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Verad · **06-24-2015, 02:56 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:53 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 02:44 PM)Verad Wrote: People are relying on this argument of investment, but I have to say that somebody who has played this game for a long time and has remained at a low level is showing a level of commitment that can't help but make me doff my hat towards them.

Imagine all the temptations of playing the game - the story of the MSQ, the content, the gear, the vanity items - in front of a person for such a long time, and for them to say "No, thank you, that would be out of character, for it would put me at a higher level" speaks of a dedication I can't help but admire.

But the emphasis on combat, on stakes, on story-building, all points to this being yet another variation of the same god damned argument people always have - "I will only trust a powerful character given it is done well," with "level" being another restriction on "done well."

Is that an argument you do not agree with? Do you trust powerful characters whether they are done well or poorly?

I am honest with myself - I recognize there is no done well or poorly. There is whether I like them or do not like them, which may have nothing at all to do with quality of execution. Certainly level has little to do with it, and I would ask that people who insist on viewing level as a metric of character power chastise the 60s for playing 15s as much as they do the 15s for playing 60s.

Dogberry · **06-24-2015, 02:57 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:46 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 02:40 PM)Dogberry Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 02:28 PM)Sin Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 02:11 PM)Dogberry Wrote: I tend to play out The Journey.

Dogberry started out as J. Random Bareknuckle Boxer in pit fights so mickey mouse he couldn't even hack it in The Bloodsands. He trained, and now he's a world class fist fighter. By no means a kung-fu master, but on par with someone on the professional boxing/MMA circuit for sure. He did the same with the spear, going from a Limsa Lominsan whaler, to a bonafide polearm facewrecker. I didn't just start out with Dogberry claiming to be Eorzea's Muhammad Ali. I was more interested in playing out his rise from a nobody to something more. The time I spent putting effort into the character was the time my character spent training in an 80's movie style montage kind of way.

Maybe I'm a giant jerk, but if you're a lowbie pugilist pulling the Ali shtick, the in character response from Dogberry will be to see all of that bravado as foolish bluster, and when you hit Z to pull out your Weathered Horas, he's going to see a thousand things wrong with your body mechanics.
So because the character is wearing weathered horas he's going to see things wrong with his body mechanics. Not just assume, nor think he sees, but literally you're going to assign wrong factors to the other characters mechanics because you know that that is a level 1 weapon and you've Inspected his level to be low?

There are names for that kind of behavior in RP. They're metagaming and godmoding.

The journey can be roleplayed without game mechanics.

Yes. If you're a level 1 Pugilist, in my eyes, your character is a level 1 Pugilist. To me, metagaming and godmoding is claiming your character has abilities it clearly doesn't have. If you can't be bothered to level up a job to at least a level where you can pull off a look that fits the job beyond "freshly made character", then I don't see why my character should recognize the skills yours claims to have.

If you're going to RP a character and not level them, why even subscribe to the game? You'd probably be a lot better suited doing forum RP. Gaia Online is over there, bro.

I'd like to present a question I'm honestly curious about given this statement, Dogberry: at what level would they have to reach to pull off that "not fresh" look?

Again, I'd like to use the busy working mom example - someone who only has enough time for an hour or two to hang our with her friends who all RP in FFXIV. She wants to RP a skilled swordswoman, let's say a Sergeant in the Flames or something. At what point would she lose the "freshly made character" stigma and be honestly considered as the character she would like to play in that short window of time she has to play it?

It's a unique situation, certainly, but I'm just curious where your opinion stands on it.

This is a fantastic question.

Can the character equip gear that would be practical for a skilled swordsman to wear? It doesn't take a whole lot of levelling to achieve that look. So the character claims to be a Flame Sergeant. Can the character equip the Flame Sergeant set? That's only what, level 20 gear? It's entirely believable for a level 20 character in Flame Sergeant gear to be a skilled swordsman, and be taken seriously in character. I don't think "skilled swordsman" is an outrageous claim for a character of that level and gear. "Legendary swordsman" would be pushing it.

