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Fox · **06-09-2015, 07:26 AM**

(06-09-2015, 02:17 AM)Tyndles Wrote: I really wish they'd just open up the gates to everyone and let people mad dash at level 30 to get to Ishgard for the new classes. Â That would be funny.

This is highly unlikely due to MSQ-storyline, I am informed.

Tyndles · **06-09-2015, 07:47 AM**

(06-09-2015, 07:26 AM)Foxberry Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:17 AM)Tyndles Wrote: I really wish they'd just open up the gates to everyone and let people mad dash at level 30 to get to Ishgard for the new classes. Â That would be funny.

This is highly unlikely due to MSQ-storyline, I am informed.

But just imagine the little level 30 newbie corpses littering the ground. Â You're dropping the ball here, SE.

Addison · **06-09-2015, 12:27 PM**

A lot of the design choices people are saying are bad are pretty standard in both eastern and western MMOs. And it's not going to change so long as games that follow that formula turn a profit.

John Smedley (president of DBG, formerly SoE) might like to think that the current MMO formula is dead, but that's only because the games his company produces are either failures at launch, or on life support and haven't made money in years.

Telluride · **06-09-2015, 12:52 PM**

(06-09-2015, 12:27 PM)Addison Wrote: A lot of the design choices people are saying are bad are pretty standard in both eastern and western MMOs. And it's not going to change so long as games that follow that formula turn a profit.

John Smedley (president of DBG, formerly SoE) might like to think that the current MMO formula is dead, but that's only because the games his company produces are either failures at launch, or on life support and haven't made money in years.

...and the threat lives with EQ Next, in this case. When your company has earned itself the moniker, "They Break Games", you might want to tread very lightly and watch your step.

The formula itself isn't gonna be enough to sell games anymore, because MMOs are a time investment above and beyond the usual console game, and with so many on the same formulas, people will find the one they can stick with and ride those rails. The only reasons that EQN has attracted so much attention are that many people have big nostalgia for EQ and EQ2, and the new title has been promising some really big changes to the very core concepts of the MMO formula. And now, the latest news from them hasn't been promising, and without those new concepts, I can't see nostalgia alone keeping EQN afloat if it DOES manage to one day come out.

The nearer feature seems to be a resurgence of Sandbox play. Star Citizen can make it big this way, but it's got some hurdles. All the people dumping massive money into it to get their Special Spaceships will have fun, but will people on a smaller budget just be little fish in their big pond, and not be players so much as CONTENT for those big spenders? Also, Half of Eve Online seems to be threatening to jump into Star Citizen and turn it into a Gankfest, if they possibly can, and speaking for myself, if I wanted to play Douchebags and Spreadsheets again, I'd be playing EVE already.

But a real sandbox, one that isn't just a playground for trolls, that would make some bank.

The old MMO formula isn't a BAD thing - we just have a saturated market for it, and reskinning the Same Old Thing yet again isn't gonna hack it anymore.

Naunet · **06-09-2015, 12:56 PM**

(06-09-2015, 01:43 AM)Oswin Wrote: I don't know if you understand what I'm trying to say. The truth of the matter is that new classes are locked in Ishgard. New players can't play them and must play another class. Why not play a class that will benefit your future main class?

Because I don't want to play a class I don't enjoy longer than absolutely necessary? Why else did I pick to level WHM first on my main and only later go back to boost acn and thm to needed levels for cross-classing? The level grind without quests is horrendouslyÂ boring, made even less bearable by having to play a class I don't want to.

Aya · **06-09-2015, 01:10 PM**

(06-09-2015, 12:27 PM)Addison Wrote: A lot of the design choices people are saying are bad are pretty standard in both eastern and western MMOs. And it's not going to change so long as games that follow that formula turn a profit.

