say for DRK level PLD - you NEED Provoke. This is not an option Sad

BroodingFicus · **06-08-2015, 08:46 PM**

(06-08-2015, 08:36 PM)Oswin Wrote: Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

Maybe a PSA post needs to get made for new players going into Heavensward. Hrm.

Cross class is important and many people would, I think, go back and level up to a certain point in certain classes to get any abilities that might be valid (not sure if we know which classes will cross yet or not but still). However generally this is something you would be able to do on your own time. Level your main job then go back and work on cross classes while technically already being fully capable of doing content. It also seems logical to learn your actual job /then/ mix in other bits rather than the reverse where you learn how to play a WHM per say, switch to AST and suddenly lose most of those abilities for completely Â new ones.Â

That said they also are locking it behind story which means unlocking the new jobs also forces you to do all the MSQ content past 50. Why not do it right away? Because unless you have a love for your class, leveling 1-50 (60? Not sure if there will be cross class skills added higher) and doing the whole MSQ to 2.55 is not likely to be an enjoyable ride. However, if you can enjoy the class you want, you have motivation to slowly work on getting extra little skills through cross classes that make you and your parties life easier. At least that's how I would see it and how I felt when I had to level Paladin for my Warrior. I hated Paladin but I did it because after playing Warrior I could see the benefit and I would work on it until I got frustrated and switched back over to overpower things in the face instead.

Mercer · **06-08-2015, 09:25 PM**

(06-08-2015, 08:46 PM)BroodingFicus Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 08:36 PM)Oswin Wrote: Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

Maybe a PSA post needs to get made for new players going into Heavensward. Hrm.

Cross class is important and many people would, I think, go back and level up to a certain point in certain classes to get any abilities that might be valid (not sure if we know which classes will cross yet or not but still). However generally this is something you would be able to do on your own time. Level your main job then go back and work on cross classes while technically already being fully capable of doing content. It also seems logical to learn your actual job /then/ mix in other bits rather than the reverse where you learn how to play a WHM per say, switch to AST and suddenly lose most of those abilities for completely Â new ones.Â

That said they also are locking it behind story which means unlocking the new jobs also forces you to do all the MSQ content past 50. Why not do it right away? Because unless you have a love for your class, leveling 1-50 (60? Not sure if there will be cross class skills added higher) and doing the whole MSQ to 2.55 is not likely to be an enjoyable ride. However, if you can enjoy the class you want, you have motivation to slowly work on getting extra little skills through cross classes that make you and your parties life easier. At least that's how I would see it and how I felt when I had to level Paladin for my Warrior. I hated Paladin but I did it because after playing Warrior I could see the benefit and I would work on it until I got frustrated and switched back over to overpower things in the face instead.

It's more of a recommendation to not only ease them into the game, but also ease them into their role. All but THM are directly linked to their role in the game. This is, again, more of a way to help people understand that they may not be able to use their preferred class right away but also encourage them knowing that their efforts leveling their class actually gives them rewards.Â

In a perfect world, we would have access to these new jobs right away. We don't, so the best we can do is adapt and make the best of what we have.

Zyrusticae · **06-08-2015, 09:27 PM**

(06-08-2015, 08:18 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: I've done pettier than that.

I refuse to play Skullgirls 'cause I hate Alex Ahab's character designs.

To be honest, I feel that is a bigger consideration than the class make-up of an MMORPG.

Because, for the most part, there should be at least one class in any given lineup that appeals to you, since all of the major niches WILL be covered from the start, unless it's a game that's being shoved out the door too soon or something like that.

The art style, on the other hand, either appeals to you or doesn't. I don't like most major western MMORPG art styles, so that alone causes me to pass on a fair number of them (especially World of Warcraft which I find anathema to my sensibilities). I just can't fully imagine someone who can't find SOMETHING they like in the quadrinity of warrior-rogue-mage-priest.

(06-08-2015, 08:34 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Considering that White Mage and Scholar share pre-requisite classes, and considering that both Jobs pull cross-class skills from each other, I would be extremely surprised if the person in question has never tried out the other job. Â What's more, a good White Mage is going to have a few more cross class skills from other classes, meaning that you end up trying other classes out.

Doesn't mean you'll like them. Â It's perfectly sane and reasonable to say, "I don't like this because I tried it out and it sucked."

BTW, it's also perfectly reasonable to say, "I don't like this because I looked into this class - though I didn't try it out -and nothing about it appeals to me." Â That's completely reasonable, even if you think it's "narrowminded."

Well, I don't disagree.