But if you're not even willing to level up your flame sergeant character to that level, don't start barking orders in my ear like your Gunnery Sergeant Hartman.

Arik · **06-24-2015, 03:00 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:40 PM)Dogberry Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 02:28 PM)Sin Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 02:11 PM)Dogberry Wrote: I tend to play out The Journey.

Dogberry started out as J. Random Bareknuckle Boxer in pit fights so mickey mouse he couldn't even hack it in The Bloodsands. He trained, and now he's a world class fist fighter. By no means a kung-fu master, but on par with someone on the professional boxing/MMA circuit for sure. He did the same with the spear, going from a Limsa Lominsan whaler, to a bonafide polearm facewrecker. I didn't just start out with Dogberry claiming to be Eorzea's Muhammad Ali. I was more interested in playing out his rise from a nobody to something more. The time I spent putting effort into the character was the time my character spent training in an 80's movie style montage kind of way.

Maybe I'm a giant jerk, but if you're a lowbie pugilist pulling the Ali shtick, the in character response from Dogberry will be to see all of that bravado as foolish bluster, and when you hit Z to pull out your Weathered Horas, he's going to see a thousand things wrong with your body mechanics.
So because the character is wearing weathered horas he's going to see things wrong with his body mechanics. Not just assume, nor think he sees, but literally you're going to assign wrong factors to the other characters mechanics because you know that that is a level 1 weapon and you've Inspected his level to be low?

There are names for that kind of behavior in RP. They're metagaming and godmoding.

The journey can be roleplayed without game mechanics.

Yes. If you're a level 1 Pugilist, in my eyes, your character is a level 1 Pugilist. To me, metagaming and godmoding is claiming your character has abilities it clearly doesn't have. If you can't be bothered to level up a job to at least a level where you can pull off a look that fits the job beyond "freshly made character", then I don't see why my character should recognize the skills yours claims to have.

If you're going to RP a character and not level them, why even subscribe to the game? You'd probably be a lot better suited doing forum RP. Gaia Online is over there, bro.

To me, this just feels like the equivalent of seeing a guy at an expensive restaurant dressed in cheap jeans, converse sneakers and a T-shirt, assuming that he's clearly "poor"-- and then watching him drive away in his Rolls Royce.

Just like real life, you can't judge someone nor their standing in life entirely by what they look like or what they're wearing.

Hammersmith · **06-24-2015, 03:03 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:57 PM)Dogberry Wrote: This is a fantastic question.

Can the character equip gear that would be practical for a skilled swordsman to wear? It doesn't take a whole lot of levelling to achieve that look. So the character claims to be a Flame Sergeant. Can the character equip the Flame Sergeant set? That's only what, level 20 gear? It's entirely believable for a level 20 character in Flame Sergeant gear to be a skilled swordsman, and be taken seriously in character. I don't think "skilled swordsman" is an outrageous claim for a character of that level and gear. "Legendary swordsman" would be pushing it.

But if you're not even willing to level up your flame sergeant character to that level, don't start barking orders in my ear like your Gunnery Sergeant Hartman.

See, this is another example of less "Level represents RP" and more "If you don't level to the amount I expect you don't have the social capital to spend to make your concept valid my eyes"

Which is a different kettle of fish I feel from "Does level represent ability IC"

Edit: Actually it might be a different perspective on how level represents/warrants IC behavior instead. Hrrrrm!

Blue · **06-24-2015, 03:05 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:54 PM)Sin Wrote: I don't know where Gaia online is bro, but here's my character.

Show Content

Spoiler

Would you assume he is a god amonst men?

I wouldn't.

That 0 Botanist though, that's unforgivable. He's certainly not a god amongst the Greatloam Growery.

EDIT: On the topic of the grand company gear though, does it mean that people will scowl if I use an alt that claims to be Ishgardian even though he isn't past 2.55 and as such has no access to Ishgard? Food for thought.

