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Naunet · **06-09-2015, 02:27 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:11 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I think people are just used to F2P MMOs, which don't care how long you stay. They want you to show up, blow 50 bux in the cash shop, then come back in a few months to try out the next new gimmick.

The debate surrounding this design mechanic has nothing to do with F2P vs P2P (though I'll point out that I'm one of the most ardent defenders of P2P you'll find out there, and I am anything but okay with this Heavensward decision).

shotgunbadger · **06-09-2015, 02:32 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:11 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:06 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: I don't think anyone is saying this is some game ruining problem but yea, as a dude just coming back who's last storyline progress was getting a chocobo and who's highest class is currently like 20 and it's not even the class I want to be, it's a little annoying that a major part of the game experience is gonna be totally locked out, especially considering I think those jobs are really cool. Like yea I'm not gonna be miserable just going with black mage through the story, but I wish I at least had access to the options. It's not the worst thing ever done in an MMO, but it's an annoying and frankly really outdated MMO philosophy to have, the old 'expansion packs are just for people who are done with the game right now' train of thought is really not an awesome one.

Again, this 'Outdated MMO philosophy' is currently the only subscription MMO besides WoW that's making money.

I think people are just used to F2P MMOs, which don't care how long you stay. They want you to show up, blow 50 bux in the cash shop, then come back in a few months to try out the next new gimmick.

I'd argue that profitable has nothing to do with outdated or not. I don't deny FFXIV is successful, I love that it's successful because I love this game, but we are rapidly approaching a time where MMOs are going to have to do some real deep looks at what is and isn't a good way to keep players, and I just can't imagine 'make expansions that have absolutely nothing for people under the level cap and then some thanks to ilevel being the gate' is going to stick around.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-09-2015, 02:36 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:32 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:11 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:06 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: I don't think anyone is saying this is some game ruining problem but yea, as a dude just coming back who's last storyline progress was getting a chocobo and who's highest class is currently like 20 and it's not even the class I want to be, it's a little annoying that a major part of the game experience is gonna be totally locked out, especially considering I think those jobs are really cool. Like yea I'm not gonna be miserable just going with black mage through the story, but I wish I at least had access to the options. It's not the worst thing ever done in an MMO, but it's an annoying and frankly really outdated MMO philosophy to have, the old 'expansion packs are just for people who are done with the game right now' train of thought is really not an awesome one.

Again, this 'Outdated MMO philosophy' is currently the only subscription MMO besides WoW that's making money.

I think people are just used to F2P MMOs, which don't care how long you stay. They want you to show up, blow 50 bux in the cash shop, then come back in a few months to try out the next new gimmick.

I'd argue that profitable has nothing to do with outdated or not. I don't deny FFXIV is successful, I love that it's successful because I love this game, but we are rapidly approaching a time where MMOs are going to have to do some real deep looks at what is and isn't a good way to keep players, and I just can't imagine 'make expansions that have absolutely nothing for people under the level cap and then some thanks to ilevel being the gate' is going to stick around.

I think lots of other MMOs have done what you say and they've all been forced to go Free to Play.

Do you have a counter example of a subscription MMO that has done the things you suggest and been successful?

I could name a dozen or more who have done thing things you've said and gone f2p.

I would enjoy if you could bring even one statistic or piece of evidence forward that supports your view besides blind conjecture and anecdote. There are lots of other MMOs that do what you say, so why not just enjoy those instead of saying this one should change?

Naunet · **06-09-2015, 02:37 PM**

Are you seriously trying to suggest that the way an MMO handles an expansion is the reason behind it going F2P? Most that I've witnessed made the transition to F2P well before any expansion. The P2P/F2P debate doesn't really belong in this discussion.

Also the argument that a player should just pack up and go to another game because X game does something a player doesn't like doesn't really fly with me. There are a million reasons to like or dislike a game. You do not have to accept the whole package to want to play the game, and it's perfectly reasonable to point out observed flaws in that package.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-09-2015, 02:43 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:37 PM)Naunet Wrote: Are you seriously trying to suggest that the way an MMO handles an expansion is the reason behind it going F2P? Most that I've witnessed made the transition to F2P well before any expansion. The P2P/F2P debate doesn't really belong in this discussion.

Also the argument that a player should just pack up and go to another game because X game does something a player doesn't like doesn't really fly with me. There are a million reasons to like or dislike a game. You do not have to accept the whole package to want to play the game, and it's perfectly reasonable to point out observed flaws in that package.

People in this thread are arguing that dark chocolate should be sweeter, while there is a shelf full of milk chocolate right next to them. People are criticizing the very things that makes FFXIV successful. It's not just the expansion part. People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them. Aka, they want it to be like a F2P game.