I don't really have anything new to say that I haven't said already, but I just want to comment that I don't think any other game (at least that I've played) has anything approaching the MSQ, and its particular favor of massive time investment and complete requirement.Â This isn't asking a new player to level up to enter the new content, that is in keeping with standard MMO design.Â Its a very different, and much more burdensome, requirement.

Telluride · **06-09-2015, 01:15 PM**

(06-09-2015, 01:10 PM)Aya Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 12:27 PM)Addison Wrote: A lot of the design choices people are saying are bad are pretty standard in both eastern and western MMOs. And it's not going to change so long as games that follow that formula turn a profit.
I don't really have anything new to say that I haven't said already, but I just want to comment that I don't think any other game (at least that I've played) has anything approaching the MSQ, and its particular favor of massive time investment and complete requirement.Â This isn't asking a new player to level up to enter the new content, that is in keeping with standard MMO design.Â Its a very different, and much more burdensome, requirement.

The difference being that a lot of other MMOs use their main story as a sort of tour guide, giving the player the sense of having a reason to be here, here, or here, other than just because it's there.

FFXIV uses it very deliberately to lock things away, a carrot-and-stick approach, to deny a lot of otherwise on-level or even under-level content unless you're willing to play along with the program. It's the rail-shooter of storylines.

We appear to still be debating the other elephant in the room - making playing a second class not just an option, but a total requirement if you plan to have your OWN class reach its potential. I still like being able to do multiple classes, and enjoy playing around with it, but SE doesn't want you NOT to do All Of The Classes, to the point where the "option" becomes a bit of a hazy thing. It's an odd bird of a choice, stuck between rigid class roles of most MMOs, and skill/ability/gear -based systems like Fallen Earth and The Secret World, for example.

Cato · **06-09-2015, 01:19 PM**

(06-09-2015, 01:15 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 01:10 PM)Aya Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 12:27 PM)Addison Wrote: A lot of the design choices people are saying are bad are pretty standard in both eastern and western MMOs. And it's not going to change so long as games that follow that formula turn a profit.
I don't really have anything new to say that I haven't said already, but I just want to comment that I don't think any other game (at least that I've played) has anything approaching the MSQ, and its particular favor of massive time investment and complete requirement.Â This isn't asking a new player to level up to enter the new content, that is in keeping with standard MMO design.Â Its a very different, and much more burdensome, requirement.

The difference being that a lot of other MMOs use their main story as a sort of tour guide, giving the player the sense of having a reason to be here, here, or here, other than just because it's there.

FFXIV uses it very deliberately to lock things away, a carrot-and-stick approach, to deny a lot of otherwise on-level or even under-level content unless you're willing to play along with the program. It's the rail-shooter of storylines.

At the same time FFXIV is also very popular because it's a love letter to fans of the franchise and quite a lot of those fans are in it for the story just as much as they're in it for the game's mechanics. Those who want the standard 'cookie cutter' MMO experience have a wealth of alternate options available to them.

Telluride · **06-09-2015, 01:25 PM**

(06-09-2015, 01:19 PM)Graeham Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 01:15 PM)Telluride Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 01:10 PM)Aya Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 12:27 PM)Addison Wrote: A lot of the design choices people are saying are bad are pretty standard in both eastern and western MMOs. And it's not going to change so long as games that follow that formula turn a profit.
I don't really have anything new to say that I haven't said already, but I just want to comment that I don't think any other game (at least that I've played) has anything approaching the MSQ, and its particular favor of massive time investment and complete requirement.Â This isn't asking a new player to level up to enter the new content, that is in keeping with standard MMO design.Â Its a very different, and much more burdensome, requirement.

The difference being that a lot of other MMOs use their main story as a sort of tour guide, giving the player the sense of having a reason to be here, here, or here, other than just because it's there.

FFXIV uses it very deliberately to lock things away, a carrot-and-stick approach, to deny a lot of otherwise on-level or even under-level content unless you're willing to play along with the program. It's the rail-shooter of storylines.