McBeefâ„¢ · **06-24-2015, 03:12 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:56 PM)Verad Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 02:53 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 02:44 PM)Verad Wrote: People are relying on this argument of investment, but I have to say that somebody who has played this game for a long time and has remained at a low level is showing a level of commitment that can't help but make me doff my hat towards them.

Imagine all the temptations of playing the game - the story of the MSQ, the content, the gear, the vanity items - in front of a person for such a long time, and for them to say "No, thank you, that would be out of character, for it would put me at a higher level" speaks of a dedication I can't help but admire.

But the emphasis on combat, on stakes, on story-building, all points to this being yet another variation of the same god damned argument people always have - "I will only trust a powerful character given it is done well," with "level" being another restriction on "done well."

Is that an argument you do not agree with? Do you trust powerful characters whether they are done well or poorly?

I am honest with myself - I recognize there is no done well or poorly. There is whether I like them or do not like them, which may have nothing at all to do with quality of execution. Certainly level has little to do with it, and I would ask that people who insist on viewing level as a metric of character power chastise the 60s for playing 15s as much as they do the 15s for playing 60s.

I don't think people are arguing that. I think they're saying they take it as a measure of trust and investment into the game. People can play what they like, and I have no issues with high level people playing high or low, or vice versa.

I agree there is no subjectively 'done well' or 'done poorly'. I accept strong characters that I like, same as you. However, as I've said, putting yourself under the power of a stronger character required a deal of trust, as once you've acknowledged them as being powerful, you're no longer in complete control of the scene.

OOC Char level is just one of many metrics I use to make that decision.

Lilia Lia · **06-24-2015, 03:12 PM**

There are a lot of OOC gameplay aspects of our characters that we turn a blind eye to.Â Most characters are not the WoL, obviously, but even moster are not actually White Mages, Black Mages, whatever other distinctive special traits you get.Â The fact that we spend time "offline" and aren't always around.Â The fact that our characters disappear into "duties" and fight monsters and whatnot.Â MOST characters are nowhere near as powerful as their OOC versions.

The amount of gil is another good one.Â Can I play a poor character if I actually have 10 million gil laying around?Â How about a wealthy one if I'm below average by way of means?Â

If I want to play a character who is a martial arts master, do I have to play them as a grasshopper until I get them to level 50 at which point I retcon them?Â And then I just RP having become a master of the martial arts in a matter of days?

Gegenji · **06-24-2015, 03:13 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:57 PM)Dogberry Wrote: This is a fantastic question.

Can the character equip gear that would be practical for a skilled swordsman to wear? It doesn't take a whole lot of levelling to achieve that look. So the character claims to be a Flame Sergeant. Can the character equip the Flame Sergeant set? That's only what, level 20 gear? It's entirely believable for a level 20 character in Flame Sergeant gear to be a skilled swordsman, and be taken seriously in character. I don't think "skilled swordsman" is an outrageous claim for a character of that level and gear. "Legendary swordsman" would be pushing it.

But if you're not even willing to level up your flame sergeant character to that level, don't start barking orders in my ear like your Gunnery Sergeant Hartman.

Supplementary question. Let's say they add enough vanity gear that you can make a level 1 character look like a Flame Sergeant. Preordering the next expansion gives you a set of dye-able Sergeant-looking gear that is all level 1. Said working mom does this and dresses up her level 1 swordswoman - wearing that gear and her starting sword.

Would she be considered any less than if she had leveled to 20 and gotten the "proper" Flame Sergeant gear?

Or, alternately, someone decides to play a Highlander refugee street-brawler who runs around in shorts and sandals looking for a good fight. He can easily looks the part he is trying to RP - a streetwise, underhanded fist-fighting thug - even at level one. He even goes so far as to portrays his Weathered Hora as being a set of knuckles he's been using for years and have worn down to the point that they look weathered - since he can't afford to replace them and they have sentimental value. Would he be considered "too fresh" to be taken as a weathered brawler with years of combat under his (possibly made of rope) belt?