It boggles my mind.

Naunet · **06-09-2015, 02:47 PM**

I... really don't think that locking astrologian, dark knight, and machinist behind a 50 level and MSQ grind on a different class is "what makes FFXIV successful". At all. There is nothing about buying a game and an expac and expecting to have access to all the classes in said game that is "like a F2P game".

You mischaracterize arguments so much, I am starting to think you're only in here to troll. The aggression in your posts certainly suggests such.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-09-2015, 02:51 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:47 PM)Naunet Wrote: I... really don't think that locking astrologian, dark knight, and machinist behind a 50 level and MSQ grind on a different class is "what makes FFXIV successful". At all. There is nothing about buying a game and an expac and expecting to have access to all the classes in said game that is "like a F2P game".

You mischaracterize arguments so much, I am starting to think you're only in here to troll. The aggression in your posts certainly suggests such.

You may not think that, but I do. If someone isn't willing to to put in the effort they shouldn't play the expansion, let alone the base game.

The developers seem to 100% agree with this assessment, which is why they're doing it this way. You may not like this philosophy, but life isn't fair. As I said there are other games which do well financially with the 'Give players what they want' model, and they're all free to play.

I don't appreciate being called a troll for not agreeing with you. Is everyone who disagrees with you a troll?

shotgunbadger · **06-09-2015, 02:52 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:36 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:32 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:11 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:06 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: I don't think anyone is saying this is some game ruining problem but yea, as a dude just coming back who's last storyline progress was getting a chocobo and who's highest class is currently like 20 and it's not even the class I want to be, it's a little annoying that a major part of the game experience is gonna be totally locked out, especially considering I think those jobs are really cool. Like yea I'm not gonna be miserable just going with black mage through the story, but I wish I at least had access to the options. It's not the worst thing ever done in an MMO, but it's an annoying and frankly really outdated MMO philosophy to have, the old 'expansion packs are just for people who are done with the game right now' train of thought is really not an awesome one.

Again, this 'Outdated MMO philosophy' is currently the only subscription MMO besides WoW that's making money.

I think people are just used to F2P MMOs, which don't care how long you stay. They want you to show up, blow 50 bux in the cash shop, then come back in a few months to try out the next new gimmick.

I'd argue that profitable has nothing to do with outdated or not. I don't deny FFXIV is successful, I love that it's successful because I love this game, but we are rapidly approaching a time where MMOs are going to have to do some real deep looks at what is and isn't a good way to keep players, and I just can't imagine 'make expansions that have absolutely nothing for people under the level cap and then some thanks to ilevel being the gate' is going to stick around.

I think lots of other MMOs have done what you say and they've all been forced to go Free to Play.

Do you have a counter example of a subscription MMO that has done the things you suggest and been successful?

I could name a dozen or more who have done thing things you've said and gone f2p.

I would enjoy if you could bring even one statistic or piece of evidence forward that supports your view besides blind conjecture and anecdote. There are lots of other MMOs that do what you say, so why not just enjoy those instead of saying this one should change?

Well ok now we're just gonna insult eachother because even though I said over and over I like this game and think this one thing is a poor choice, I clearly am unhappy with the entire game. That's a cool and adult way to talk about things, you are an awesome person.

Most MMOs that go f2p go long before their first expansions, can YOU point to an MMO that was going along just fine, released an expansion that...I don't know apparently you're butthurt because I don't like the classes all being level cap only so I guess 'added a class that you can make at creation' is the proper analogy for other MMOs? And then after that expansion suddenly their numbers fell like rocks for reasons and they had to go F2P? Please, name one of the dozen you have on file because I can't think of one.

And no for the record I won't be leaving FFXIV, as I said in I think all my other posts in this thread, I really like this game despite this one annoyance. Ya know, because you can like and enjoy something despite thinking one thing it does isn't great.

Aya · **06-09-2015, 02:54 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:43 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them.

Mischaracterize much?Â Seriously Nat.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-09-2015, 02:57 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:54 PM)Aya Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:43 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them.
Mischaracterize much?Â Seriously Nat.

How am I doing that? Is it not the position of many people in this thread that they should have access to the new classes in heavensward simply by purchasing the expansion?

Lots of people seem opposed to the idea of finishing the 2.0 content to do so.

I think that is an accurate assessment, if its wrong, someone who is complaining please clarify what you actually want.