Thing is, I'm still talking about prospective buyers here. People who've actually played the game at least for some time have a basis with which to make some kind of judgment. But a prospective buyer/trial user should have at least one class among the initial lineup that appeals to them if it covers every one of the usual niches.

I mean, I'm trying to imagine the person who looks at Paladin, Warrior, Dragoon, Monk, Bard, Ninja, Black Mage, Summoner, White Mage, and Scholar and thinks "ehhhh.... I don't like any of those". How boring and one-track can you possibly be? I don't mind alienating myself from folks who think that way at all. There's no way I could find common ground with them. Not sure I'd even want to play with them. "EVERYTHING ELSE is conceptually boring... except for MY class!" Yeah, thanks, but no thanks.

And this is, of course, assuming that the genre itself even appeals to them to begin with. Obviously, someone who just doesn't care for swords-and-spells high fantasy shouldn't even be looking at such titles to begin with. I certainly wouldn't recommend someone who only cares for cyberpunk and sci-fi settings to look into the game just because Machinist and Allagans (and, to a lesser extent, Garleans) are a thing, or else they'll just be set up for major disappointment. But they can already make that judgment themselves, and I'd much rather they couch their impressions in those terms instead of saying something clearly ridiculous and absurd like "none of the classes appeal to me!" when, really, the game's setting doesn't appeal to you so you should probably be looking the other way to begin with.

Which I still think is absurd, because, seriously, what?

But I will freely admit I am narrow-minded on this aspect, because I only ever seem to obtain ever-widening interests as I grow older. Things that I used to think were boring are now just the most fascinating things in the world to me. I feel like there is no limit to the things I want to explore and try out, and trying to imagine the people who only ever want to stick within a certain predefined niche only ever depresses me.

And again, since I can't emphasize this enough, your experiences are yours! If you've actually played the game and given it more than a short test-drive I can't refute your experiences whatsoever. It's only the people who've never even touched the game and are passing judgments on the game's roster that I find much to question.

Well, heh, I've already invested more energy into this shpiel than I really should have. I don't feel that strongly about it. It was just an idle observation and now I feel the need to explain and defend my thought processes. Can't be helped, I suppose. Anything that can be negatively construed gets that kind of response...

V'aleera · **06-08-2015, 10:02 PM**

(06-08-2015, 09:27 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: all of the major niches WILL be covered from the start

I want to DPS with a sword. What class do I pick?

This is an extremely relevant question, by the way. When I was looking for MMOs to play after leaving WoW the fact that I could play a spear focused class was literally the only thing that pushed me over the edge into giving this game a shot.

Is it narrow-minded and picky? Yes. Is the average consumer narrow-minded and picky? Yes.

Mercer · **06-08-2015, 10:04 PM**

(06-08-2015, 10:02 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 09:27 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: all of the major niches WILL be covered from the start
I want to DPS with a sword. What class do I pick?

None of them.

Gegenji · **06-08-2015, 10:08 PM**

(06-08-2015, 10:04 PM)Oswin Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 10:02 PM)Intaki Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 09:27 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: all of the major niches WILL be covered from the start
I want to DPS with a sword. What class do I pick?
None of them.

ROG/NIN, then get a couple of the knives that are big enough to BE swords! Thumbsup

Viola · **06-08-2015, 10:36 PM**

While I don't know about you guys (and girls), I plan to dive straight into Heavensward and get DRK ASAP and get it all ready for Heavensward.

With that said, it's going to be fun learning the class from scratch.

Naunet · **06-09-2015, 12:36 AM**

(06-08-2015, 08:36 PM)Oswin Wrote: Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

Not all the way to 50 they won't.

Aduu Avagnar · **06-09-2015, 01:19 AM**

(06-09-2015, 12:36 AM)Naunet Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 08:36 PM)Oswin Wrote: Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

Not all the way to 50 they won't.

Who knows, there could be some tasty ones with Heavensward.

Mercer · **06-09-2015, 01:43 AM**

(06-09-2015, 12:36 AM)Naunet Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 08:36 PM)Oswin Wrote: Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

Not all the way to 50 they won't.

I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say. The truth of the matter is that new classes are locked in Ishgard. New players can't play them and must play another class. Why not play a class that will benefit your future main class?

Tyndles · **06-09-2015, 02:17 AM**

(06-06-2015, 12:18 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 11:20 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:
(06-05-2015, 10:57 PM)Nako Wrote: The thing is, the game is designed to not need alts. The only downside to that is the inventory space. The entire game is built around the fact that you can do everything on one character. I don't see that changing as it is a core feature of the game.