Verad · **06-24-2015, 03:16 PM**

(06-24-2015, 03:12 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I don't think people are arguing that. I think they're saying they take it as a measure of trust and investment into the game. People can play what they like, and I have no issues with high level people playing high or low, or vice versa.

I agree there is no subjectively 'done well' or 'done poorly'. I accept strong characters that I like, same as you. However, as I've said, putting yourself under the power of a stronger character required a deal of trust, as once you've acknowledged them as being powerful, you're no longer in complete control of the scene.

OOC Char level is just one of many metrics I use to make that decision.

There are a number of people who have specifically said that they view level as more than a metric of investment - although I think it's a dubious method of determining investment, at best, for both the logic I've described, however absurd, and for the more practical and likely reasons others in the thread have mentioned.Â

So yes, some people in the thread are arguing that. They're just not on this particular conversational track.

But I disagree. You are in complete control of the scene at all times, regardless of character power. But you are in control in a way that people who value immersion find to be uncomfortable and refuse to acknowledge. You, as a player, always have the ability to walk away, ignore, and retcon as necessary, regardless of IC character power.

Faye · **06-24-2015, 03:25 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:27 PM)Hammersmith Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 01:36 PM)Faye Wrote: I'm of the unpopular opinion that I think in-game achievement has some bearing on your characters strength. It's just difficult to bump into a total stranger with a level five character with godlike strength!!!!11 and be okay with them beating my level 50+ decently geared character into the ground. There are plenty of exceptions, of course, like if someone can give me a good reason why their level five character is so much stronger than mine, or if they just legitimately outsmart/outdo my character, if it was an alt made for a storyline I'm participating in, etc.

That's not to say I apply it as a rule or anything, though (and it's probably really not much of an issue since most of my characters aren't instigators or eager for a brawl, and I almost never do combat RP). It's just that if some freshly-made character suddenly shows up and starts throwing punches at my character for no reason, I'm not going to take it very seriously, though there are other factors that play into that, such as suspicion that such a character may just be an alt someone made for the purposes of drama or harassment.

Now...here's a funny thing.

I don't think this is because you think level has bearing on RP. Â I think it's because you use level to judge the kind of social capital someone might be deserving. Â No one wants Nublet McEdgelord to waltz into a gathering and take a giant combat shit on it with a freshly rolled level 1 Char in vanity armor who can suplex Titan Train and is also the last Black Mage of a Royal Allagan Bloodline.

So are you against that because you think that levels actually matter, or because you think that at least having a level 50 char means they're invested in the server and RP enough to merit paying serious attention to?

It blends together for me, honestly. Levels don't mean much to me, but levels can indicate how much time, energy, and effort someone has put into their character, be it for the sake of RP or otherwise, which is what I do care about. I think Jancis summarized it well a couple pages back. If I'm going to invest in another person's character, it helps if their player has done the same.

Dogberry · **06-24-2015, 03:26 PM**

(06-24-2015, 02:54 PM)Sin Wrote: This is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on this forum.

How does your character even know the person is level 1? What even is level 1? Â How do you know its not a Kung Fu master using a Weathered Hora? What if it is and you just went and assigned a bunch of flaws to their stance and literally wrecked the person's intended character.

That might be what they mean to you, but they have slightly more concrete meanings... When you roleplay your character as having information that by the story they should not have then that's metagaming. Like knowing they are low level because you inspected them. Godmoding is when you establish factors as truth and become the sole determinant of the outcome of a story. Like flinging a punch and making sure it lands by putting it in your emote. Like saying that your character can see flaws in another character's stance despite whatever they are emoting.

You can't really determine why people want to pay 15 a month and play this game. A person could pay 15 a month to sit and look at the Forgotten Spring kitties and be fully within their right.

I don't know where Gaia online is bro, but here's my character.

Show Content

Spoiler

Would you assume he is a god amonst men?

I wouldn't.