Aaron · **06-09-2015, 02:58 PM**

Something I don't understand and I hope no one takes this the wrong way. It's a honest question.Â

They announced HW needed 2.55 completion before they allowed pre orders right? Â Well, if you know you aren't gonna be able to play it, why pre order it along with the hype? Wouldn't it save a lot of hurt emotions and such to just wait till youre up to date and then buy the expac?Â

Unless you ordered for the dragon statue or something. Then that's different.

Aya · **06-09-2015, 03:02 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:57 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: How am I doing that? Is it not the position of many people in this thread that they should have access to the new classes in heavensward simply by purchasing the expansion?

Lots of people seem opposed to the idea of finishing the 2.0 content to do so.

I think that is an accurate assessment, if its wrong, someone who is complaining please clarify what you actually want.

For one: you're conflating classes with content.Â For two, you're conflating "work their way up to content" with "put in hours of tedious effort on old level 50 MSQ stuff." Â Its a matter of wanting to be able to play the current game, not the two year old version of the game for six months in order to catch up.Â That's an entirely fair expectation for the purchase of the game and its most recent expansion.Â It is not an expectation of buying the game, suddenly being gifted a maximum level character of the desired class, and geared to the point of being able to clear raid content. Â

How many MMORPGs have actually required full completion of the previous expansion to touch the new one?Â That is a genuine question since I am entirely unaware of any (but my experience in MMO's is not all that expansive).

shotgunbadger · **06-09-2015, 03:02 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:58 PM)Aaron Wrote: Something I don't understand and I hope no one takes this the wrong way. It's a honest question.Â

They announced HW needed 2.55 completion before they allowed pre orders right? Â Well, if you know you aren't gonna be able to play it, why pre order it along with the hype? Wouldn't it save a lot of hurt emotions and such to just wait till youre up to date and then buy the expac?Â

Unless you ordered for the dragon statue or something. Then that's different.

Well for me I'm hardly 'hurt', but I bought it because A) at the time the only info was that you needed to complete the main story in general so I figured that was a 'yea no duh to do the Ishgard stuff you gotta get there', and B) despite apparently being a big entitled baby who secretly hates this game I do plan on playing it and getting there so might as well, and C) I wanted to support the company that made one of the few MMOs I enjoy and wanted to help make sure the expansion is seen as a success.

Gegenji · **06-09-2015, 03:02 PM**

(06-09-2015, 02:57 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:54 PM)Aya Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:43 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them.
Mischaracterize much?Â Seriously Nat.

How am I doing that? Is it not the position of many people in this thread that they should have access to the new classes in heavensward simply by purchasing the expansion?

Lots of people seem opposed to the idea of finishing the 2.0 content to do so.

I think that is an accurate assessment, if its wrong, someone who is complaining please clarify what you actually want.

Personally, I'm not against having to do things to gain access to the new jobs. My issue is with how much is have to be done to unlock a level 30 job. My - continued - opinion on the matter is that it would not hurt to have the new jobs available to pick up at level 30 or 40.

So, you would still have to put in effort to get to those new classes in the expansion (i.e. getting a class to 30/40), but it would be a more reasonable amount than leveling a class to 50 and going through the entirety of the MSQ up to that point. Which is quite a lot of post-hitting-50 content and gear check choke-points (which will hopefully be helped by the new gear coming out?). Or, alternately, have the job you get after going through that be higher level... but that would likely conflict with the little job quest arcs.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-09-2015, 03:04 PM**

(06-09-2015, 03:02 PM)Aya Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 02:57 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: How am I doing that? Is it not the position of many people in this thread that they should have access to the new classes in heavensward simply by purchasing the expansion?

Lots of people seem opposed to the idea of finishing the 2.0 content to do so.

I think that is an accurate assessment, if its wrong, someone who is complaining please clarify what you actually want.
For one: you're conflating classes with content.Â For two, you're conflating "work their way up to content" with "put in hours of tedious effort on old level 50 MSQ stuff." Â Its a matter of wanting to be able to play the current game, not the two year old version of the game for six months in order to catch up.Â That's an entirely fair expectation for the purchase of the game and its most recent expansion.Â It is not an expectation of buying the game, suddenly being gifted a maximum level character of the desired class, and geared to the point of being able to clear raid content. Â

How many MMORPGs have actually required full completion of the previous expansion to touch the new one?Â That is a genuine question since I am entirely unaware of any (but my experience in MMO's is not all that expansive).

So yes, I was right, as I said, people don't want to have to complete the 2.0 stuff for heavensward. They think purchasing the game should give them access.

I never said it wasn't tedious. Nothing in that paragraph contests anything I said, it just a much more inefficient way of saying:

"People are annoyed they have to work their way up to new content, instead of just paying money and having it be made available to them."

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Heavensward Ilevel Requirements. Strange Design Choice?

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