You forgot tome caps, cross-class skills, gear lockouts, etc.

FFXIV punishes you for doing everything on one character to begin with, contrary to how it's advertised. Either have one or the other, you know?

I honestly don't agree with you on this one. Â It's not "punishment." Â It's a way of extending the content, and it's practiced in one form or another by every successful MMO.

(06-05-2015, 11:36 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Staples in some MMOs. Not that it changes anything just because another game is guilty of the same flaws. It's punishment via tedium, plain and simple.

Either make multi-classing viable on one character outside of the magic classes or give those eight character slots some incentive. It's really not that hard either way.

Staples in every successful, raiding-focused MMO. Â WoW does it. Â SWTOR does it. Â Rift does it. Â Wildstar does it. Â Name me a wildly successful MMO with a serious raiding endgame that doesn't engage in content gating via tomes, raid lockouts, etc?

(06-05-2015, 11:46 PM)Cedric Wrote: That still does not explain why they chose to give us 8 character slots. And if we choose to use up all of those other slots, we're punished by having to go through the MSQ's again. (I wouldn't mind having to level them, I actually like leveling.)

By all intents and purposes, they should have just charged us the price of the game, the $14.95 a month sub, and only give us 1 character slot. Period.

But I get that this is how they made their game. So... /shrug

There are some people who will play enough to fill those slots up and actually level the characters in all the classes. Â I personally think it's insane, but they do it.

I don't really care if I have 8 character slots or not. Â I'm very content with my one character.

(06-05-2015, 11:56 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Not exactly. Say you pick up BRD, but you've been a mage at heart. Well, guess what? Now you have to pick up 34 levels of LNC just so you won't run out of TP and have a reasonable burst, all skills you won't be able to use on anything but those two classes. That is hardly an incentive, especially with all the gear nonsense; only soldiery gear is able to be acquired on a reasonable time frame. Everything else is either luck and/or a grind.

And I'm sorry, but if you have to artificially elongate progress in a video game to keep people in it, then the problem lies not with the pacing, but with the core design itself. Ironically, FFXIV doesn't have this problem, so why does SQX bother? Cosmetics and housing are the only real end-game, not a hackneyed treadmill that only a minority will enjoy for a few months before picking up the next new shiny MMO.

That's a personal opinion. Â There are many people very devoted to the PvE endgame, and you have no right to denigrate their focus.

What's more, you were complaining earlier that SE won't let us grind Tomes and gear all day erry day, but now you're complaining about having to grind classes to get cross-classes. Â I'm entirely confused as to how you are working this out logically.

(06-09-2015, 01:43 AM)Oswin Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 12:36 AM)Naunet Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 08:36 PM)Oswin Wrote: Given the nature of cross skill abilities and the ease of switching to the new jobs once you meet the requirements, I see no reason why people wouldn't want to level an off class first. Truth of the matter is that people are going to have to level that cross skill class at some point, why not just do it right away?

Not all the way to 50 they won't.

I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say. The truth of the matter is that new classes are locked in Ishgard. New players can't play them and must play another class. Why not play a class that will benefit your future main class?

I think he means that you don't need to play the class to 50 to get all the benefits out of it, and if they find the class dreadful, why stick with it to 50? Â It would be faster (because it'd be more fun, and you'd play more often this way) to get paladin to..whatever you need for provoke then start over with something that MIGHT be more entertaining. Â Â

I really wish they'd just open up the gates to everyone and let people mad dash at level 30 to get to Ishgard for the new classes. Â That would be funny.

Kellach Woods · **06-09-2015, 07:23 AM**

(06-09-2015, 02:17 AM)Tyndles Wrote: I think he means that you don't need to play the class to 50 to get all the benefits out of it, and if they find the class dreadful, why stick with it to 50? Â It would be faster (because it'd be more fun, and you'd play more often this way) to get paladin to..whatever you need for provoke then start over with something that MIGHT be more entertaining. Â Â

I really wish they'd just open up the gates to everyone and let people mad dash at level 30 to get to Ishgard for the new classes. Â That would be funny.

You'll get armory bonus up to 22 (Provoke is at 22) so you'll recoup some of the time lost, but it's still lost time compared to everything else.

TECHNICALLY if you hate PLD (and trust me PLD is dreadful to level until you reach level 26) you should then move on to MRD/WAR because you'll at least have Mercy Stroke, which is a good thing to splash onto anything that can take it. You get Foresight very early on too, which is a decent cross-class defense buff.

(This is for DRK, mind)

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Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

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