If the character uses weathered hora to portray that their character is humble, and uses simple weapons, go ahead and use them. But if your character is using weathered hora because they literally can't equip anything else, then I don't feel your character can claim status as a legend. I interpret Level 1 as the point where your character devotes their life to a certain thing. They are the novice that has taken their first serious steps toward mastery. Everyone starts out making that decision. They will devote their life to mastery of the sword, or they're going to become a great fisherman. If you are skilled in something, and see a novice attempt the thing you're skilled in, you can immediately tell they are a novice. To make a character and role play mastery of a thing is truly godmoding. Emoting isn't just the be-all-end-all of RP for me, I guess. I consider my character something like a puppet, and characterization for puppetry goes a lot farther than sticking your hand in a sock and moving your hands.

You can do what you like with your $15, but don't presume upon my $15.

And to answer your question, I know nothing about you OOC, let alone, IC, so you could probably come up in any kind of gear you wanted, claiming to be anything at all, and my character could have no real reason to doubt you, even if you were claiming to be a bard and your character was actually a paladin or something. But, what's that thing where you use OOC knowledge to gain something over on another character called? I think it's called... metagaming?

Sin · **06-24-2015, 03:38 PM**

(06-24-2015, 03:26 PM)Dogberry Wrote: If the character uses weathered hora to portray that their character is humble, and uses simple weapons, go ahead and use them. But if your character is using weathered hora because they literally can't equip anything else, then I don't feel your character can claim status as a legend. I interpret Level 1 as the point where your character devotes their life to a certain thing. They are the novice that has taken their first serious steps toward mastery. Everyone starts out making that decision. They will devote their life to mastery of the sword, or they're going to become a great fisherman. If you are skilled in something, and see a novice attempt the thing you're skilled in, you can immediately tell they are a novice. To make a character and role play mastery of a thing is truly godmoding. Emoting isn't just the be-all-end-all of RP for me, I guess. I consider my character something like a puppet, and characterization for puppetry goes a lot farther than sticking your hand in a sock and moving your hands.

You can do what you like with your $15, but don't presume upon my $15.

And to answer your question, I know nothing about you OOC, let alone, IC, so you could probably come up in any kind of gear you wanted, claiming to be anything at all, and my character could have no real reason to doubt you, even if you were claiming to be a bard and your character was actually a paladin or something. But, what's that thing where you use OOC knowledge to gain something over on another character called? I think it's called... metagaming?

As to the first half of your post, I think we simply see roleplay differently. I see it as more pure storytelling and you see it as more of a hybrid of gameplay and storytelling. That's fine, live and let live.

As to the second half of your post, I think somewhere along the line you must've misunderstood what I was saying, I'm assuming that by your play of words you're hinting at an instance of me metagaming. That is quite frankly impossible in a discussion wholly outside of the game and roleplay. I don't think you quite understand the concept.

All I was trying to say is that I don't think people should take levels as a metric for nearly anything, but specially not IC power. But even if they do, then they should specially not go ahead and godmode that the character has flaws because you inspected them and they are low level.

My point by displaying my own character is showing you the inverse. My character is (was) max level nearly everything, but I roleplayed him as an average swordsman with no other skills. The only way you could know this is through my emoting.

The opposite should be true as well. That's my point, character's shouldn't assume people with all 50's are gods, and people with one character at level 20 is a novice. Either way is bad, because either way is metagaming, and you specifically have stated that you will hands down emote that your character sees flaws and can outright know the person is a novice. Not by judging their emotes, or making a value call based on their clothes IC'ly, but by inspecting their character and declaring because of that OOC knowledge that your character knows they're a novice.

It is my opinion that that is an egregious mistake to make in a storytelling format. Specially if we're trying to be respectful of each other's characters.

Dogberry · **06-24-2015, 03:46 PM**

(06-24-2015, 03:13 PM)Gegenji Wrote:
(06-24-2015, 02:57 PM)Dogberry Wrote: This is a fantastic question.