At the same time FFXIV is also very popular because it's a love letter to fans of the franchise and quite a lot of those fans are in it for the story just as much as they're in it for the game's mechanics. Those who want the standard 'cookie cutter' MMO experience have a wealth of alternate options available to them.

True, but this thread, and a lot of others, are noting that the "love letter", to push the metaphor, is hard to read, is full of contradictions, and wants us to be The Hero Of Eorzea while simultaneously, and much too often, yanking our agency, and the character's, away from us. I've said enough of that... well, too many times... to go deeper into it here.

Aya · **06-09-2015, 01:36 PM**

(06-09-2015, 01:19 PM)Graeham Wrote: At the same time FFXIV is also very popular because it's a love letter to fans of the franchise and quite a lot of those fans are in it for the story just as much as they're in it for the game's mechanics. Those who want the standard 'cookie cutter' MMO experience have a wealth of alternate options available to them.

Sure.. that's exactly it.Â It is different, it isn't "expected" and it isn't "standard".Â There's room to appreciate that, and there's room to criticize that.Â Smile

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-09-2015, 01:43 PM**

I think FFXIV is a pretty good game and I like it...

[Image: MXU9gTj.jpg]

I think all this will be forgotten in two weeks time.

Mountie · **06-09-2015, 02:00 PM**

(06-09-2015, 01:43 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I think FFXIV is a pretty good game and I like it...

I think all this will be forgotten in two weeks time.

First. Stealing the image.

Second. I would have been upset if I had missed out on story. Even the side stuff. It is just such a good story. At least, to me.

shotgunbadger · **06-09-2015, 02:06 PM**

I don't think anyone is saying this is some game ruining problem but yea, as a dude just coming back who's last storyline progress was getting a chocobo and who's highest class is currently like 20 and it's not even the class I want to be, it's a little annoying that a major part of the game experience is gonna be totally locked out, especially considering I think those jobs are really cool. Like yea I'm not gonna be miserable just going with black mage through the story, but I wish I at least had access to the options. It's not the worst thing ever done in an MMO, but it's an annoying and frankly really outdated MMO philosophy to have, the old 'expansion packs are just for people who are done with the game right now' train of thought is really not an awesome one.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-09-2015, 02:11 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:06 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: I don't think anyone is saying this is some game ruining problem but yea, as a dude just coming back who's last storyline progress was getting a chocobo and who's highest class is currently like 20 and it's not even the class I want to be, it's a little annoying that a major part of the game experience is gonna be totally locked out, especially considering I think those jobs are really cool. Like yea I'm not gonna be miserable just going with black mage through the story, but I wish I at least had access to the options. It's not the worst thing ever done in an MMO, but it's an annoying and frankly really outdated MMO philosophy to have, the old 'expansion packs are just for people who are done with the game right now' train of thought is really not an awesome one.

Again, this 'Outdated MMO philosophy' is currently the only subscription MMO besides WoW that's making money.

I think people are just used to F2P MMOs, which don't care how long you stay. They want you to show up, blow 50 bux in the cash shop, then come back in a few months to try out the next new gimmick.

***RiniKett*** · **06-09-2015, 02:27 PM**

As someone who has played WoW religiously for the past 9 years, and who has tried -almost- every MMORPG that is out there to date, Final Fantasy makes it hard not to drop my Raid team in WoW and come over full time. Then again, if I actually had to pay for WoW I might not even be on it anymore. They came out with the Token system recently so you can pay with in game currency...

But all of that aside, FF14 did really damn good at giving their players what they want. I heard that the original FF14 had the worst launch in the history of MMOs, not proven, and if that is so, then it's even more impressive. Things might be different from what people in other MMOs are use to, but I personally hope they continue to make things different, to change the standard and keep things that you have to work towards. Anyone who has been a loyal WoWer from Vanilla on can tell you the game got less and less enjoyable as they simplified things. But that's just my opinion.

*tosses in two pennies.*

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Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

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