Can the character equip gear that would be practical for a skilled swordsman to wear? It doesn't take a whole lot of levelling to achieve that look. So the character claims to be a Flame Sergeant. Can the character equip the Flame Sergeant set? That's only what, level 20 gear? It's entirely believable for a level 20 character in Flame Sergeant gear to be a skilled swordsman, and be taken seriously in character. I don't think "skilled swordsman" is an outrageous claim for a character of that level and gear. "Legendary swordsman" would be pushing it.

But if you're not even willing to level up your flame sergeant character to that level, don't start barking orders in my ear like your Gunnery Sergeant Hartman.

Supplementary question. Let's say they add enough vanity gear that you can make a level 1 character look like a Flame Sergeant. Preordering the next expansion gives you a set of dye-able Sergeant-looking gear that is all level 1. Said working mom does this and dresses up her level 1 swordswoman - wearing that gear and her starting sword.

Would she be considered any less than if she had leveled to 20 and gotten the "proper" Flame Sergeant gear?

Or, alternately, someone decides to play a Highlander refugee street-brawler who runs around in shorts and sandals looking for a good fight. He can easily looks the part he is trying to RP - a streetwise, underhanded fist-fighting thug - even at level one. He even goes so far as to portrays his Weathered Hora as being a set of knuckles he's been using for years and have worn down to the point that they look weathered - since he can't afford to replace them and they have sentimental value. Would he be considered "too fresh" to be taken as a weathered brawler with years of combat under his (possibly made of rope) belt?

Another fantastic question.

I suppose this comes from my penchant for RPing actual game content. If I met this character in Ul'dah, and they came across as an authority figure, I would most definitely treat them as such. That ends when they leave the city and they are et by a 'bon. That would likely lead to snarky remarks about how they'll make anyone a Flame Sergeant these days oo-rah hooray Maelstrom.

In the second instance, it's entirely possible to play a streetwise, underhanded fist-fighting thug at level 1. Characters lead lives before we create them, and if that's been his life so far, it's fine, people can spend years in mediocrity and obscurity before they make their major break. Level 1 for me represents the first break from mediocrity. The point at which your character first shows a spark for greatness, and it can happen at any point in someone's life. You can claim years of experience, but not mastery. I have years of experience playing the guitar, and I can shred reasonably well but I am by no means a master on the level of Yngwie Malmsteen. If I lived in an guitar-based MMO, I would say the moment I make a breakthrough in my playing from "hobbyist" to "amateur" would be the point at which I hit level 1.

Dogberry · **06-24-2015, 03:48 PM**

(06-24-2015, 03:38 PM)Sin Wrote: Not by judging their emotes, or making a value call based on their clothes IC'ly, but by inspecting their character and declaring because of that OOC knowledge that your character knows they're a novice.

Can you show me where I said this?

Melkire · **06-24-2015, 03:49 PM**

...when did being respectful of others' characters become a requirement or a communal expectation?

I'm totally down for respecting others' rights to RP what they want, to spend their $15 and make use of it the way they want, etc. ... but to me, that doesn't translate into a necessity to respect someone's character.

I'm going to laugh at the interdimensional traveler who is Pinkie Pie from MLP:FiM reincarnated as a Miqo'te and runs around town declaring such. I can't help that. That has to do with my preferences. I won't try to shut them down; it's their time, their money, and their fun. That, I can and will respect, and I'd hope everyone would feel the same. That said? I will quietly remove myself from the vicinity so that I can roleplay in a separate space from them so as to avoid clashing.

Conversely, folks can feel free to make fun of my characters and laugh at them / diss them / etc. Hell, at times I roleplay a lore-breaking LOST-smoke-monster zombie. That's absolutely ridiculous and I don't expect anyone to respect that character... but it's there for folks who want to roleplay with it, and I won't force that character on anyone, nor do I ever expect others to be okay with it or accept it or spend time anywhere near it.

EDIT: tl;dr, I respect players, I don't necessarily respect each and every character concept. That's just me, though, as a person.

Poll: How important is OOC level/Achievement? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Not important at all.	55.56%	60	55.56%
Somewhat important.	37.04%	40	37.04%
Very important.	7.41%	8	7.41%
Total		108 vote(s)	100%

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